Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance

coberst · 02-28-2007, 02:15 PM

Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance

“What will come of my whole life…Is there any meaning in my life that the inevitable death awaiting me does not destroy?”—Tolstoy

Meaning is number ONE. What wo/man fears most is extinction, which includes insignificance.

Wo/man wants assurance that their life has somehow counted; if not for her or his self then at least within the overall scheme of things. If there is some kind of “judgment day” then I want to be in ‘that number’ that matter. While alive I want to know that “I am somebody”.

Religion is our primary means for responding to that basic need to be somebody. Otto Rand says that all religions spring up “not so much from…fear of natural death as of final destruction.”

“It is culture itself that embodies the transcendence of death in some form or other, whether it appears as purely religious or not…culture itself is sacred, since it is the “religion” that assures in some way the perpetuation of its members.”

Our dichotomy of sacred and secular aspects of social life is an egregious error. There is no such thing as a distinction between sacred and secular in the symbolic affairs of sapiens. Sacred is that which transcends the natural world while secular is that which is of the natural world. In the world of symbolic affairs such distinctions do not hold.

“As soon as you have symbols you have artificial self-transcendence via culture. Everything cultural is fabricated and given meaning by the mind, a meaning that is not given by physical nature. Culture is in this sense “supernatural” and all systemizations of culture have in the end the same goal: to raise men above nature, to assure him that in some ways their lives count in the universe more than merely physical things count.”

Self-transcendence, i.e. transcending nature via culture, does not provide a simple means to deny the primacy of death; the terror of death still lurks beneath the veneer. We have shifted the fear of death onto a new level of anxiety; we must “now hold for dear life onto the self-transcending meanings of the society in which we live…a new kind of instability and anxiety are created.”

In our attempt to deny evil, i.e. death, we bring a new and grotesque form of evil. “It is man’s ingenuity, rather than his animal nature, that has given his fellow creatures such a bitter fate.” Wo/man has, through ingenuity, heaped great evil on the world; far greater than could ever be created by our animal nature.

Quotes from “Escape from Evil”—Becker

FoJaR · 02-28-2007, 02:46 PM

what's your point?

Kiro51 · 02-28-2007, 03:05 PM

He keep posting his thread on every forum he knows... and that 95% of people don't understand...

I understood ~~50% of your post. Use an easier vocabulary/sentence syntax if you want everyone to understand you.

FoJaR · 02-28-2007, 03:12 PM

no i understand it... it's existential bull****.

RandomPscho · 02-28-2007, 03:16 PM

Coberst could you please explain why death is evil?
I tend to see it as necessary, and for the most part, good.

Also meaning is not number one, it is for some people, not all.

Kilroy_x · 02-28-2007, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR

no i understand it... it's existential bull****.

Not especially.

Coberst...

Why not make one thread for all discussion about becker? You seem to be posting each new idea of his in a linear fashion as if you take breaks from reading his books just to do so.

FoJaR · 02-28-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Not especially.

sure it is.

tsugomaru · 02-28-2007, 05:27 PM

He's trying to argue that we are afraid of dying without accomplishing anything. I know I am.

~Tsugomaru

RandomPscho · 02-28-2007, 07:02 PM

No, he is assuming everyone is afraid to die and the fear/evil that comes from it.

Theres a long thread about the scared of death topic already.

**Reach** · 02-28-2007, 07:37 PM

I would say...

He's arguing more specifically than what some of you have said, that the seperation of religion and non religion is a bad idea. Religion as manifested into something that tries to make humans above nature brings an evil out of humans that is dangerous to our existance. Humans like to feel their existance in some supernatural sort of sense, has a universal meaning that will not be destroyed when you die. However, trying to transcend the natural power of death to become something that is ethereal brings unnatural evil to the world through segregation and misunderstanding of the natural world right around you.

As meaning is a human derivative, meaning is not inherent, but is created by the observer. Thus, the idea that a human can transcend to a level of universal meaning, to me, seems to think too highly of our race.

The parallels with organized religion here are pretty obvious xD

Coberst's posts are difficult to read primarily because he never finishes his post. He basically sticks ideas together with quotes and doesn't make any definite conclusions. He sometimes hints at them, so usually you can interpret it, but in every which way to sunday.

Aside from my interpretation here, there are at least 2 other ways to read this from what I can see. And undoubtfully more from other points of view.

coberst,

Put more of your posts into one thread, please. Most of your posts deal with similar topics that could all be posted in one thread.

slipstrike0159 · 02-28-2007, 10:33 PM

The only reason i think coberst posts this kind of thing in here is because it is an interesting read and it is more likely that we are going to appreciate it more than anyone else in other various places on these forums. Regardless, these forums are more geared towards active debate and it is hard to do that if there is no opinionated response to said writings and as such it is difficult to respond in any fashion other than "interesting read."

Coberst's threads would be much more interactive if he would simply respond to it or ask some kind of question related to the literature presented.

FoJaR · 02-28-2007, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reach

He basically sticks ideas together with quotes and doesn't make any definite conclusions. He sometimes hints at them, so usually you can interpret it, but in every which way to sunday.

Aside from my interpretation here, there are at least 2 other ways to read this from what I can see. And undoubtfully more from other points of view.

which is why i asked him what his point was.

coberst · 03-1-2007, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomPscho

Coberst could you please explain why death is evil?
I tend to see it as necessary, and for the most part, good.

Also meaning is not number one, it is for some people, not all.

Death is the ultimate evil because nothing more fearsome can happen to anyone than to have their life ended. An example might be how hard the prisoners in concentration camps tried to stay alive.

coberst · 03-1-2007, 02:57 AM

I write about important ideas that I think most readers are unfamaliar with. I hope that the reader will become curious about the idea and go to the books and gather the knowledge that will permit them to make a judgment about the matter in question.

The discussion forum is a great place to become conscious of ideas but is a lousy place to acquire knowledge. To become knowledgable one needs to go to the books. I suggest that every adult acquire a "Friends of the Library" card from a local college library so that they will have access to the kind of books needed if one is to become an enlightened citizen.

FoJaR · 03-1-2007, 11:50 AM

lol death is scary.

Kilroy_x · 03-1-2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coberst

The discussion forum is a great place to become conscious of ideas but is a lousy place to acquire knowledge. To become knowledgable one needs to go to the books.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Source texts are unbeatable when it comes to information acquisition, but at the same time without some form of discourse the meaning of the information is often lost on the reader.

If you were to actually use this forum to discuss the ideas in these books you would be doing an infinitely greater service than you are now, which is just to repeat the content of the books.

coberst · 03-1-2007, 01:10 PM

Kilroy

Writing essays is a great way to learn, I have found. Of course one must write an essay in order to communicate on the web.

Kilroy_x · 03-1-2007, 02:16 PM

You're missing the critical distinction. Essays are simply a way of communicating your thoughts. When you turn them in for review, they get 1 response. They're a one shot deal.

With dialogue, you can contest each individual point, and do so for as long as neccessary until a conclusion has been reached. Something that might be dismissed upon initial review might be later clarified and accepted.

I've found that conversations with college professors can often be more enlightening than classes with them.

02-28-2007, 02:15 PM	#1
coberst FFR Player Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 256	Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance “What will come of my whole life…Is there any meaning in my life that the inevitable death awaiting me does not destroy?”—Tolstoy Meaning is number ONE. What wo/man fears most is extinction, which includes insignificance. Wo/man wants assurance that their life has somehow counted; if not for her or his self then at least within the overall scheme of things. If there is some kind of “judgment day” then I want to be in ‘that number’ that matter. While alive I want to know that “I am somebody”. Religion is our primary means for responding to that basic need to be somebody. Otto Rand says that all religions spring up “not so much from…fear of natural death as of final destruction.” “It is culture itself that embodies the transcendence of death in some form or other, whether it appears as purely religious or not…culture itself is sacred, since it is the “religion” that assures in some way the perpetuation of its members.” Our dichotomy of sacred and secular aspects of social life is an egregious error. There is no such thing as a distinction between sacred and secular in the symbolic affairs of sapiens. Sacred is that which transcends the natural world while secular is that which is of the natural world. In the world of symbolic affairs such distinctions do not hold. “As soon as you have symbols you have artificial self-transcendence via culture. Everything cultural is fabricated and given meaning by the mind, a meaning that is not given by physical nature. Culture is in this sense “supernatural” and all systemizations of culture have in the end the same goal: to raise men above nature, to assure him that in some ways their lives count in the universe more than merely physical things count.” Self-transcendence, i.e. transcending nature via culture, does not provide a simple means to deny the primacy of death; the terror of death still lurks beneath the veneer. We have shifted the fear of death onto a new level of anxiety; we must “now hold for dear life onto the self-transcending meanings of the society in which we live…a new kind of instability and anxiety are created.” In our attempt to deny evil, i.e. death, we bring a new and grotesque form of evil. “It is man’s ingenuity, rather than his animal nature, that has given his fellow creatures such a bitter fate.” Wo/man has, through ingenuity, heaped great evil on the world; far greater than could ever be created by our animal nature. Quotes from “Escape from Evil”—Becker

02-28-2007, 02:46 PM	#2
FoJaR The Worst Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: space ghost is dead to me Posts: 2,816	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance what's your point? __________________

02-28-2007, 03:05 PM	#3
Kiro51 FFR Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Reims, France Age: 33 Posts: 214	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance He keep posting his thread on every forum he knows... and that 95% of people don't understand... I understood ~~50% of your post. Use an easier vocabulary/sentence syntax if you want everyone to understand you. __________________ O Last edited by Kiro51; 02-28-2007 at 03:11 PM..

02-28-2007, 03:12 PM	#4
FoJaR The Worst Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: space ghost is dead to me Posts: 2,816	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance no i understand it... it's existential bull****. __________________

02-28-2007, 03:16 PM	#5
RandomPscho FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Age: 32 Posts: 504	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance Coberst could you please explain why death is evil? I tend to see it as necessary, and for the most part, good. Also meaning is not number one, it is for some people, not all.

02-28-2007, 05:27 PM	#8
tsugomaru FFR Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: The stars come to my aid. Posts: 3,962	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance He's trying to argue that we are afraid of dying without accomplishing anything. I know I am. ~Tsugomaru

02-28-2007, 07:02 PM	#9
RandomPscho FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Age: 32 Posts: 504	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance No, he is assuming everyone is afraid to die and the fear/evil that comes from it. Theres a long thread about the scared of death topic already.

02-28-2007, 07:37 PM	#10
Reach FFR Simfile Author Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Canada Age: 37 Posts: 7,471	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance I would say... He's arguing more specifically than what some of you have said, that the seperation of religion and non religion is a bad idea. Religion as manifested into something that tries to make humans above nature brings an evil out of humans that is dangerous to our existance. Humans like to feel their existance in some supernatural sort of sense, has a universal meaning that will not be destroyed when you die. However, trying to transcend the natural power of death to become something that is ethereal brings unnatural evil to the world through segregation and misunderstanding of the natural world right around you. As meaning is a human derivative, meaning is not inherent, but is created by the observer. Thus, the idea that a human can transcend to a level of universal meaning, to me, seems to think too highly of our race. The parallels with organized religion here are pretty obvious xD Coberst's posts are difficult to read primarily because he never finishes his post. He basically sticks ideas together with quotes and doesn't make any definite conclusions. He sometimes hints at them, so usually you can interpret it, but in every which way to sunday. Aside from my interpretation here, there are at least 2 other ways to read this from what I can see. And undoubtfully more from other points of view. coberst, Put more of your posts into one thread, please. Most of your posts deal with similar topics that could all be posted in one thread. __________________ Last edited by Reach; 02-28-2007 at 08:14 PM..

02-28-2007, 10:33 PM	#11
slipstrike0159 FFR Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: In the shadows behind you with my assassin's blade waiting to strike Posts: 568	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance The only reason i think coberst posts this kind of thing in here is because it is an interesting read and it is more likely that we are going to appreciate it more than anyone else in other various places on these forums. Regardless, these forums are more geared towards active debate and it is hard to do that if there is no opinionated response to said writings and as such it is difficult to respond in any fashion other than "interesting read." Coberst's threads would be much more interactive if he would simply respond to it or ask some kind of question related to the literature presented. __________________

03-1-2007, 02:57 AM	#14
coberst FFR Player Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 256	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance I write about important ideas that I think most readers are unfamaliar with. I hope that the reader will become curious about the idea and go to the books and gather the knowledge that will permit them to make a judgment about the matter in question. The discussion forum is a great place to become conscious of ideas but is a lousy place to acquire knowledge. To become knowledgable one needs to go to the books. I suggest that every adult acquire a "Friends of the Library" card from a local college library so that they will have access to the kind of books needed if one is to become an enlightened citizen.

03-1-2007, 11:50 AM	#15
FoJaR The Worst Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: space ghost is dead to me Posts: 2,816	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance lol death is scary. __________________

03-1-2007, 01:10 PM	#17
coberst FFR Player Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 256	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance Kilroy Writing essays is a great way to learn, I have found. Of course one must write an essay in order to communicate on the web.

03-1-2007, 02:16 PM	#18
Kilroy_x Little Chief Hare Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Colorado Age: 36 Posts: 783	Re: Sapiens Fear Extinction with Insignificance You're missing the critical distinction. Essays are simply a way of communicating your thoughts. When you turn them in for review, they get 1 response. They're a one shot deal. With dialogue, you can contest each individual point, and do so for as long as neccessary until a conclusion has been reached. Something that might be dismissed upon initial review might be later clarified and accepted. I've found that conversations with college professors can often be more enlightening than classes with them.

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