Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

[bballa48]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

No Privacy, you inspired me to make the thread ;)

[NoPrivacy]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

Haha, glad it was done. I was considering making it myself .. But wouldn't have been made as clearly outlined :P

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

I didn't get a chance to join the discussion/argument until it was over, but I'll make a contribution.

The polyrhythmic 12th/8th combination in the first screenshot really isn't too relevant in terms of difficulty, because you can just string it together like any other 32nd pattern and get away with it 99% of the time. The pattern is awkward, I will give it that.

The second half of the file is where the difficulty is really justified, and it's not because of the chart... it's because of the frame placement. Some jacks combined with terrible frame placement make for some tough AAA difficulty, but overall, the patterns aren't too terrible to someone who has an indifference in how things feel.

I'm willing to level with the 73 opinion, but no higher than that.

[j-rodd123]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

then maybe car sax needs to be moved down to 73 lol

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

then maybe car sax needs to be moved down to 73 lol

Doesn't Car Sax force a ton of 16th/12th polyrhythms with jacks and other really rigid patterns? At least Pitch Black is smooth in the first half (or more) of the song, haha.

[j-rodd123]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

idk....for someone of my way less skill level, i find car sax much easier and the scoreboards reflect that

sry not trying to derail thread, just think it was necessary to mention

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

The constant polys in Car Sax are pretty annoying to stay consistent on if you lose your groove, but I didn't find the patterns themselves forcing anything incredibly rigid. I'd need to replay the file but I remember rolling through pretty much everything -- the chart had really good flow (edit: looked at the replay, lots of minijacks strewn about throughout the polys, but converted as mostly four-framers so not really a big issue). Could potentially be bumped down to 73. Alex and I just thought 74 was the better fit prior to Car Sax being put in-game since it does get quite dense at times.

The second half of the file is where the difficulty is really justified, and it's not because of the chart... it's because of the frame placement.

Another one of the main reasons I was against old songs receiving frame treatment, it completely shifts the difficulty of the file (not just by one or two points). Pitch Black wouldn't even be above 70 if those two-handed two frame jacks were converted as three framers instead. Having an extra frame to work is massive, the speed at which the jack should be hit is essentially slowed down by 75bpm.

Again, I'd be fine with either 73 or 74 on this file. Less skill is required just to be able to read and play the chart compared to something quicker (albeit more straightforward) like Of Course you Need, or even 3020 (both 74s), but it can be argued that 'difficulty to AAA' places this a notch above the other 73s.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

idk....for someone of my way less skill level, i find car sax much easier and the scoreboards reflect that

sry not trying to derail thread, just think it was necessary to mention

You weren't derailing the thread at all. Also, I apologize if my response upset you or anything, it wasn't intended at all. Car Sax's scoreboards definitely do reflect a slightly easier file - I was just basing it off of how (I remember) the chart feels (felt).

And yeah Rob, you're right - it's a bit easier than I remember. I guess both files could appropriately fit in the 73 range, but enough about Car Sax -- this is about Pitch Black. It seems like a lot of people have come to at least agree with the file being bumped, and Rob/stavie both seem to be saying 73 regardless of other information, so this thread can probably be locked up and the file can be moved up to 73. Why prolong a discussion that has pretty much been resolved, you know?

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

Everyone's for the bump, yes, but I'll leave the thread open until we're able to discern whether it should be a bump to 73 or a bump to 74. There are at least three posters in the thread that say 74 (although some just state that while providing little to no reasoning), about three or four others that say 73, and some that just say 'bump it up' without choosing a number lol (although it's possible these posters intend to have PB bumped to 73 as per the thread title).

Although the file doesn't appear to mesh well with the current subgroup of 74s, which is largely made up of spikier, technical files, I do feel Pitch Black could possibly be on par with this group of songs if 'difficulty to AAA' is used as a rating metric. Current 73s are files like Chaosmaid, Brandish Headless, FFLBF...charts that require jumpstreaming speed and consistency to score well on, and I think some players that possess these skills would agree that Pitch Black is harder, comparatively, to score on.

Thoughts? Again, I'm fine with either rating, I just don't think we should lock and bump if there's a decent percentage of posters in the thread that would like something higher than 73.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

While AAA difficulty is a plausible metric, the rating will seem more incorrect to lower-level players that have no chance in AAAing the file -- if they compare this as a 74 to another 74 (NEED is a fantastic example in this case), they're likely to do much better on this song than they will for NEED because Pitch Black is a much slower song.

Full combo difficulty is the most effective metric for difficulty, but being that there's no judgment for extra taps being that there's no combo breaking judgment for extra taps, we have to try to best assume the difficulty for full comboing with as few boos as possible. This is a good explanation as to why songs with jacks should be generally rated higher because the game is geared toward combo-scoring (and even if it isn't, misses carry a somewhat severe penalty at 2.4 goods per).

Pitch Black might be overall harder to score on for those who have the speed required to do some of the higher songs, but that's not what we're looking for here -- we want to get the best general difficulty. Siding with 73.

[j-rodd123]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

i can't make an argument for 74, that was just my opinion based on how it felt in comparison to songs around its difficulty (probably subjective i guess then haha). But yea, i am lacking in technical knowledge for a good argument, and the people who say 73 make really good points so i'd be fine with that

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

i can't make an argument for 74, that was just my opinion based on how it felt in comparison to songs around its difficulty (probably subjective i guess then haha). But yea, i am lacking in technical knowledge for a good argument, and the people who say 73 make really good points so i'd be fine with that

There's absolutely nothing wrong in having subjective opinions about a file's difficulty, haha. It's just a matter of knowing when to use actual facts and statistics about the file when a change is officially being considered.

Most people don't know the technical knowledge of a file right away, they learn it through playing repeatedly or (in my case) they analyze the file out of interest/boredom. That's how I was able to make a strong argument for The Final Fantasy being moved up, because I randomly came across the file and decided to take a really detailed look at it. If you really want to see something changed, look at the patterns, the structure (heavy layering? light layering? inconsistent frame placement? etc) and the speed of the song. If you at least try to mention why you think the file should be changed, you shouldn't really be looked down at. If anyone thinks that your opinion is stupid after you've at least supplied appropriate evidence/statistics, then they're more than likely just being a prick.

This goes for everyone -- the more data that these threads have for justifying a change in ratings, the easier it is to see if the change is really necessary.

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Pitch Black (FFR Edit) [71 or 73]

While AAA difficulty is a plausible metric, the rating will seem more incorrect to lower-level players that have no chance in AAAing the file

This is what I was concerned about if the file were to sit at 74. I guess at 73, some higher level players will argue it's a bit more difficult than that, but rating discrepancies would be minimized as a whole.

Arguments for 73 are stronger than those for 74, so let's do that. Now if you'll excuse me, I have eight blueberry Eggo waffles waiting for me downstairs.