Chrono Trigger Analysis

[remedy1502]

Here is the analysis of Chrono trigger done by MrRubix:

Originally Posted by MrRubix

Glitch layout (the spaces aren't showing up in the arrows but you get the idea):

*Around 298 combo*
<
<
>
^
V
<Glitch
>
>
<
V
^
>Glitch


*Then again at around ~307 combo post-Glitch #2*

^Glitch
>
^
V
<Glitch

>
^
V
<Glitch
>
^
V
<Glitch

< >
< >
< >
< >Glitch Glitch

(You can verify these locations yourself -- play the file normally and you'll see where the misses occur).

When I refer to a Normal arrow, I refer to an arrow that is just fine -- your standard, correctly-working arrow. A Glitch is an arrow that looks normal but really has an extra 0-framer with it (think two arrows fused into one slot with 0 distance between the two). When I refer to a general arrow number, I am referring to visible arrows (which include both Glitches and Normals, as in, what the arrows WOULD be excluding 0-framers if this file were glitch-free)

When you hit Perfect, a glitched arrow will show you judgment of 1 Perfect, 1 Miss (hit too soon and you get a Good/Miss or an Average/Miss). Either way, you WILL miss because you cannot technically press the same key twice simultaneously in the same spot to hit two arrows occupying the same space. There are eight glitched arrows in the whole song, and therefore you will get a minimum of 8 misses. This is not up for debate at all.

If you completely miss a glitched arrow, you actually miss 2 since you miss the seemingly Normal arrow and the 0-framer.

However, here's where things get strange. The glitched 0-framers are somehow dual-yielding. It was my understanding that the 0-framers are accessable due to timing irregularities of dual-fused arrows in the FFR engine.

When two arrows are slightly apart in a jack, you all know that timing windows overlap such that, given an early-to-late timing window of Averages->Goods->Perfects->Goods:
0 Framer: Miss + Perfect at best... theoretically
1 Framer: Average + Perfect at best
2 Framer: Good + Perfect at best
3+ Framer: Perfect + Perfect at best

For example, a 4-framer means that one of the Perfect windows for the first arrow of a jack is dominated by the early Average window of the second arrow. If you wait too long you allow the second arrow to get its timing window within reach, and so hitting the first note too late means you interact instead with the second arrow, yielding a miss on the first. This is what causes Av-Misses on 4-framers. Therefore, a 0-framer means every single frame of the first arrow is dominated by the frames of the second. Thus it would imply that hitting a 0-frame jack means one of the arrows will be totally ignored no matter what you do. However, this logic only seems to apply for spaced-out arrows where one is clearly before the other. When two arrows occupy the same space, it's like the game engine doesn't know how to assign priority. However, like low-framers, a Miss is usually assigned when you try to hit the "first" arrow too late, and this is no different from a 0-framer case, but the difference is that since the two arrows are one, you can technically hit the same arrow twice. It's like the game engine lacks a case-exception for this, and at this point, the game mechanics start to work differently.

This is why 8 Goods is not a minimum for the song -- you can hit a Glitched arrow as a Perfect (and at this point you will get a miss because of the aforementioned game mechanic), but then the arrow occupying the same space can be hit again. The key is to hit the Glitch arrow as early as possible which getting a Perfect, and then hitting the "same" arrow again as it moves PAST the early spot to a later spot STILL within the Perfect window. Notice that if you just hit the arrow once, you'll see another arrow slide on by with a Miss, and this will still happen if you hit the arrow twice, but this is indicative of the fact that 0-Framers can be hit twice -- once early, and once up its way up within the Perfect window. It's a very precise requirement to get two Perfects out of a glitched arrow, but it's possible (and on this song, using the background characters' heads as guides work well for determining when to strike early).

Main point: Glitched arrows with 0-framers will give you inevitable misses, but they also act as free extra arrows -- at best you can squeeze 2 Perfects + a Miss out of a Glitch arrow

Additional note:
Combos carry additional weight through glitched arrows. For instance, if you hit arrows 301-305 Perfect, before the glitch-miss of arrow 304 fully arises, you can actually add more than 304 to your combo even though you got a 304 combo in reality (since arrow 304 is the source of the miss). You can verify this by setting autofail to something just a bit higher than 304 Perfects and getting a Perfect on arrow 304 and its 0-framer in addition to arrow 305. You'll notice that even though you visually should have a 304 combo, you can get something like 305 or even 306 if you want the right arrow bad enough. This is why 315 is possible later but VERY hard to get. I don't even bother with it, because I usually end up with spatterings of Goods and Averages trying to roll the arrows JUST as they are available for hitting. I've never gotten a 315 but I have gotten a 314.

Regardless, if you only hit what is visible to you without regard for hitting the 0-framers hidden within the glitched arrows and went for perfect PA, you'd get 637 perfects and 8 misses. This means there are 8 potential Perfects to add through the 8 glitched arrows.

Now, the score you all saw was one with a 312 max combo, 637 Perfects, 4 Goods, 8 Misses, 1 Boo. People are saying it is impossible, but it is not -- just because some previous calculation was made that factored 8 Goods into a minimum doesn't mean it was a correct calculation. Try it yourselves.

In a perfect-perfect run, you'd get 645 Perfects and 8 Misses. This is the maximum achievable score (637 regular + 8 0-framers). Now, the Boo we can disregard because that was the result of a press where there was no arrow somewhere. The 8 misses is normal -- it means I did not miss anything else in that run other than the inevitable glitchmisses. 637 Perfects + 4 Goods is 641 total. This means I must have missed 4 0-framers because I did not hit 645. Now, I can tell you from memory that some of my Goods came from non-glitched arrows. I can't recall how many, but let me give you this hypothetical scenario that is equivalent in concept:

Say I get Perfects on absolutely everything, including the framers, up until Glitch #5. So far I have an additional 4 Perfects added to my score. The extra framers for Glitch #5, #6, #7, and #8 are ones that I miss entirely for whatever reason. Then I get a random four goods on normal arrows before the song ends. Now, if I hadn't hit the 0-framers for Glitches #1-#4, the extra four goods on normal arrows would mean I'd have 633 Perfects with the 4 Goods from the normal arrows for 637 steps total, which makes sense. But since I hit four of the 0-framers, I add 4 to this and get 641 (which indeed matches the total).

Therefore the score IS possible. And it did take me many more tries than 2 to achieve. Due to heavy BS calling, sometimes I either boo out/refresh the screen, and sometimes I just get lucky. My accuracy is usually pretty precise.

Now, the score. 660950 was the number. You can verify this in the picture I posted. Now, Smitty claimed the score breakdown was BS because rank 2 was somehow only achievable with a 313/314 combo or more, or something like that. But let me remind you:

"Each 1 combo is worth 1000 points, each perfect is worth 550, each good is worth 275, each average is worth 55, each boo is -20, and each miss is -310. Hope that helps." - From the Absolute Zero token post

Since every arrow was hit in this run plus the hidden arrows that contribute to each combo, a max combo of 312 means a base of 312,000, plus 637*550 + 4*275 - 8*310 - 1*20 = 660950.

Score is legit and it all adds up quite nicely.

The highest possible score then is a little uncertain, because a 315 combo would definitely put you on the upside, but you'd probably need to suffer an Average for it to get it in time before the Miss registers (which happens FAST). So the best possible score is probably 315 combo with 644 P 0 G 1A 8M 0B for a grand theoretical total of 666,775.

And yeah, I have been playing a little bit longer than most of you think, just not under any alias or anything. I'm not really a guy who came out of nowhere -- I've been familiar with many of the songs here for a while, and by looking at where glitches came out of the arrow woodwork during an otherwise fine run, I knew where the problematic arrows existed. I just didn't know the terminology of "framers" at the time -- I kinda assumed they were just invisible arrows, but really they're just glitchy.

So there you have it. Hope that explains things.

If you want to refute any of it, go for it.

Sticky please.

[smartdude1212]

No.

[Sprite-]

sticky it. its actually correct. thats how im getting 315 almost every try now

[remedy1502]

Originally Posted by smartdude1212

No.

Yes.

[ledwix]

don't sticky it. put it in an already existent sticky. we have too many stickies anyway. put it in the "actual difficulties v2" thread. i think that thread should be renamed, too.

[Silver_Brian]

It's a bit too complicated for me, but it sure looks realistic.

[remedy1502]

Originally Posted by Silver_Brian

It's a bit too complicated for me, but it sure looks realistic.

I kinda get it, I'm gonna be trying it out tomorrow when people aren't asleep. But it probably works cause sprite got 315 twice tonight already.
EDIT: Lol missed sprites thing earlier. More than twice haha.

[macgravel]

Rubix: Scores
FFR: BS
Rubix: Vids
FFR: Maybe BS
Rubix: Screenshots
FFR: we buleev u
Rubix: Chrono Trigger score
FFR: OMG HE BS DELETE SCOAR
Rubix: Chrono Trigger Analysis
FFR: o we buleev u agaen

[Evascythe]

nice, macgravel

[hoochan]

I told you he was legit but you guys just wanted to ****ing believe that he was non legit. I'm glad that he explained it. Now you guys can get off his back.

[Coolboyrulez0]

Sticky please, and Rubix never was BS. I hope more people start to believe him now

CBR

[windsurfer-sp]

Perfect explanation of Chronno Trigger and his score.

Expect to see Mr Rubix in Tier 0 and please dont metion the word bs, near him when he does.

[hoochan]

I sure do hope that Shash comes back in a fiery rage and then Rubix and Shash will have an epic FFR score-off. That'd be insane.

[Kotarouchan]

I just want to know what your stats were when you got 664,170 because my calculations may or may not be correct.

[DarkbearX]

Originally Posted by Kotarouchan

I just want to know what your stats were when you got 664,170 because my calculations may or may not be correct.

He had 0-0-8-0

[Evascythe]

Originally Posted by hoochan

I told you he was legit but you guys just wanted to ****ing believe that he was non legit. I'm glad that he explained it. Now you guys can get off his back.

The only one being an idiot about this is smartdude. <.<

[Baka05Carl]

Originally Posted by Evascythe

The only one being an idiot about this is smartdude. <.<

nothings smart about him >.<

[Kotarouchan]

k, at least I know that I thought of the wrong one... you have to be really really fast to get perfect-perfect-miss on the 0-framers...

[hoochan]

Originally Posted by Baka05Carl

nothings smart about him >.<

He's just being stubborn :/

[windsurfer-sp]

Originally Posted by hoochan

He's just being stubborn :/

He's a good player and seems like a nice enough guy, but he cant look past the fact that Mr Rubix is good enough to do the highly impropable.

He will hopefuly get over it one day