Multiple Universes?

[masterhickle]

From Stephen King's "The Gunslinger" :

"Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nuebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our own universe and our ownl ives, turning everything yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.

Think how small such a concept of things makes us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for a race of gnats among an infinitude of races of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see...what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?

Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not world but universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion nillion worlds flying off into darkness, in a chain never to be completed."
(The man in black speaking to the gunslinger)

I found this the most interesting passage in the entire book.

Is it possible that our universe, in its enormous size, is the equivalent of an atom in a blade of grass? Is it possible that within even grains of sand, there are multiple universes? Is it possible that there are worlds out there, in comparison, that much bigger than us, as we are bigger than the grains of sand, the blades of grass?

I think that such things are possible. But the real questions are, how can we know? Can we ever know?

[Snuffles1012]

I doubt we'll be able to know. Such things seem possible, and yet not possible:

The way he describes it seems just like a fractal image, one thing inside another, that inside another, that inside another, etc.
To compare, a universe in a universe in a universe in a grain of sand, and that grain of sand is in a universe.

And the smallest solid object know of is an atom, and in an universe there are even more than the superfactorial of a googol (assuming that the universe we are talking about doesn't go on forever) amount of atoms.

So, to sum this all up, how could infinite amouts of atoms fit inside one atom?Asuming that every atom is the same size.

The world may never know

[Reach]

I think we can rule out universes all around us.


We know the smallest practical measure of distance between two points is 1.6e-35 meters. Beyond this threshold quantum fluctuations between points in space become astronomical.

This essentially means it would be absolutely impossible for there to exist universes we can't see within things.


Now then, what if there are universes beyond ours? Sure. There probably is.


However, because of the laws of physics themselves, I highly doubt these universes exist within anything other than more space. This world where we are just some part of some string as a part of a piece of grass would have to have completely different laws of physics to achieve this, and since we are directly connected to this place, it should have the exact same laws of physics.

Thus unless there is some magical voodoo going on, no, we are not some tiny spec in a piece of grass and there are not universes inside of ours.

[johnnyhoney0]

This is the way I think about it:

Everything we absolutely know there is more than one of is contained within something larger, right?

We know that there are more planets than just earth, and that they are contained in a solar system, or a galaxy.

We know there are other galaxies, right? Andromeda is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. All the galaxies are contained within the universe.

All that having been said, let me bring up a few reasons why I don't think there is more than one universe:

Has there ever been any tangible evidence supporting the existence of the edge of the universe?

The word universe is similar to the word universal, which means something like all-encompassing. If that's true, then why would we call it the universe if there were more than one?

Lastly, if there are multiple universes, what are they contained in? Planets>>galaxies. Galaxies>>the universe. Multiple universes>> ??

[Icefenix45560]

http://www.hep.upenn.edu/~max/multiverse.pdf

Heres a nice little thing on multiverses/parallel universes

http://educate-yourself.org/zsl/para...s19nov04.shtml

Here also, is a test you can do at your own house to prove existance of multiple universes.

[masterhickle]

Not really reading that now, as it's 630am and I leave for school in 40mins, but it seems quite interesting.

Universe = 1 body. Multiverse = contains multiple universes. It seems possible that there are multiple universes, but we just don't have the means of finding out such a thing in our day and age.

Im definitely going to read that article when I get back from school.

[slipstrike0159]

The way i see it, being a large portion of space, the universe probably isnt INSIDE anything else. Although, if the whole Big Bang theory were correct, then are we just supposed to believe that in the middle of absolute nothingness, there was just a single dense sphere that decided to blow up, expanding atoms and elements into that nothingness? And if that were true, then that would mean that the places those atoms and elements havent reached yet would still be nothingness, and what is that exactly? Also, if you think of the universe of a shere and outside the sphere as being nothing, then that nothing is just going sit there until it is filled with matter. And why would it only be true that there was only one "Big Bang" if life has told us anything, it is that there are possibilites of more than one of anything being present somewhere else. So, realistically, it is almost impossible for there NOT to be another universe outside our own but the real question is, how many? The only probable reason as to why there would only be one universe is newtons law saying that an object in motion will stay in motion unless otherwise slowed or halted which could say that the big bang sent atoms on forever.
From my point of view, we are probably wrong to call it a "universe" because that would mean that there is an absolute amount of one. It is possible, however unlikely, that our own universe is inside something larger. Also, it is very probable that there are more than one, but my question is, if there were say 2, and the theory that they expanded forever, then what happens when they expand into each other? In any case, all of it is speculation and there isnt and probably wont be any way to prove it. Probably the only way you will ever know is if you believe that all will be revealed to you by god when you die, but that is another subject in itself.

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by Icefenix45560

http://educate-yourself.org/zsl/para...s19nov04.shtml

Here also, is a test you can do at your own house to prove existance of multiple universes.

You clearly don't understand how something is proven, if that "proves" multiple universes.

You also seem to not have read the whole deal, at the end of which the author explains that this theory is not supported by physicists, considering how it's not scientific.

Also: big laughs at the girl endorsing the ether theory.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[jewpinthethird]

You have to realize the "Universe" is only that which we know or will ever be able to know. Anything that lies outside or globe of understanding (or observation) is not considered apart of our universe. Therefore, one cannot rule out the possiblity of the existence of a Mulitverse, likewiese, one cannot prove its existence either.

[tsugomaru]

We cannot assume there is no such thing as another universe. Anything can be possible, examples:

A long time ago, people thought that God created Earth, one guy speculated against this and since then, people have had a different view of things.

People thought that atoms were the smallest things in the universe and we have proven that smaller things exist such as the proton, neutron, and electron and since then, even smaller particles exist, which are known as qwarks.

In conclusion, I can say that the idea of Multiple Universes is possible and until proven that this cannot be so, then it must exist somehow.

~Tsugomaru

[Tyren]

I can agree upon the fact that looking back in history most scientists didnt get it correct. Aristotle is a great example of this...great philospher but he hindered scientific thought for centuries. The point is everything we can attribute to this conversation is complete speculation considering the difficulty of the question. If you look at it from a mathematical point of view...if you expand upon our 3 dimensional universe into multiple dimensions...say...the 4th...6th...nth...how could anyone possible see that? Our eyes can only see in 3 dimensions...and we can only see the effects of time (4th dimension...its change in time...thus its derivative). To view this, we would have to look at our 3 dimension world as two dimensions, and expand into the 4th dimension like we would from two to three. The same goes for negative dimension. If we go to the origin of the universe...where ever that may be at 0,0,0...we could go inside that very point and theoretically enter negative dimension. Its a long shot on how you could relate it to reality, but if ive seen some mathematics that conceptually gives evidence towards it. If we did this to infinity and negative infinity, i think this could explain the fractalesque pattern that was used in the metaphor of the grains of sand in his book.

[richyrich55]

I think it's possible for there to be multiple universes but I also think that there is another planet (or more) just like Earth. I mean, if all the **** that created Earth was floating around in the solar system 4.5 odd billion years ago, there just has to be another planet the same if not, somewhat the same as Earth right?

[tsugomaru]

Lets totally go off topic. Drake's equation is there for us. We just need to plug in the numbers and we'll find the chance of a place that has intelligent folk.

And yes, anything is possible until proven so.

~Tsugomaru

[Laharl]

My question is what would it even matter?

Let's say that our universe is just some blip of an atom in the grand scheme of things. Why would this information change anything?

I think it's interesting how so many people try to make life, existence in general, completely insignificant with ideas like this. Even if our universe is just a "blade of grass", so what? We live all the same one way of the other. That information changes nothing. Life goes on just as it has since the inception of our world.

I have no problem imagining other universes. It might be, and if so, that's kind of neat. Hopefully we'll be able to communicate with them some day, and what a vast wealth of knowledge we can then share.

[flamingspinach]

Originally Posted by Snuffles1012

I doubt we'll be able to know. Such things seem possible, and yet not possible:

The way he describes it seems just like a fractal image, one thing inside another, that inside another, that inside another, etc.
To compare, a universe in a universe in a universe in a grain of sand, and that grain of sand is in a universe.

And the smallest solid object know of is an atom, and in an universe there are even more than the superfactorial of a googol (assuming that the universe we are talking about doesn't go on forever) amount of atoms.

So, to sum this all up, how could infinite amouts of atoms fit inside one atom?Asuming that every atom is the same size.

The world may never know

No, actually, there are far less than a googol of atoms in the universe, let alone "the superfactorial of a googol". Probably something like 20 orders of magnitude less than a google of atoms, by most estimates.

-fs

[-Izzy-]

Well, there is no way to figure this out so its probably best to not care.

[Tyren]

Laharl...i think you pointed out that life IS rather insignificant just there, even moreso if you were to take into consideration this thread**, and that we are just one of an infinite amount species doing pretty much the exact same thing with our existance. To me it really brings about the whole "purpose to life" aspect.

[Mystik3345]

Yes, I remember when I read the gunslinger, that page really got me thinking. Although, the idea of multiple universes in the first place was based on the idea that electrons move so fast that they can be in two separate places at the same time, thus somehow creating more than one universe. These theories have all been disproven, but are interesting nonetheless. Keep reading The Dark Tower series, the ending of the 7th book will drop your jaw for weeks! To answer your question, no we can never know but according to physics and the basis from which the idea was thought up in the first place, it is not possible.

[thyraxicmole]

okay heres my two sense.
guido says im stupid but im gonan be smart here.
think about it for a second. universe is everything. how can there be to everythings?! thats like having two holes. you know? two haves make a whole, but two wholes makes two wholes. thats fvcked up.

so yah. no other universe.

[RandomPscho]

It depends on the definition of the word.

In astronomy, the sum total of all things which can be directly observed or whose physical effects on other things can be detected.

There almost certainly is more than we can see out there.