Democracy: Ideal or not?

zildjian133 · 07-11-2006, 10:54 AM

Before anyone misunderstands our government we live in a Republic not a Democracy, we have few democractic features, which would be letting the people decide or vote on how everything is run. If we were truely democractic the majority of an idea always wins no matter how ethical or unethical it may be so in the middle east, in Iraq the Shiites and Sunii are going to be divided and if I'm not mistaken the Shiites are the majority and are the biggest threat to American's in Iraq so it seems pretty backwards for all the political talk to be about how great a Democractic state is when we aren't one and would most likely make a biased split population and more violence...

Tps222 · 07-11-2006, 11:23 AM

Actually, we live in a representitive democracy.

Pure democracy is a stupid idea in my opinion, even with educated people, it never works well.

zildjian133 · 07-11-2006, 11:32 AM

http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html

stealth · 07-11-2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

In constitutional theory and in historical usages and especially when considering the works of the Founding Fathers of the United States, the word "democracy" refers solely to direct democracy, whilst a representative democracy where representatives of the people govern in accordance with a constitution is referred to as a republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra....22Republic.22

They are both correct terms, I guess, just Republic is the word that was used by the founding fathers.

jewpinthethird · 07-11-2006, 01:48 PM

I think Democracy is a great system. And a Republic is a good system too, as long as the representatives actually represent their constituents. At one people, 59% of the population was unsatisfied with the job President Bush was doing, which means he was a failing at doing his job, which is to keep the people of his country safe and happy. Now, I am no attacking GWB, there's been enough of that, I just using him as an example. The problem with our Government is Capitalism. Our representatives are not listening to the demands of the people, but the demands of big business. It is the dollar that is driving every major decision in our Government.

People also dont realize that their power extents farther than just voting rights. The people do have the ability to purpose laws and have the right to speak with their representative.

mrb1019 · 07-11-2006, 04:40 PM

The US is a democracy, one cannot simply define democracy as government with rule directly by the people, there are numerous variations, the US being a representative democracy.

Prince_Kheldar · 07-11-2006, 05:05 PM

Hmmm...Let's see..U.S.A. is one of the few countries that use democracy. Considering that USA is the most powerful country in the world, yes, i'd say democracy is pretty damn good!

Prince_Kheldar · 07-11-2006, 05:07 PM

Dang, I'm in the mood for a good arguement

jewpinthethird · 07-11-2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_Kheldar

Dang, I'm in the mood for a good arguement

Fine then, what about China's growing economy? Economists estimate that within 10 years, China will be the world's dominate economic super power. China is ruled by a communist dictatorship. Huh? What now?

Of course, it hasn't happened yet, so dont use that argument.

mrb1019 · 07-11-2006, 11:52 PM

Not to "use that argument" however, the PRC is a mixed economy, although regulated heavily by the government, their economy has become and is becoming more market- oriented. The main reason for China's economic growth is its incorporation of capitalist elements into the economy such as allowing the formation of private businesses and an ease on government price regulations, without such reform their economy would have continued to suffer.

Anyways, democracy is not an economic system, so to rate democracy as ideal or not, based on a comparison of the economies of democratic nations wiht the economy of Communist China isn't valid.

(Just trying to contribute here not "attack" anyone.)

Psycho9003 · 07-12-2006, 12:24 PM

I can't say that I know much on the issue, but there is one thing that bugs me. Why is it that the United States in the past has tried to stop the spread of other forms of government, yet now we try to impose our own form on other countries, like Iraq? To me, it seems the U.S. is being hypocritical. I know this is kind of off topic, but does anyone here agree with me?

mrb1019 · 07-12-2006, 12:33 PM

Well, justification for stopping the spread of other forms of government, such as communism is the Truman Doctrine, in which the US vows to prevent the spread of communism, but not to overthrow existing communist governments. I disagree with Psycho only because the US attempts to stop the spread of forms of government that are threats to global peace, not just to prevent stronger nations from imposing their form of government on weaker ones, which the US does.

GuidoHunter · 07-12-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_Kheldar

Hmmm...Let's see..U.S.A. is one of the few countries that use democracy. Considering that USA is the most powerful country in the world, yes, i'd say democracy is pretty damn good!

It's more that capitalism is pretty damn good, not democracy.

That is, capitalism is more the cause of our power than democracy is. I wouldn't trade my form of government for anything.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Tps222 · 07-13-2006, 12:05 PM

mrb is right. Iraq has attempted to impose their regime on other countries for at least 10 years, referencing the Desert Storm conflict. With our heavy dependence on oil, and Iraq's corrupt goverment that abuses the economic and social state of it's country (Which is almost reason enough for us to get approval to intervene, looking back at the Geneva Convention), and the fact that Iraq could have had WMD's to seize oil rich nations(Such as Kuwait again) is a good reason to invade.

We attacked them to prevent them from spreading a corrupt system of government that would infect other innoncent nations, that who we are protecting. Our invasion has nothing to do with imposing our system upon that nation, our's just happens to be the best in all aspects of civilization.

B3NJ1 · 07-13-2006, 09:24 PM

Everyone has their disagreements which lead to conflict. Take us (United States) for example. We kill indians for land so we can expand. We look back at mistakes like this and think, "What was our government thinking." (At least I did when we did american history this year). A vast majority of the people at the time didn't think anything of what they were doing. Give the current history that is being made now a good fifty years and we may look back and think how wrong our political system/morals were. We also have the other problem of China being a superpower which was addressed by someone else. If/when we go to war with China for some reason or another, we would both be destroyed. The ony way I can think of a government working with the least war/hate/death/etc. is to become completely united as a planet under one world government. Like the U.N. except with more power and that would be the supreme government. I think I got a little off topic somewhere in there but if a world government was to be initiated it would not be perfect but it would be the best thing we could get.

So no, for the world governent, democracy would not be ideal. I'm still trying to work this all out in my head though. Give me a minute.

rant/10

trillobyite · 07-13-2006, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

I think Democracy is a great system. And a Republic is a good system too, as long as the representatives actually represent their constituents. At one people, 59% of the population was unsatisfied with the job President Bush was doing, which means he was a failing at doing his job, which is to keep the people of his country safe and happy. Now, I am no attacking GWB, there's been enough of that, I just using him as an example. The problem with our Government is Capitalism. Our representatives are not listening to the demands of the people, but the demands of big business. It is the dollar that is driving every major decision in our Government.

People also dont realize that their power extents farther than just voting rights. The people do have the ability to purpose laws and have the right to speak with their representative.

I disagree. I don't believe the very economic system of capitalism is at fault, but rather the corruption currently inherent in the US goverment and the fact that many congressmen are susceptible to bribes. Take the Abramoff case for example. With no doubt big business has an influence in government, but the fault lies, imo, much more in the politicians themselves than capitalism. After all, a controlled economy would probably not be purged of corruption or the abuse of power by a dictator. The most corrupt countries in the world tend to be countries in Central Asia (the Stans, bandgladesh etc), many of which, while capitalist in essence, have very little big business and are actually dominated more by agriculture (though metal production is important too), and hell, a quasi-bargain economy with market stalls and everything, at least in the non-major cities.

**aperson** · 07-13-2006, 11:31 PM

The best form of government is totally dependent on the collective mindstate and moral system of its constituents. Therefore, there is no 'ideal' government.

trillobyite · 07-13-2006, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson

The best form of government is totally dependent on the collective mindstate and moral system of its constituents. Therefore, there is no 'ideal' government.

But isn't that form, by definition, a democracy?

**talisman** · 07-13-2006, 11:53 PM

not if the mindset is "yay totalitarianism". it's not like people vote for what government they want. someone decides and others follow.

trillobyite · 07-14-2006, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman

not if the mindset is "yay totalitarianism". it's not like people vote for what government they want. someone decides and others follow.

My favorite paradox (and I guess an argument against democracy) is that if the people vote in a totalatarian government, which proceeds to, legally, amend and destroy democratic priviledges, then the democracy doesn't work in the end and the only way the people can achieve their will of liberty would be in revolution. That's why it's always important for checks and balances and the like, but even that can go awry.

Of course, what you said is right. Whatever government is decided upon by the general culture of the people, without democracy already in operation, will kick off and others will follow.

07-11-2006, 10:54 AM	#1
zildjian133 FFR Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: LOMG LOCATION@HERE Posts: 1,138	Democracy: Ideal or not? Before anyone misunderstands our government we live in a Republic not a Democracy, we have few democractic features, which would be letting the people decide or vote on how everything is run. If we were truely democractic the majority of an idea always wins no matter how ethical or unethical it may be so in the middle east, in Iraq the Shiites and Sunii are going to be divided and if I'm not mistaken the Shiites are the majority and are the biggest threat to American's in Iraq so it seems pretty backwards for all the political talk to be about how great a Democractic state is when we aren't one and would most likely make a biased split population and more violence... __________________

07-11-2006, 11:23 AM	#2
Tps222 FFR Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Age: 33 Posts: 6,167	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? Actually, we live in a representitive democracy. Pure democracy is a stupid idea in my opinion, even with educated people, it never works well.

07-11-2006, 11:32 AM	#3
zildjian133 FFR Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: LOMG LOCATION@HERE Posts: 1,138	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html __________________

07-11-2006, 01:48 PM	#5
jewpinthethird (The Fat's Sabobah) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Palm Springs, California Posts: 11,711	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? I think Democracy is a great system. And a Republic is a good system too, as long as the representatives actually represent their constituents. At one people, 59% of the population was unsatisfied with the job President Bush was doing, which means he was a failing at doing his job, which is to keep the people of his country safe and happy. Now, I am no attacking GWB, there's been enough of that, I just using him as an example. The problem with our Government is Capitalism. Our representatives are not listening to the demands of the people, but the demands of big business. It is the dollar that is driving every major decision in our Government. People also dont realize that their power extents farther than just voting rights. The people do have the ability to purpose laws and have the right to speak with their representative.

07-11-2006, 04:40 PM	#6
mrb1019 FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? The US is a democracy, one cannot simply define democracy as government with rule directly by the people, there are numerous variations, the US being a representative democracy. __________________ The more you know, the more you realize you know nothing.

07-11-2006, 05:05 PM	#7
Prince_Kheldar FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 14	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? Hmmm...Let's see..U.S.A. is one of the few countries that use democracy. Considering that USA is the most powerful country in the world, yes, i'd say democracy is pretty damn good! __________________ Handle the mistakes of others as gently as you would handle your own.

07-11-2006, 05:07 PM	#8
Prince_Kheldar FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 14	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? Dang, I'm in the mood for a good arguement __________________ Handle the mistakes of others as gently as you would handle your own.

07-11-2006, 11:52 PM	#10
mrb1019 FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? Not to "use that argument" however, the PRC is a mixed economy, although regulated heavily by the government, their economy has become and is becoming more market- oriented. The main reason for China's economic growth is its incorporation of capitalist elements into the economy such as allowing the formation of private businesses and an ease on government price regulations, without such reform their economy would have continued to suffer. Anyways, democracy is not an economic system, so to rate democracy as ideal or not, based on a comparison of the economies of democratic nations wiht the economy of Communist China isn't valid. (Just trying to contribute here not "attack" anyone.) __________________ The more you know, the more you realize you know nothing. Last edited by mrb1019; 07-12-2006 at 12:24 PM..

07-12-2006, 12:24 PM	#11
Psycho9003 FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 8	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? I can't say that I know much on the issue, but there is one thing that bugs me. Why is it that the United States in the past has tried to stop the spread of other forms of government, yet now we try to impose our own form on other countries, like Iraq? To me, it seems the U.S. is being hypocritical. I know this is kind of off topic, but does anyone here agree with me?

07-12-2006, 12:33 PM	#12
mrb1019 FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? Well, justification for stopping the spread of other forms of government, such as communism is the Truman Doctrine, in which the US vows to prevent the spread of communism, but not to overthrow existing communist governments. I disagree with Psycho only because the US attempts to stop the spread of forms of government that are threats to global peace, not just to prevent stronger nations from imposing their form of government on weaker ones, which the US does. __________________ The more you know, the more you realize you know nothing.

07-13-2006, 12:05 PM	#14
Tps222 FFR Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Age: 33 Posts: 6,167	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? mrb is right. Iraq has attempted to impose their regime on other countries for at least 10 years, referencing the Desert Storm conflict. With our heavy dependence on oil, and Iraq's corrupt goverment that abuses the economic and social state of it's country (Which is almost reason enough for us to get approval to intervene, looking back at the Geneva Convention), and the fact that Iraq could have had WMD's to seize oil rich nations(Such as Kuwait again) is a good reason to invade. We attacked them to prevent them from spreading a corrupt system of government that would infect other innoncent nations, that who we are protecting. Our invasion has nothing to do with imposing our system upon that nation, our's just happens to be the best in all aspects of civilization. Last edited by Tps222; 07-13-2006 at 12:08 PM..

07-13-2006, 09:24 PM	#15
B3NJ1 FFR Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: chair Age: 32 Posts: 266	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? Everyone has their disagreements which lead to conflict. Take us (United States) for example. We kill indians for land so we can expand. We look back at mistakes like this and think, "What was our government thinking." (At least I did when we did american history this year). A vast majority of the people at the time didn't think anything of what they were doing. Give the current history that is being made now a good fifty years and we may look back and think how wrong our political system/morals were. We also have the other problem of China being a superpower which was addressed by someone else. If/when we go to war with China for some reason or another, we would both be destroyed. The ony way I can think of a government working with the least war/hate/death/etc. is to become completely united as a planet under one world government. Like the U.N. except with more power and that would be the supreme government. I think I got a little off topic somewhere in there but if a world government was to be initiated it would not be perfect but it would be the best thing we could get. So no, for the world governent, democracy would not be ideal. I'm still trying to work this all out in my head though. Give me a minute. rant/10 __________________ Last edited by B3NJ1; 07-13-2006 at 09:28 PM..

07-13-2006, 11:31 PM	#17
aperson FFR Hall of Fame Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Houston Posts: 3,428	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? The best form of government is totally dependent on the collective mindstate and moral system of its constituents. Therefore, there is no 'ideal' government. __________________

07-13-2006, 11:53 PM	#19
talisman Resident Penguin Join Date: May 2003 Age: 37 Posts: 4,598	Re: Democracy: Ideal or not? not if the mindset is "yay totalitarianism". it's not like people vote for what government they want. someone decides and others follow.

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