Question for creators

[Zyxel]

Hey all, Zyxel here. I have a question for anyone who engages with creative stuff like writing/art/music/etc. (pretty much asking anyone that has some sort of creative outlet.) A lot of this thread is just me complaining, so if you want to skip down to the question at the bottom, I've underlined it

I like to make things, ranging from video/photo/music but I keep having a problem- I have a really difficult time being proud of or enjoying anything I make. I hesitate to bring all of this up because its all negative and I'd rather try and navigate it all on my own; but I am at my wits end. Put it simply, I strongly dislike almost everything I make. It becomes much easier when I'm making something for the sake of someone other than myself, but in isolation it becomes so hard to validate any of my own work and be at peace.

Most recent example (and catalyst for this thread) is a song I'm working on where I feel like everything is going wrong. But that's the thing right there; every song I make ends up going horrendously wrong and I end up forcing myself to compromise and accept mediocrity. I tell myself "It's okay, we can use it as a learning experience and move forward from this. Let's try again, and do our best- mistakes are okay", but its almost as if I am a harbinger of failure and never make meaningful progress. I have many years worth of experience in each of my creative outlets and still learning, however, the process of refining my work over the span of the past several years without seeing or feeling any sort of payoff or fulfillment makes me feel like I'm just creatively-absent and incapable of constructing something I can look at and feel proud of. The difference between my older work vs now is like the old one is a turd and my newer stuff is like a polished turd. They're both turds! It's so frustrating! Everything I make is so dull and boring!!

Additionally; I think a big problem for me is the feedback loop (or lack thereof) for my music side of things. Even though I've been doing music for about 8 years*, and started trying to actually improve at it for the past 4, I haven't made many connections or friends with musically-inclined people who're also trying to improve their craft. Sure, I have made acquaintances along the way, but I don't talk to any of them (let alone about music). All of the progress I've made has been solo and self learning. [Last part I feel like I should mention: I have no intentions of trying to turn my creative work into a career, I simply create for the sake of creating.]

Sorry if this is a pretty negative thread, this has just been weighing down on me a tiny bit and so I was wondering: for those of you who are creatively inclined and engage in making stuff, how do you do it? How do you improve in a meaningful way? Or on the flip side, how do you grapple with these feelings of inadequacy and imperfection?

Any additional insight is also appreciated, whether or not it pertains to the original question(s). Thank you for reading!

[EppuJoloZ]

I've been making music and videos for around 6 years now.

There are times when I think that everything I do is trash, and I have no talent whatsoever, and there are times when I think I am actually doing something good. What has helped me the most is to just embrace the fact that you don't always make absolute bangers and that you always learn new things that do make your new stuff stand out more than your old stuff.

And that has kinda improved my ability to deal with those times when I think everything's trash. I look at my old stuff with the perspective of "wow I have improved quite a lot from here" and that kinda makes me appreciate my older works more. I used to really not like any of my old stuff, and cringe every time I see/hear one of those. But now, with that mindset, I can tolerate my old stuff way better, and sometimes motivate me to push my current projects forward. Also the feedback I get from friends is important, as it tells me I'm doing something right and it also motivates me. That also makes it easier to bounce back from the bottom

I can fully understand how you feel right now, but I can also say that you are very good at what you're doing, I like your music and your style! Also if you ever wanna discuss anything about music, just HMU on Discord, I love nerding and discussing about stuff that I am passionate about :P

[Elite Ninja]

I wish I could offer you a solution or advice but I'm in the same boat in terms of feeling like I completely lack the ability to be creative with anything I do. The only thing I do that is somewhat creative is stepping, but anything beyond that is non-existent and even my creativity in stepping songs is pretty lacking.

Only advice I can really give that relates a bit with me when stepping songs is that exposing yourself to other peoples creative work or discussing it with them sometimes could lead to some inspiration, or help give you ideas on how to approach your own creativity. There's also the issue of my lack of confidence where having friends or acquaintances that support and believe in you goes a long way. Without that I would probably no longer be stepping.

Another tip is to not give up, it may just take a long time to reach certain breakthroughs in creativity. I was stepping all the way back in 2011-2014 and everything I made during that time frame was very basic, boring, and nonsensical (at least that's how I see it and even now I still have that issue sometimes). After I took a break from rhythm games/stepping for over 6+ years and came back in 2022-2023, my stepping has improved a decent amount I think and I finally had this breakthrough to where I could chart a higher difficulty bracket of songs out of nowhere that I couldn't before and create more polished charts (I assume it might have just been from my mind maturing over the years or something I guess Idk?).

I wish you luck on your creative journey and hope that the things you make will make you happy and bring you joy as that's what really matters ^^

[WirryWoo]

Not a creator myself, but I think I can try and take a stab at trying to answer the question you have.

Question 1: For those of you who are creatively inclined and engage in making stuff, how do you do it?

I think there is a logic-based response and a feelings-based response to this question. Both are equally valid solutions and will completely depend on you.

Logically speaking, high consistency and strong dedication is very important to enforce a routine that will help you share an idea that comes to mind in a very structured and consistent way (when an idea appears). Ideas can only appear when you consistently put effort in identifying them and dedication is important to push you to sharing them to your audience regularly.

Emotionally speaking, passion is very important instead. Your love for creating new ideas and trusting that your feelings will drive you to new places where you can motivate yourself and continue with the unknown journey will be the primary driver instead. Passion is feelings-driven and can only be identified by taking a very hard look at yourself and understanding who you are. Only you can identify if you have that passion or not.

A healthy balance of both dimensions of your personal self is in my opinion, the best way to find that drive.

Question 2: How do you improve in a meaningful way? Or on the flip side, how do you grapple with these feelings of inadequacy and imperfection?

Firstly, you need to realize that everyone's journey in life is different no matter however you look at it. Everyone's journey is so different that comparisons like "his work is better than mine" or "he's much further in life than I am" is foolish because at that point, you're comparing apples to oranges. If you want an accurate comparison, the best "person" to compare yourself with is the version of you yesterday, because both you and that version went through the same experiences minus the ones you create today.

So putting logic aside, you improve by being proud of incremental improvements you make each day. You let others continue with their journey while you focus on your own and create as much as you can, under the goal to self-improve and not to create the best idea possible. Invest your energy into that notion of self improvement, because once you do, you'll see that your supporters are the ones who support not just your ideas, but your own journey. It's a much powerful way to build yourself motivation than giving yourself the pressure to deliver good ideas with the expectation of receiving support from them.

My answer probably reads nonsense to most people, but I really hope this helps you.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Allow me to be a bit blunt just for the sake of keeping it real. Chances are you're still relatively bad at whatever you're trying to do (in this case making music). The problem imo is not accepting that possibility, and expecting from yourself something that sounds great right off the bat. Just like many things in life, you start bad, you work hard and study on a regular basis, and you become good. The amount of work required varies from person to person depending on your innate skills or ability to learn quickly; some have to work more to get better. But at the end of the day, the best thing you can do is accept your skill, and use that positive/realistic mindset to motivate yourself for the work you have to put in. It's not always an easy thing to do, but what can help is to take time to reflect on what you learned every now and then. If you're trying to make music semi-blindly just throwing sounds and samples without much knowledge of how music or sound engineering works, you simply cannot expect to randomly come up with a masterpiece; it happens, sure, but it's very rare and not realistic.

Good luck with your creative journey, I hope you manage to shift your mindset to a more positive and productive one. Can't wait to hear the results of it ^^

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by Zyxel

[...]
I have a really difficult time being proud of or enjoying anything I make.

[...]
Put it simply, I strongly dislike almost everything I make.
[...]

I simply create for the sake of creating.

I think you should try creating to learn new things which should help you understand and create better long term.

Use your results as a reference for where you're at and build on new experiences to get closer of your goals or whatever interests you the most.

It's the highest motivator by far here. I'm not particularly proud of what I make, but if I had fun in the process, I guess I'm winning ?

People often quit because they focus too much on the result because they don't get what they want. I think that's kind of missing the point of what it's all about.


You'll improve as you build up more experiences by challenging yourself slightly off your comfort zone.

[Zyxel]

Thank you everyone for the advice and kind words! I think I was just having a bit of a moment of frustration. I went back to some of my older work and cross-referenced it with my newer stuff and there has been significant improvement, and I am also more relaxed now. I think it's just a matter of perfectionism

I also finished the song I was working on (for the most part)! Got some feedback from Eppu the goat and made some changes, now I'm really happy with how it's turned out. Its a much different genre than I'm used to writing, but I learned a lot from it and overall am pretty happy with it.

Coming back with a clear head, I wanna share my own insights for each of my questions!
- For those of you who are creatively inclined and engage in making stuff, how do you do it?

I predicated my entire sense of the success on this project around making it perfect, rather than making something new and exciting for myself. The way I worded it earlier was "accepting mediocrity" but that's pretty mean and disingenuous. It's more about making making strides in an uncharted territory (in my personal progression) and developing new skills that this style calls for. It isn't perfect, and it doesn't need to be. I made something I haven't before, and that is more than enough.

- How do you improve in a meaningful way?

'Meaningful' is a pretty arbitrary way to measure growth, but I think what I meant at the time was "when do I achieve perfection?" and in that case, never. Or, I can argue that I already have! It's perfect for me, because it is something I put a lot of effort and love into and it is mine- and that makes it perfect for me.

- How do you grapple with these feelings of inadequacy and imperfection?

This comes from fear of failure and judgement. The best way to deal with these feelings is to just keep making cool stuff, even if others might see it as bad. The only way to lose to these uncomfortable feelings is to let them win and to stop creating.

The process of making something new is exciting and beautiful, but it is easy to lose sight of passion and creativity in pursuing objective perfection. I slightly regret letting these feelings of imperfection spoil the experience of making this song, but I'm glad I now have a better understanding of why I feel the way I do and how to navigate them moving forward. (I'll post the song here too once its 100% complete too, for anyone who is curious)

[samurai7694]

Chiming in a bit late but hopefully what I offer may be of assistance:

I would suggest analyzing songs/pieces that you enjoy the music and jot down what exactly you like about it. Is it the type of scale used? Is it a certain chord, or chord progression? Is it instrumentation? Is it the mood? Lyrics? Rhythm? No such thing as being over-analytical here, and it may serve you well to understand what influences you and what ultimately may become your own voice as a composer or songwriter.

If you're into songwriting/music production, search for stems online so that you can open up a DAW (Logic, Pro Tools, etc.) and actually isolate each instrument track and get a better understanding of how it all works together to make one song.

Pace of learning is entirely unique. I had zero experience with film music last year, all the while being enrolled in a program where a few students already scored shorts or feature length films. Yet they humbly approached me because they knew I was a string player and they wanted me to proofread their scores. This opened up opportunities for me to make friends and a chance for me to ask them questions about film scoring stuff. You don't necessarily have to be an extrovert, but a sense of confidence and willingness to network is a must in this industry. And the truth is, everyone is anxious or insecure about something. We're all just winging it in a way, and the ones that succeed are the ones who actually try, and try and try again. Know what you excel at and capitalize on that, all the while refining skills that you want to improve on.

Biggest advice: don't wait on motivation. Especially not if you have clients with strict deadlines. Sometimes you may have to create art when you have a lot going on in life, and you just have to push on through no matter what. The hardest step for me has always been just opening my DAW and making those very first decisions on tempo, rhythm, melodies, etc. that I know I can't back out on once I start. But after that first step, then the anxiety sort of drops and I commit to what I've started.

In short, you get better with more experience, more knowledge, and most certainly by just listening to lots of music every day to "borrow" things from other artists if it serves your own projects (i.e. Powell or Williams scores if you want that old-school epic orchestral stuff). In a way, we're always a "student", always learning so long as we choose to. Feedback can be kind of scary but so long as people are constructive and respectful, you can certainly take your music to the next level by taking their critiques into consideration.

Keep up the grind! We're rooting for you!

[xXOpkillerXx]

Originally Posted by Zyxel

I slightly regret letting these feelings of imperfection spoil the experience of making this song, but I'm glad I now have a better understanding of why I feel the way I do and how to navigate them moving forward.

You know what they say, sometimes the journey matters more than the results. Make the journey an enjoyable one and the results can only be a bonus. Glgl

[MarcusHawkins]

Arranger and director here!

EVERY creator experiences what you just described, almost like an "imposter syndrome". This is normal! As you got more and more into your art, you realize more and more things and become more and more self-critical because it's not "perfect".

My advice: Step away for a brief while, even if it is just a day or two, so you can come back with a new state of mind! And a lot of people say this too, but when you do come back to creating, remember what got you there in the first place! This may mean going to another room, turning on a certain light (literally), or listening to your influences to help stimulate those good effects!

And be open-minded to new possibilities! Sometimes, what may not work one day will have a new idea and solution another day! Never stop learning and exploring!

[MarioNintendo]

I really relate to what you wrote in this thread Zyxel. I’m happy that in your second post you seem to have found a more positive spin on the situation. I still want to post something here because your writing made me feel something.

If art was a car, our feelings are its fuel and our curiosity is its steering wheel. To me, the best art drenches in emotion and sentimentality, and requires us to be comfortable to stamp a part of our soul on our canvas of choice, sort of getting spiritually naked. I personally found this to be the best way to get a good look at what’s really hiding in my brain and understand myself better. For me, art is therapy. I believe that even if your art were “trash”, it is worth studying because it’s a true look at what’s hiding deep inside you.

But then there’s the curiosity part. That’s something I understood later (i.e. last year). At some point, you can’t keep making art as a coping mechanism to boost your ego. You can’t just create art as an escape. It’s going to show. That’s when you’ll start spinning in circles and start asking yourself hard questions. “Why do I even bother?” “Why isn’t this fun anymore?” “Am I missing something?” Such questions are your emotions begging you to try something different, to push yourself out of your comfort zone, to try something you were always afraid of attempting (why?)

Being curious is scary until you realize it’s the only way to live. Suffering, learning from mistakes, iterating, being patient, listening to criticism, breaking a pattern… all these things are also part of a complete life, and reconnecting with these emotions, accepting them, in my opinion, is part of what will allow you to make art you’ll be proud of.

In summary, if you’re struggling in your art form of choice right now, use this as an opportunity to get curious about yourself. You might find some knot in your soul that your art allowed you to become aware of. That can be the beginning of a new life.

[MarioNintendo]

What I’m trying to say is that art is work and that’s ok.

[Zyxel]

Originally Posted by MarioNintendo

What I’m trying to say is that art is work and that’s ok.

Thank you so much for the additional insight! I really love your quote too of "use this as an opportunity to get curious about yourself. You might find some knot in your soul that your art allowed you to become aware of." I have a lot more uncomfortable feels to figure out on a much more meta-level, but in terms of just this one song in particular, a reason I didn't like it initially was because of how unfamiliar I was with of the process.

A lot of my songs sound the same because I found a "general structure" or "formula" that worked for making something start to finish in the past, and I wanted to break that mold. However, despite the actual steps being much different to me (at least in terms of sound design, composition, and mix/mastering), my judgement was still the same as it had been. I have had a pretty bad habit of 'loud=better, mix and master everything to push 0db without noticeable distortion' and an even worse habit of 'compare this one instance of work to someone who is an expert. if it isnt 1-1 in quality, it's awful and you should re-consider pursuing this project.' But this time around, I tried to keep it pretty minimal with a larger focus on the groove and a more rich low-end; which does give me more headroom for detail oriented shenanigans, but doesn't offer the same head-buzzing punch I once chased. Not that this is a bad thing at all (in fact I'd argue this is better overall) but I'm so used to designing my stuff in one particular way that breaking away was a little bit turbulent.

Though overall, it didn't turn out too bad! There are some mistakes I'd fix moving forward, but that's the joy of learning. (Here is the finished song for anyone who is curious: https://soundcloud.com/helious-music/just-a-game)

[evanescence_death4ever]

Originally Posted by Zyxel

(Here is the finished song for anyone who is curious: https://soundcloud.com/helious-music/just-a-game)

Hey, Zyxel -- was reading the thread when you originally posted, tried to formulate a concise reply, but alas, brain went full on "no one wants to read this book" mode and I decided not to post.

That said, I listened to your song on repeat 4x times at the beginning of this week and it keeps popping into my head. You have created a certified BANGER. I can hear the stream, sounds like such a fun song to play ITG to =] I could see some sweet stamina 13-15s [I could see tech charts too, I just hate tech~]. Would love to see it stepped for ITG, has a great rhythm/super dance worthy! Just wanted to say I love it, hope you can continue finding enjoyment and keep on making music =]

Listening again now ^^