Queue/Batch Discussion Thread

[TC_Halogen]

I was capable of admitting that i was subjective too. Even kayla just mentioned an example for me doing so. Also, there were times when i even stated in my notes that i was going to be subjective. Also, i don't care what you say, if Kayla's file was accepted, i bet you wouldn't even be arguing about this at all.

And I never argued that, yet when I went on to try and discuss everything, you come out with a snotty comment, saying that I'm only trying to help and saying that you knew it was going to happen, when all I was doing was getting legitimate questions. It also seems that you're blind enough to notice the fact that I actually took advice from each judge who gave notes. But no, the word subjectivity makes everyone who judges ****ing cringe.

Anyone who states an opinion, including yourself, would think that they are partially right in some way am i wrong? Stop acting like you don't do the same damn thing.

which is why I made the whole post taking apart everything bit by bit, telling people why I disagreed with and like I said before, even asked QUESTIONS in the post as to how something can be changed, but yet again, when someone asks a relevant question, they get told to go screw off.


Tell me this, do you consider yourself a good judge? If so, give me a valid reason as to why you would be considered as one. Now ask yourself this, do you consider me a good judge?

Yes, I do. You want to know why? I play the game all the time, I communicate with all of the people who play the game actively, who actually care about the fun factor of the game, not the technical perfection all the time. They talk about how what files are good and what is not. I'm able to tell the difference between entirely subjective errors and what's not, and even through the errors that the files have, I at least have the common courtesy to try and point out something nice about the file rather than completely passing it off as a file that isn't worthy. Now for your second question. Do I consider you a good judge? Your notes are in-depth, you pick your spots like everyone else and you actually give two sides of things, but your notes constantly consist of things like changing layering rather than missing notes. You don't even point out a possibly problematic section, you just tell them to change, change, change, change. I'm sitting here just pointing out the errors and showing them what can be done to improve, not trying to act as a voice that forces unwanted changes. I actually sat there and said in the first sentence of my post that I was asking questions/stating points to help, but of course, you go off saying that you knew. Just like I knew exactly how the ratings would turn for a specific file that two people [++]'d. mhm

Oh so now you're assuming that I seek perfection of files. Have you even looked at my files and see any perfection in them? I know very well that no files are perfect. I have a right to state whatever opinion i want when judging a file.

No, but you're telling people to make changes regardless of what they have - I mean, you're pretty much telling people who have perfectly respectable files to completely restructure them. Going back to the previous batch, a file that had [+.][+.] from two other judges got completely got the can because you decided that, even though the file was "decent", you'd give it a [-] (referring to Wolf in Night, Human in Dreams). Everyone is allowed to have whatever opinion they want, but giving a rating that isn't how the file should be rated is completely unjustified.

What about your damn attitude? Everytime you disagree with something, you go and bash about it especially if involves your engaged wife. I care about this site a lot more than you assumed i do and i definitely help out people when i judge a file. So what, you think that i randomly come on this site not caring for everyone else and doing whatever i want? Look at the tier point thread, I've spent so much time working on it and when i post it, people didn't like it so i waited for people to give out suggestions and i listened to them. So now, i have to spend even MORE time making a better tier point system just for the sike of the community. For the record, you can be elitist too so stop acting like you're not at times.

Bold point #1: I really don't know what brings this point up other than the fact that I actually helped with the chart, yet you feel the need to take a cheap shot and bring in more babbling and BS.

Bold point #2: I don't even know why you're coordinating stuff within the game in the first place when you've been gone for who knows how long. That's my honest opinion, since you've been so kind enough to be abrasive when this entire thing could have been avoided had you actually discussed what I asked for and not made a snide comment. In my eyes, being a judge is a privilege, and not a job - if your attitude is going to be complete garbage to others, then you shouldn't serve in the community to begin with.

I'm done, don't respond, don't talk - I've lost interest in the game and the only thing I had left was stepping, but I can't even enjoy that knowing that people can't even tell the difference between objective and subjective errors. It's even more frustrating knowing that someone who I was relatively cool with has turned into a power-hungry, arrogant prick.

Peace - done with this drama, not worth staying up late in the evening to fight with people who just don't matter.

[Patashu]

also the focus of this kind of drama is way more on the end ratings, when it's the notes themselves that are often the most useful and valuable part of judgment

[AsphyxZero]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

:'(

I know how it goes dude, people hate on my skewed views too T_T

[bmah]

...fuck

[MarioNintendo]

Is it the magic of the holidays? The hate just suddenly stopped! (takes out flameshield)

[Plan_Bsk81127]

lol, quitters always quit. :P

[psychoangel691]

What I don't get is everyone's like oh judges opinions are important and have no issues with them expressing whatever they want to but yet if someone else posts an opinion on something that they find to be an issue they get bashed and get nothing but rude comments.

I remember when this game used to just be about fun. It's been 6yrs now since I signed up and have been playing this game and you know what even to this day there are some blue note songs I love playing because they were fun. I don't care that they aren't accurate because really what matters is if it's enjoyable to play. What the hell happened to this place that it got like this? It's ridiculous. Yes times change and things change but hell this is just too much at this point. If you reject a file because of something that's just opinion based then you're taking away from the community of people that will probably enjoy the file. Most of the people that play the game wouldn't even notice a huge error let alone something that's completely just a subjective thing.

What really should matter is what the majority wants not just what a few people think. This isn't a game that's being paid for it's just supposed to be fun and the fun is just really starting to get sucked out here anymore. Why is it that people can't respectfully disagree to something rather than making some kind of rude comment about what someone has to say? There's a lot of people that avoid coming into the community because of stuff like this and frankly that sucks because to me the more people around to chat with and play against the more fun this game is.

I really think there needs to be some sort of guidelines put in place to avoid extreme differences in ratings such as the + and - on the same file because that's just a huge difference.

[MarioNintendo]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

What really should matter is what the majority wants not just what a few people think. This isn't a game that's being paid for it's just supposed to be fun and the fun is just really starting to get sucked out here anymore. Why is it that people can't respectfully disagree to something rather than making some kind of rude comment about what someone has to say? There's a lot of people that avoid coming into the community because of stuff like this and frankly that sucks because to me the more people around to chat with and play against the more fun this game is.

I say bring democracy back?.. *hides*

[t-rogdor]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

I really think there needs to be some sort of guidelines put in place to avoid extreme differences in ratings such as the + and - on the same file because that's just a huge difference.

Regulating Judgment.

"If one judges +'s a file, none of the rest of you are allowed to give it anything lower than a +."

Are you ****ing kidding me?

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by t-rogdor

Regulating Judgment.

"If one judges +'s a file, none of the rest of you are allowed to give it anything lower than a +."

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Guidelines as in not taking off points for stupid crap like song choice which has happened. Things that people drop ratings for that make no sense to be rejecting for. Why exactly is that stupid?

[bmah]

Funny no one attempted to respond to the suggestions that tries to incorporate the varying degrees of subjectivity: see my post? See Patashu's post? Everyone's still arguing about this issue while not even attempting to analyze the possible solutions provided...

[t-rogdor]

Okay, I completely misunderstood you.


That said, while there are some things that would be bineficial to the community to make "illegal" to dock points for (say, bias against the stepper, "my computer can't register hands", "this guitar solo isn't color note aids", etc) song choice is actually a pretty good reason to dock points. We're kind of getting into midare-theory here, but would you honestly like to play a fun file if you loathed the song? If the song was the very bane of your being?

Song choice can make or break a file. Not sure about you, but no matter how "fun" the patterns are, I could never truly enjoy a file to a **** song choice.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by bmah

Funny no one attempted to respond to the suggestions that tries to incorporate the varying degrees of subjectivity: see my post? See Patashu's post? Everyone's still arguing about this issue while not even attempting to analyze the possible solutions provided...

Originally Posted by Patashu

solution to objective/subjective debate: make judges assign two ratings

I think I've already posted this

I had seen this one after making a post and ended up not replying with everything else that was getting thrown up.

The question is how would that even work? What would it be like a rating based on how you liked the file then the other based only on errors? Altho again that would bring us back to what's actually an error and not opinion.

Originally Posted by t-rogdor

Okay, I completely misunderstood you.


That said, while there are some things that would be bineficial to the community to make "illegal" to dock points for (say, bias against the stepper, "my computer can't register hands", "this guitar solo isn't color note aids", etc) song choice is actually a pretty good reason to dock points. We're kind of getting into midare-theory here, but would you honestly like to play a fun file if you loathed the song? If the song was the very bane of your being?

Song choice can make or break a file. Not sure about you, but no matter how "fun" the patterns are, I could never truly enjoy a file to a **** song choice.

But see the thing is with song choice not everyone likes the same songs. So how would one define a bad song to where it would pertain to everyone in the community? There are songs I despise on FFR, there were songs in my groups batch that I couldn't stand to listen to but I wont reject based on that because I'm willing to bet there's a bunch of ppl that will like that song. But a lot of the songs I hate people love on here so really it's not something that should hurt a rating of a file because that's just too vast of an opinion since we all have different tastes on music.

[Patashu]

I've posted this like a zillion times but the framework would be something like
-How well stepped is it? / How much could the purely technical quality be improved upon by fixes?
-How much did I like it? / Is it interesting to play, irregardless of errors?

errors along the lines of 'you missed a jump at blah blah blah' would lower the former rating, errors along the lines of 'you took a pretty boring approach to the song' or 'this pattern is aids to hit' would lower the latter rating. one could have a perfect technical score and a bad entertainment score if it's e.g. a xandertrax file (sorry lol), or a bad technical score and a perfect entertainment score if its ideas are great but it has lots of little missing notes because bad speakers were used or w/e.

this will lead to less worries about whether all those errors you found should lower the score and potentially reject an otherwise good file, since you just lower the appropriate rating.

when considering whether a file should be accepted or not, imo accept on the basis of entertainment ratings and then the lower technical ratings are the more you should push to have fixes made (e.g. conditional queue-y ness goes up)

anyway, blah blah file defenses.
Vote4Nixon on Field of Snow: the reason why I tried to avoid 123, 234 etc is because 23 and 32 transitions are difficult for three-fingered setups.
Grist: I'll look into transitions/32nd arrangement. if anyone who's a strong player would like to look over them with me that would be cool since I'm not exactly fgo dominating material
Buizel8888 on Sing for Absolution: Sorry, but the song -can't- be made any harder without making it bad. Think about it - the next step up from 4ths is going to involve 8ths, meaning the bass + snare pattern for 2/3rds of the file then an 8th version of the 16th synth in the middle. This offers almost zero variation, compared to the 4thy parts that are unique to each section. Ergo, beginner chart.
TC_Halogen on Sing for Absolution: I probably will make those parts same column, because same column in a row at sufficiently slow speeds is by far the easiest pattern.
Buizel8888 on The Battle with The Betrayed: The jumps you say I missed are actually only single notes because they're placed in gaps during the percussion. I -could- make them jumps but...hmm. Also, 16ths are all skipped for obvious reasons.
who_cares973 and Rebound on You Should Drink Cucumber Flavored Beer: I'll rework this file because it's clear that it only makes sense to me the way I did it. Maximizing information-noise ratio is only good if others can see how to arrive at the same conclusion lol. I'll either make it harder or easier I'm not sure yet. maybe both....

[MarioNintendo]

"But see the thing is with song choice not everyone likes the same songs. So how would one define a bad song to where it would pertain to everyone in the community? There are songs I despise on FFR, there were songs in my groups batch that I couldn't stand to listen to but I wont reject based on that because I'm willing to bet there's a bunch of ppl that will like that song. But a lot of the songs I hate people love on here so really it's not something that should hurt a rating of a file because that's just too vast of an opinion since we all have different tastes on music."

Well, in my humble opinion, there are two dimensions to the choice of the song: 1. Does this song fill my tastes (aka personal)? and 2. Is this song steppable/should it be stepped (aka the judges job to analyze the pertinence of the song)?

I think that this is definitely not a win-win situation. Song choice does seem to depend both on subjective and objective terms. It then seems somewhat logical that some points are attributed to it... no?

BTW, gotta admire Patashu's patience...!

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by Patashu

I've posted this like a zillion times but the framework would be something like
-How well stepped is it? / How much could the purely technical quality be improved upon by fixes?
-How much did I like it? / Is it interesting to play, irregardless of errors?

errors along the lines of 'you missed a jump at blah blah blah' would lower the former rating, errors along the lines of 'you took a pretty boring approach to the song' or 'this pattern is aids to hit' would lower the latter rating. one could have a perfect technical score and a bad entertainment score if it's e.g. a xandertrax file (sorry lol), or a bad technical score and a perfect entertainment score if its ideas are great but it has lots of little missing notes because bad speakers were used or w/e.

this will lead to less worries about whether all those errors you found should lower the score and potentially reject an otherwise good file, since you just lower the appropriate rating.

when considering whether a file should be accepted or not, imo accept on the basis of entertainment ratings and then the lower technical ratings are the more you should push to have fixes made (e.g. conditional queue-y ness goes up)

Sorry I haven't seen this before I don't know how I missed it because I like this idea since it incorporates the fun factor as well as the technical stuff in it.

Originally Posted by MarioNintendo

Well, in my humble opinion, there are two dimensions to the choice of the song: 1. Does this song fill my tastes (aka personal)? and 2. Is this song steppable/should it be stepped (aka the judges job to analyze the pertinence of the song)?

I think that this is definitely not a win-win situation. Song choice does seem to depend both on subjective and objective terms. It then seems somewhat logical that some points are attributed to it... no?

Sorry I should have been a little more clear. What I mean is it shouldn't be rejected because it's a song that just out of taste the judge doesn't enjoy. I can understand if a song is repetitive and doesn't make for a good chart or if the sound quality is bad. Things of that nature are different.

And just saw you're edit about patashu - yea lol he's awesome so is bmah XD

[Patashu]

I'd have a rule on song choice: Don't alter ratings if you dislike the song. If the song is bad for stepping it'll be reflected in a lower entertainment rating. If you don't like the song but it still makes a fun chart then other people will like it too.

Maybe a joke third rating for song quality :P

[MarioNintendo]

Originally Posted by Patashu

I'd have a rule on song choice: Don't alter ratings if you dislike the song. If the song is bad for stepping it'll be reflected in a lower entertainment rating. If you don't like the song but it still makes a fun chart then other people will like it too.

Maybe a joke third rating for song quality :P

This sounds like somebody will have to give birth to a sticky on "How to be a flawless judge" not to get them too confused with that new judgement process...! :P

I'm starting to wonder, assuming that FFR's community is not entirely made of unreasonable people, wouldn't a judging process inspired from Newgrounds' way of working optimally reflect the community's opinion on a song? It might never happen, but on paper, it works!

After reflexion, I'm taking that statement back.

[buizel8888]

The FFR Judges are all art haters

There. My 2 cents have been inserted

[who_cares973]

so i was expecting another dull day with the queue thread




oh my god i dont even know where to begin to quote