Averages = Lifebar penalty

[SK8R43]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

Who even mashes still? I mean FC's dont even matter anymore. PA> FC everytime.

[ggsnipes]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

I'm thinking about the Pro Pass idea, and it reminds me of the Ultimate Clear system in CROSSxBEATS, its a system that rewards more accurate players, so say a player with 100% rate on level 67 got 67 ranking points (taking the CxB example) a player who did a 97% run with ultimate clear would get 1.2 x 97% x 67 = ranking points towards rank.

So basically, if there was to be a Pro Pass mode, have it count towards skill rating. But have it make sure that normal clears cannot affect it. (so a better normal clear won't change the rating, a better pro pass will change it.)

I can elaborate if need be, since I'm still confused on what I just said.

[Trumpet63]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

I don't think that a life bar has any real purpose aside from being transferred over from FFR's source material. Thinking back to DDR, or any arcade-based rhythm game, I imagine that the whole purpose of a life bar is to drain your quarters.

In Guitar Hero, a pass / no pass system is useful because the game lacks useful, in-depth skill measurement (I mean c'mon, they don't even have accuracy).

Maybe I would buy the idea that it's a pretty powerful goal motivation, and it has some social-engineering uses, teaching players what level of accuracy is expected. But I mean, if that is the case, what level of punishment is correct? What even is the current system, does anyone know the specifics of the value of the full lifebar, or how much is given by getting perfects? If we want to improve the system, we ought to look at all of the variables.

[_Zenith_]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

I don't think that a life bar has any real purpose aside from being transferred over from FFR's source material. Thinking back to DDR, or any arcade-based rhythm game, I imagine that the whole purpose of a life bar is to drain your quarters.

It is more used as a guideline for players to know within a Rhythm Game engine which songs that certain player can survive, and for how long until stamina might give up. Personally, I like having a life meter to show my abilities on certain charts/patterns and where I need to improve within a specific section of any given song.

On FFR, you could actually replace the life bar entirely with a percent tracker, similar to that of OSU where it goes down with worse accuracy. That would mean not being able to physically fail out of a song, unless a maximum miss rule was upheld, like missing 20-30 notes in a row would fail you out. I wouldn't know the specifics on that myself but food for thought.

[Arch0wl]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

when you reach that high of skill, you tend to bullshit your way through patterns regardless.

well, no, not regardless. something in the game is allowing someone to bullshit patterns.

it is difficult (though possible, but not common) to bullshit patterns on beatmania iidx, but it is very possible to bullshit patterns on stepmania judge 4, and even more so on ffr with penalty-free averages.

bullshittability is determined by the game's penalizations, period.

[_Zenith_]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

well, no, not regardless. something in the game is allowing someone to bullshit patterns.

it is difficult (though possible, but not common) to bullshit patterns on beatmania iidx, but it is very possible to bullshit patterns on stepmania judge 4, and even more so on ffr with penalty-free averages.

bullshittability is determined by the game's penalizations, period.

You are strictly fixated on averages and not considering the life points of misses or boos. If you are mashing a song, the only reason why you are still surviving is because ALL of the anti timings do not outweigh in negative life point gain than what Perfects give in terms of life points.

Also, you can easily manipulate patterns and it isn't because of averages whatsoever. It is because of how lax the timing windows are, for example, jumptrilling a 1 to 4 stream. We can jumptrill it because you can manipulate the window to give you perfects when you are technically off by x millisecond on the window.

[Arch0wl]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

dude. I've helped design games like this. I've mash-combo'd some of the hardest songs. I know how mashing works.

if your rebuttal is "averages aren't the only issue, goods increase lifebar too much", then the solution for a pro pass mode is obvious, now, isn't it?

[Samus Aran]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

Make a hardmode pass that gives bonus credits!

[Arch0wl]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

Make a hardmode pass that gives bonus credits!

oh man that's a sweet idea 8)

[Trumpet63]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

So, why not also penalize first-frame goods as well, aren't they equivalent?

If I'm not crazy, this is the current arrangement of the seven frames of hit timing:

Good
Good
Perfect
Amazing
Perfect
Good
Average

[justin_ator]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

Is it G/G/P/A/P/G/A or is it G/P/A/P/G/G/A? I thought the second good frame was for late hits and that early goods were harder to hit consistently due to only one frame? Perhaps not though, been a while since I toyed with FFR timing.

On a side note, I would just like to throw out there that as a newer player the life bar was one of the big things that kept me interested in the game. Got that adrenaline going when I was fighting to stay alive on a Very Challenging song through the tough part in the middle or something. I think having a mode (or making the change) not only discourages mashing more but can also be a more interesting play-type.

[Untimely Friction]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

Oo oO remove boos. Make mashing CBs

[Arch0wl]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

On a side note, I would just like to throw out there that as a newer player the life bar was one of the big things that kept me interested in the game. Got that adrenaline going when I was fighting to stay alive on a Very Challenging song through the tough part in the middle or something. I think having a mode (or making the change) not only discourages mashing more but can also be a more interesting play-type.

that's the commonly shared experience for most players, including myself

lifebar/passing has been the prime goal/motivator across nearly all rhythm games in the 15-year history of this genre and the only exception is when passing is so easy as to be meaningless that players have to find a new metric to replace it, hence the urge to amp up passing to something meaningful again

it is, if anything, unusual for passing to not be a significant accomplishment

[SKG_Scintill]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

I want zombie dragons

[XelNya]

Re: Averages = Lifebar penalty

which matters more: OMGWTFT0k3n, or a sensible passing system?

I'm sold.

Do it plz.