Ehhen Doyadosu? Tengujiman (79 or 83)

[qqwref]

I'm actually not really sure where I'd place Ehhen but I figure 83 is pretty reasonable. Feel free to suggest other difficulties.

Here's a summary of the patterns in Ehhen. Keep in mind that the song runs at a constant 197 bpm before you read this. The beginning has a lot of hands, awkward 24th transitions, and tons of 24th minitrills and minijacks which make it really tough both to read and to hit. After a little break (hands and quads only, though) we have another similar section with 24th trills, minijacks, and pretty heavy jumpstream. Then after a little "break" (still with lots of jumps and hands, short js bursts, and some minijumpjacks) we get into a relatively long and extremely dense jumpstream section with a ton of jumps and even a few hands thrown in. There's a jumptrill in the middle of it too. The rest of the song is pretty similar to that, with some longish heavy jump/handstream parts and a lot of hands and jumpstream bursts even in the slower parts.

Sounds hard? I know I'm not a high D6 player, but I can name several songs in the 80-83 range that I can pretty comfortably play through with acceptable PA, and although I might not FC them every time, I can get through with far fewer goods and boos. Ehhen is not a song I can comfortably play through - my hands get tired very rapidly and I end up practically mashing to get through the densest sections. Let's compare this file to some similar medium-bpm jumpstream charts around that difficulty:
- honki sentai majirenjaa (79). Although the 24ths and minijack sections can be tricky, nothing in honki is nearly as tiring or dense as the long, difficult sections in Ehhen. Ehhen has sections that maintain the same speed as the hardest jumpstream bursts in honki for quite a while, and honki has a lot of breaks with easy 8th rhythms with very few 8th jacks. Almost everything that makes honki tricky to PA is in Ehhen somewhere, and honki doesn't require much stamina or speed to play through and get reasonable PA, whereas Ehhen requires way more stamina just to hit the patterns.
- Pants (79). I know a lot of the difficulty here is from the length, but just looking at that one hardest part (the long js section) against Ehhen's heavier jumpstream sections, Ehhen has a higher bpm (197 vs. 190) and is also denser. Neither song gives much of a break but I'd say that the extra density and the handstream aspect of Ehhen make that much harder. In addition, Pants is extremely straightforward with just jumpstream throughout, without even any minijacks, and Pants even repeats patterns, whereas Ehhen tires you out with minijacks, tons of hands, and 24th bursts and trills, going all over the place. Ehhen definitely needs more speed to hit, and is less straightforward too.
- Nomina Nuda Tenemus (81). This is a classic example of a heavy jumsptream file, at a similar bpm (195) to Ehhen. There is a section of roughly 600 notes, then a break, then a section of roughly 300 notes. Nomina is pretty dense but it has very few hands and anchorjacks, and except for those two quick 32nd bursts it's very straightforward, almost entirely consisting of straight jumpstream. The tps of NNT is pretty similar to that of Ehhen, but Ehhen goes on for much longer without much of a break and also includes lots of hands and a very tricky beginning section. The speed required for the actual jumpstream sections is similar, but Ehhen requires much more stamina and also requires the player to hit 24th trills and minijacks at the start, even before all the really heavy stuff comes.
- Little God Ch@nnel (83). This song also has jumpstream sections at 189bpm (including a lot of 32nds) and some tricky minijack parts. However, most of the 32nd sections can be either jumptrilled or just hit by doing a trill on each hand. While there are stamina issues involved in simply playing these patterns for 4 minutes, LGC doesn't even come close to the tps of Ehhen, and again Ehhen has very few real breaks whereas LGC has most of its difficulty in spikes, which are tricky to PA but not particularly hard to hit. Ehhen requires more speed to hit, more control to manage all the hands without dumping boos all over the place, and more stamina to simply power through the high-tps patterns for the entire file.
- Mourning the Lost (83). This song does have a higher bpm than Ehhen (somewhere like 210-220) and some pretty high-density sections, but it also has a lot of easier break sections. Mourning is also pretty repetitive, so that by learning how to do one section you can pretty accurately hit similar patterns throughout the chart. The stamina and speed required are counterbalanced by this repetitive nature and the breaks, so that you basically go all-out every once in a while and then wait for the next section. We can compare this to Ehhen which needs a little less speed but requires you to keep it up for basically the entire song, and also varies up the patterns so you can never really get used to hitting something in a particular way. I think Mourning is definitely an easier AAA because of this repetitive nature, and even though it has 2300 notes, which is normally considered long, that is not all that much different from Ehhen's 1600 notes. Ehhen is not a short file either.

After seeing these files, it looks to me like Ehhen doesn't fit in with the 79s at all, and I don't think it would be out of place at all in the 83ish area. Again, feel free to suggest another difficulty, but I do think 83 or so would make way more sense than 79.

[bmah]

approved thread

(great post btw qq)

[Lambdadelta]

You bring a good point, But I think it's more suited to be an 82 because it is similar in aspects to Lawn wake II.quick dense patterns. I found that for about 20 plays on ehhen it seems absurd but after you have a feel for it it's quite simple. a lot of patterns are cheatable.

I have an SDG on ehhen with a miss or two similar to my lawn wake II score. but my 83 score are ranging in the high teens to low 20s

Ps. When I first tried ehhen I had 100+ goods with 20+ avs misses and boos.

[RadiantVibe]

:O If you change it to an 83 then I'll have a Brutal AAA.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Low 81 at max. It's not harder than Halcyon and reaally not as hard as 12BB, ERB and Lawn Wake II.

[igotrhythm]

Hm...Halcyon's a really good comparison song for 81 or so. Let's look at them.

Halcyon[xi] has 32nd rolls, some dense 24th jumpstream sections, and ragebait transitions that could only be placed by the flaming hands of Bmah the Typhlosion. There's some chordstream that ends in hands, but the majority of this song's difficulty is in managing the bursts.

Ehhen, on the other hand, demands a high level of stamina, speed and reading ability to keep up with a jumpstream faster, denser and more technical than Pants and see it all the way through. At no point are you given something that could be construed as a break, whether it's making sure the hands are coherent, tricky little 2-frame minijacks, or simply toughing out the whole thing after your 10th or 15th restart. This is a sort of difficulty only ERB approximates with a few double jacks near the end.

I'm saying 82 for Ehhen because at least Halcyon[xi] has a couple of break points and MUCH slower 16ths.

[yo man im awesome]

I'd say 81, but put 12BB to 83 cause that shit's hard (why is it an 82 again?)

[bballa48]

Wtf is this. There is not a single pattern in this song worthy of an 80, let alone 83. No way. Jacks aren't hard. Jump stream is pants like at worst. Some awkward stuff for sure, but 83?? Molto vivace is an 83 guys.

Edit: agrees on 12 bar, 83 or 84 for sure

[Lambdadelta]

Originally Posted by bballa48

Wtf is this. There is not a single pattern in this song worthy of an 80, let alone 83. No way. Jacks aren't hard. Jump stream is pants like at worst. Some awkward stuff for sure, but 83?? Molto vivace is an 83 guys.

Edit: agrees on 12 bar, 83 or 84 for sure

Molto Vivace is also a BNS file and extremely unsynced and that is the only reason it is an 83

[mrpreggers]

an 83 lol 79 is perfect for this.. stop it

[bballa48]

Originally Posted by Lambdadelta

Molto Vivace is also a BNS file and extremely unsynced and that is the only reason it is an 83

I am saying Molto should be an 86 or 87. Synched, 82 or 83. My point is how on earth can we possibly compare this song to Molto? Molto has two sections that are damn near 89-90 status.

Edit: Preparing to get crucified for that comment. Not trying to derail the thread. Bottom line: there are some NASTY 83s, and this song just isn't close.

[Poison-]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Low 81 at max. It's not harder than Halcyon and reaally not as hard as 12BB, ERB and Lawn Wake II.

This. I don't see how it's harder than an 81.

[EzExZeRo7497]

Although I agree that Ehhen is harder than Pants, Honki and NNT (I don't think that NNT is an 81, but that's a different topic altogether), I don't think Ehhen should be an 83.

Compared to Mourning the Lost, the jumpstream in Ehhen (mostly) come in bursts than just long jumpstreams. Despite the fact that Ehhen is more dense, Mourning is faster overall, which balances it out imo.

I think this file compares more to Love and Justice than to any other file and Love and Justice is an 80, the density's around the same (and correct me if I'm wrong, around the same speed too) as Ehhen and it has 24ths. Although the intro of Ehhen is filled with minijacks/short 24th trills, it doesn't really feel harder than Love and Justice to me. I'd say this file is more of an 80, if not 81 at max.

[~Zeta~]

Halcyon is easier in the fact it isn't as demanding as Ehhen. There's large gaps and short runs in Halcyon; not even close in Ehhen.

Jumpstream in Love and Justice is just 4th jumps with scarce 8th jumps. It isn't dense by any means, especially compared to Ehhen.

I'm saying it's an 82. It doesn't fit with the NNT, Ketsarku, Halcyon, or Across Rooftops:

NNT is syncopated jumpstream (feels slower than Ehhen) with weird 32nds, but not as dense.

Ketsarku is pretty straightforward. It's burst based and ending make it difficult but significantly easier to play than Ehhen.

Across Rooftops has length and nothing notably -hard- before the ending.

Integraation's rated for it's intro and length but far less demanding than Ehhen.


When I say less demanding, it means the file requires less stamina, stress on skill, or persistence/composure to play it.

I just don't seeing it fit with those at all.

[One Winged Angel]

Originally Posted by EzExZeRo7497

Although I agree that Ehhen is harder than Pants, Honki and NNT (I don't think that NNT is an 81, but that's a different topic altogether), I don't think Ehhen should be an 83.

Compared to Mourning the Lost, the jumpstream in Ehhen (mostly) come in bursts than just long jumpstreams. Despite the fact that Ehhen is more dense, Mourning is faster overall, which balances it out imo.

I think this file compares more to Love and Justice than to any other file and Love and Justice is an 80, the density's around the same (and correct me if I'm wrong, around the same speed too) as Ehhen and it has 24ths. Although the intro of Ehhen is filled with minijacks/short 24th trills, it doesn't really feel harder than Love and Justice to me. I'd say this file is more of an 80, if not 81 at max.

Completely agree with everything said here. MtL is around 25bpm faster than Ehhen and also features some equally dense jumpstreaming sections. It should rightfully be at least two points higher in difficulty.

Personally I find Ehhen much more manageable than all of the 82s, all of which have one or two really spiky sections that completely decimate your PA on an average run (E-RB 64ths, Blue Rose minijacks, IHt80s 32nds and [14][23][14] jumptrills, Sleepmix gluts...) The only 'FGO' worthy section of this file is that 14.5 measure-long denser jumpstreaming section, although I suppose that section's a bit more difficult than anything present in the current batch of 79s.

80 or 81 (max), I really don't think this belongs with the current group of 82s. Most 81s are far more difficult to PA as well imo, although I won't make direct comparisons to any 81s however since outside of NNT (which is most likely going to be bumped down to 80), every 81's difficulty comes from patterns unrelated to jumpstreaming. Would be fine with 81 I suppose, even though it doesn't play like one to me.

[TC_Halogen]

83 seems very overinflated for this song. When considering the difficulty of a particular concept, length is an important comparison. The jumpstreaming in Ehhen is fast, but the difficulty lies in the fact that it holds the strong density at a constant pace. That's important for defending the difficulty with stamina purposes, but not with chart structure. A similar chart structure only continues to increase difficulty to a player if it pushes something at an extreme level, and the 16th jumpstreams having jumps an 8th of a note apart very frequently near the end is definitely a way to boost the difficulty for sure. Is it an extreme at this particular difficulty (79)? Compared to other 79s, yes. Compared to other 83s? Let's see.

Individual components? Can the ending jumpstream hold up in the old-FGO (78+) territory? With how long they last, absolutely. There's no doubting that this song is at least a 79, because those streams are very heavy and will probably give very seasoned players a problem. However, let's take a look at the 83's that we have:

Molto Vivace: difficulty seems somewhat focused on BNS, as the hardest components of the song are very short but manageable for very proficient players. Jacks are present as combo-breakers, which certainly deflate the FC/AAA counts (539/10).

Grand Gallop Chromatique: imbalanced chart; has everything possible in a chart - jumpstreams, streams, trills, runningmen, jacks, anchored jumpstreaming with jacks, flams, bursts, etc. The most extreme and hard to score on part of this song seems to be universal, and that's the jumpstream that forces a trill on one hand while balancing other taps. FC/AAA counts (357/10) are heavily deflated simply because this chart emphasizes every single skill, and leaves nothing untouched.

Necropotence: jump-heavy, somewhat driven toward technicality, but much of the difficulty comes from some tricky burst transitions. Despite being slightly more recent, it has respectable counts compared to the two previous older songs (339/9); this might be related to the fact that this was a round in the 4th official FFR tournament.

Little God Ch@nnel: another chart that is technical, but most of the difficulty is congested within an area of unlayered mini-jacks (strange rhythmic structure causes goods everywhere) or strange burst patterns (trill based and can be hit relatively well as long as you notice the one-handed trills for the harder patterns or tap slightly early for some of the easier ones). In addition, this rating is definitely dependent on length. If this song were shorter, it most certainly wouldn't be an 83. The AAA count (11 AAAs!) on this song is higher than the previous songs so far, and it's been out less time than the other three songs.

A Kidney Stone: I'm bolding this song as a point of emphasis and comparison, because Ehhen and Kidney Stone do have one very important thing in common, and that's heavy jumpstreams. Ehhen has a harshly layered introduction and much more technical introduction compared to Kidney Stone, whereas Kidney Stone has a slightly faster and more awkward pattern structure that is unlayered. However, a large majority of both of these songs have large jumpstream. The question is this - what is harder: Kidney Stone's 210 BPM 16ths with a jump every beat (occasionally an 8th for five consecutive jumps) or Ehhen's 197 BPM jumpstreams with 8th jumps very frequently put in place? Players of this level are probably comfortable with taking on 200 BPM jumpstreams, but that extra 10 BPM past that 200 gives people problems. In addition to this, Kidney Stone runs at 420 BPM with 8th notes, which adds an additional challenge of reading, and the jumpstreams are interrupted by very difficult burst transitions. The mathematical NPS of Kidney Stone's 16ths are higher than Ehhen's, but the patterns are a bit more forgiving.

Saddest RMX: speedy, bursty, and jumpy in the beginning. Not too hard aside for that nasty transition right before the big 32nd wall.

Mourning the Lost: Another important song for comparing, as it has 16th note streams with 8th note jumps for sequences that are about the same as Ehhen, if not slightly longer, but at a higher speed. The other areas in the song are barely comparable in difficulty to most FGOs, so it's fairly obvious that the song's difficulty is judged by the harsh jumpstreams and the difficult trill-heavy transitions that lead into jumptrilling that ends with a triple either two or three frames apart. In terms of combo difficulty, Mourning the Lost is considerably higher because of a noticeably higher density and BPM increase. To me, this is the benchmark file that we can use for Ehhen, because it has some areas outside of the toughest sections that cause problems, like the 8th note jacks balanced with occasional jumps with slightly inconsistent frame placement due to performance error.

Betrayal: fast and streamy, not really comparable in difficulty in my opinion.

Tenimuhou: long and technical, also really not relevant.

I'd be willing to settle with 81 on this file.

[LongGone]

Comparing this to A Kidney Stone, I don't see this as an 83. 80? Love and Justice is consistently dense jumpstream, with some tricky bursts now and then. The start of Ehhen has rough 24th trills, but after that its jumpstream/handstream without (tricky) minijacks or any silly bursts. Pants is a 79; and I find the JS in that harder than this because of how long it lasts and how its easy to mindblock it. Ehhen has pretty dense JS, but there are short breaks in between to give some air to the players

(I may be biased since I'm better at JS/HS than bursts)

[Lambdadelta]

Originally Posted by bballa48

I am saying Molto should be an 86 or 87. Synched, 82 or 83. My point is how on earth can we possibly compare this song to Molto? Molto has two sections that are damn near 89-90 status.

Edit: Preparing to get crucified for that comment. Not trying to derail the thread. Bottom line: there are some NASTY 83s, and this song just isn't close.

I don't find molto that hard really. yeah the jacks and trills are pretty hard to nail but that's besides the point.

It just doesn't fit with the 79's: Nai Nai 69,Reality, Level Skip, Magical Higan tour 2009 and Honki.
Are you guys really going to compare ehhen with these?

[krunkykai22]

The beginning is really the hardest part in my opinion (Maybe because I'm just really good at Jumpstream)

I'd say put this as an 81 to be quite honest ( Since it's an 82 as of right now )

Comparing to 81's the only song(s) that I think are harder in that range are Mephisto Waltz and 12 Bar bloops (And yes 12 bar bloops is indefinitely a harder chart then ehhen)

[Poison-]

Originally Posted by Lambdadelta

I don't find molto that hard really. yeah the jacks and trills are pretty hard to nail but that's besides the point.

It just doesn't fit with the 79's. The adventures of Lolo, Reality, Level Skip.
Are you guys really going to compare ehhen with these?

Lolo is a 77.