Proposition

[jugglinguy]

Re: Proposition

There would need to be a way to act if one of the judges is incredibly late. Of course any new system needs tweaking. But I believe the quality of judging and more review notes would offset the bad points of a slightly greater wait.

This is the great part and the worst part. If FFR becomes all technical files, I quit.

[gnr61]

Re: Proposition

good idea all around IMO (absolutely including the 5 judges). ffr the game has been anti-innovation in a lot of respects, not least of all because almost all the power related to the game lies with one person who is quite adamant about listening to the opinions of basically no one.
there's always going to be things that can make this game better, and in my opinion adding more judges is one of them.

another would definitely be to admin JX lol. with all he does for the site, if there ever was someone who deserved it and could use it for good, it's him.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: Proposition

few things... i'm not all about dissecting posts and quotefests, because you can easily pick out small things from a large picture to warp what someone else says to what you want it to be.

small thing, not sure where my being an admin is an accident is from... conversation went like this:
synth: tass, i'd like for you to do this thing for the site
tass: uh, i'd love to, but i don't have access to do it
synth: wait, what? you aren't an admin yet? *access*
tass: ok. thanks, will have that done shortly.

and, i'm not opposed to tweaking at the judging process... just that whatever process we do use, i'm still going to have the final say. i'll speak with jx, blu, and shash privately... as they're the ones most familiar with this process and i trust and value their opinions. not to say i don't value other people's opinions, just that i know those 3 quite well and know they'll speak freely and honestly with me.

another point is what eastsideman brought up... who would new judges be? when i brought blu on board, i openly asked if people wanted to be judges. i privately contacted 3-4 people as well... and only 2 people wanted to do it, one of which being blu.

as far as jx... he does have level admin access.

as far as my contributions to the site over the years... i won't bother getting into it. clearly my ego doesn't need stroking, and those people that matter are well aware of everything i've done.

netjet: your system is a decent idea, but it wouldn't work. one main reason is that FFR files are private. as such, we try to keep who has the dwis/mp3s to a minimum. spreading them out to elected ("random"?) people would not be kosher with me. i need to have a level of trust with those users who gain access to these files. also include agreements we have with musicians in regards to distribution of their audio files to that reasoning. beyond all that, it would just take a long time.

AAAAND... one note about a central system... it might work. but it also would have a large potential for massive failure. with files being sent to me, i make sure they're all formatted properly and that everyone gets every file. not to mention, it's tedious to download 130+ files every few weeks. it would just be a royal pain in the ass to have to let 4-5 people into an account to all fend for themselves... mistakes would be likely and it would be unnecessarily time consuming.

and to hi19... if this thread is unrelated to our earlier conversation, then i apologize. it just seems like a pretty large coincidence if they aren't related. so you'll have to excuse my assumption.

finally, i really do not like a system with 5 potential judges where only the 1st 3 to submit notes are used. that promotes laziness... everyone gets 1 or 2 weeks into judging and have 100 files left, "oh, 3 other people will have it done soon, i might as well not play any more." that's BS. if someone is going to be appointed as a judge and have that responsibility, the least they can do is actually judge.

[Shashakiro]

Re: Proposition

jx doesn't have full access, he can't change swf's.

would be useful for fixing old noteskin issues--that was my job, but i'm sure he'd do it

also if you want another judge I'll do it again, since I don't forsee leaving at the end of the summer this time lol

[hi19hi19]

Re: Proposition

I'd gladly judge. I don't recall being asked last time, which would explain why I didn't volunteer. And of course, that bodes extremely well for how my current offer is going to be recieved...

But the offer stands, I would like to judge.

[Shashakiro]

Re: Proposition

p.s. Every judge should play every file. What's the point of having more judges if you don't get their opinions? To make the process faster? Terrible reason IMO.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Proposition

kk fully thought out response: (tl;dr version- stuff's happening, tass won't be happy, oh well)


I'm not sure how Tass got into the position of "uber final say" but I do know that it doesn't have to stay that way. I mean, face it, Tass, in the current system, you are useless.
-Your reviews add nothing to the mix (95% of them are "what so and so said")
-The organization of submissions could be handled by a script. Problem solved.
-Any "filtering" service your "reviews" provide could well be accomplished by what boils down to a group vote among the judges. A collective group will know well enough if a so and so song warrants a v2 or not, if we have enough remixes of so and so other song. Which seems to be the only two things you really look for.

In economic theory, you're what we call a middleman. You add no valuable service other than shuffling the goods around, and it comes with a higher price than if it goes straight from source to consumer. By cutting out you, as the middleman, the files touch the fewest hands possible on their way to the game.
Filemakers -> judges -> queue.
As opposed to
Filemakers -> Tass -> judges -> Tass -> queue.
It's just simply going to be faster.

I propose it will work like this. A group of well respected judges, say, Shash, jx, and blu, are going to get the files off a central area, which is curated by a script. Out of Shash, jx and blu, Shash and jx are both far better players than you, and all three are better steppers. All three are generally respected for their knowledge about simfiles and their helpful reviews. Makes sense that they judge, no?
Each one plays all the files and posts reviews. Files are queued by 2/3 or 3/3 results. Simple as that. Someone with dB access such as jx can add the files and make news posts and whatnot.
You, as Tass, don't have to do ANYTHING. You can even take all the credit, since it was obviously you who got this whole thing to this point, right?


Now, this will probably not sit well with you. Understandable. You could either stay "in the loop" by talking to the official judges and trying to influence them, or you could do what you should have done from the beginning: learn what a good file is, make some files of your own, and work to become an official judge the old-fashioned way.

By being good at reviewing files.


If any of this is confusing to you, I'll be glad to explain in more detail.

[gnr61]

Re: Proposition

i'd be willing to judge as well, i'm actually pretty qualified hehe (2 files in redfraction2, judged for ffr community pack and have some files in it).

[Zageron]

Re: Proposition

"it is still born out of the fact that I rejected one of your song choices for stepping"

If this is reffering to a taste in music, I object greatly. Just because 'Tass' doesn't like 'X Genre' of music or 'X sound of music' means it can't be in the game? Please correct me if I perceived this the wrong way.

[Shashakiro]

Re: Proposition

tass rejected a file for being an internet meme because he doesn't want a lot of the same internet meme in the game

it's pretty understandable really

[Tasselfoot]

Re: Proposition

so, shash and i just spoke a bit. and shash will be judging along with blu and jx for the next batch. with 3 highly qualified and awesome judges, it seems only fair that 2/3 need to + a file before it gets to me for final approval... and i'll be less strict in my judgings of the files that get to me.

hopefully that will at least appease those who are somewhat concerned with the current judging process.

i think we can all agree that the goal is to have the best files get in game... regardless of how that happens. i'm confident that re-adding shash as a judge is a positive step in that direction.



edit: Zag, specifically... it's a Never Gonna Give You Up 8bit remix. we already have 1 remix of the song in-game (ReRicked) and a 2nd one in queue (Fluity Loops). I strongly stand by the fact that we don't need a 3rd NGGYU remix in FFR.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Proposition

tass rejected a file for being an internet meme because he doesn't want a lot of the same internet meme in the game

it's pretty understandable really

As much as I love the song and as much as I love my file for it, I can see why that descision was made and I can't day I disagree with it too much.

I just wish it weren't THE ALMIGHTY TASS handing down his verdict from on high.

If it came from a group of people who all agreed it was unnessecary, I would definitely take less issue with the descision.

so, shash and i just spoke a bit. and shash will be judging along with blu and jx for the next batch. with 3 highly qualified and awesome judges, it seems only fair that 2/3 need to + a file before it gets to me for final approval... and i'll be less strict in my judgings of the files that get to me.

hopefully that will at least appease those who are somewhat concerned with the current judging process.

i think we can all agree that the goal is to have the best files get in game... regardless of how that happens. i'm confident that re-adding shash as a judge is a positive step in that direction.

This, I can live with. For sure. Thank you.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: Proposition

the only people who judged the easy batch were myself and blu. and blu was only looking at quality of file. he didn't even know there was a NGGYU mix in queue... and he isn't really supposed to be looking for that stuff. that's part of my role in the process. my judgment and wisdom.

and, good. i'm actually happy with the change as well. so good all around.

[Zageron]

Re: Proposition

Thank you, for correcting me. I'm glad you rejected a NGGYU file. x.x

[Shashakiro]

Re: Proposition

Yay, happy to be back on board.

I will say that the one thing Tass does best is stuff like that--verifying permission, rejecting songs that are not appropriate for whatever reason, and other things unrelated to the direct quality of the file itself--mostly things that I don't care about/wouldn't spot, and I'm sure it's not different for blu and jx. So in that sense, this new system definitely has the potential to work even better =)