Should we consider double setup "legit"

[Ohaider]

I always considered the relationship of double setup to spread the same as spread to one handed or index

[hi19hi19]

1 key -> 1 arrow
The position of your fingers to hit those keys is up to you.
It's not a stated rule but it's very clearly implied in the game.
For example, the options menu doesn't let you bind multiple keys for each arrow.
It very clearly gives players the ability to bind one key per arrow.

I have no problem with overlay for this reason. It's very different. Much more akin to the difference between index/spread/one-hand.

[Charu]

One arrow... to rule them ALL!!!

[icontrolyourworld]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

1 key -> 1 arrow
The position of your fingers to hit those keys is up to you.
It's not a stated rule but it's very clearly implied in the game.
For example, the options menu doesn't let you bind multiple keys for each arrow.
It very clearly gives players the ability to bind one key per arrow.

I have no problem with overlay for this reason. It's very different. Much more akin to the difference between index/spread/one-hand.

if this is an issue with options in the game RIGHT NOW
we would have never gained access to speed modifiers in the past. we'd still be screen cutting. we would not be able to map our keys to things other than the arrow keys. we would not have split scrolling and whatnot.

I'm not asking to add multiple keymappings per arrow to the engine (although that would be AWESOME), i'd like people to be more open to players that find that DS is more their style of play.

It's just a video game, and even if we don't consider it the correct way to play, who are we to say no don't play that way that's cheating.?

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by icontrolyourworld

if this is an issue with options in the game RIGHT NOW
we would have never gained access to speed modifiers in the past. we'd still be screen cutting. we would not be able to map our keys to things other than the arrow keys. we would not have split scrolling and whatnot.

This game is a DDR clone. In case you didn't notice that, the name of the site implies we are.
All the DDR consoles I've ever played have only had one panel on the dancepad per arrow.
Notably, DDR games have had things like speed modifiers, which is why they were eventually added into FFR as well.

Now, obviously FFR is not the same game as DDR. But there's a respect for tradition here.
One input per arrow has been a constant since the very first game was released, so I don't see any reason to suddenly redefine the entire genre right now as a result of one forum thread.

Originally Posted by icontrolyourworld

It's just a video game, and even if we don't consider it the correct way to play, who are we to say no don't play that way that's cheating.?

This strikes me as a pretty weak argument.
"But using macros and bots is my style of playing" follows the same lines, no?
If we don't define cheating by what is acceptable in the community, how else do we define it?

One input per arrow has been the standard of acceptable in the community now for over 10 years. It's foundational.
There's certainly a lot of fun to be had playing double setup, but you have to respect why everyone is considering it essentially a different game- because it is.

[ShurykaN]

In ffr double setup is actually against site rules.

Edit: I think it would be legitimate if the stepfiles were intended to be played with double setup. Most files are intended to be played spread or index and using a superior input method would defeat the purpose.

Double Edit: Also Corn's sig breaks site rules.

[icontrolyourworld]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

This game is a DDR clone. In case you didn't notice that, the name of the site implies we are.
All the DDR consoles I've ever played have only had one panel on the dancepad per arrow.
Notably, DDR games have had things like speed modifiers, which is why they were eventually added into FFR as well.

Now, obviously FFR is not the same game as DDR. But there's a respect for tradition here.
One input per arrow has been a constant since the very first game was released, so I don't see any reason to suddenly redefine the entire genre right now as a result of one forum thread.


This strikes me as a pretty weak argument.
"But using macros and bots is my style of playing" follows the same lines, no?
If we don't define cheating by what is acceptable in the community, how else do we define it?

If it's a respect for tradition why are we playing on keyboards and not metal pads? BECAUSE it's a clone and there are differences here and it is a different game. We don't have 4 legs so why do we use 4 fingers?

This isn't a genre defining thing. It's letting people do what's fun for them.

If you want to write a program/bot that AAA's 9999nps songs good on ya, we can draw the line at bots. Keep it out of ffr, there's no competition there.
But why take away from someone that is actually trying to have fun and improve their real skill? Why tell someone they can't have fun simply because we arbitrarily decide that double setup is cheating. Why limit the capabilities of everyone simply based on tradition when in the past we've broken tradition to have fun?

Originally Posted by ShurykaN

In ffr double setup is actually against site rules.

I know it is. Mind giving me a reason why it should stay that way? MORE IMPORTANTLY why we should adopt that mentality and bash all DS scores?

[gold stinger]

Originally Posted by ShurykaN

In ffr double setup is actually against site rules.

Yes, that's why this thread was made, to appeal the possibilities of having said rule removed.

[Charu]

I'm going to use 4 keys for one arrow so I can do those jacky files.

[Charu]

I'm going to play a trill file as if I'm rolling.

[icontrolyourworld]

Originally Posted by Charu

I'm going to use 4 keys for one arrow so I can do those jacky files.

Originally Posted by Charu

I'm going to play a trill file as if I'm rolling.

This is easier said than done, I would like to see you obtain competitive scores so easily, instead of just mocking a playstyle. AND i'm not saying find 1 song that meets this criteria I mean actually compete with some of your own good scores.

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by icontrolyourworld

If you want to write a program/bot that AAA's 9999nps songs good on ya, we can draw the line at bots. Keep it out of ffr, there's no competition there.
But why take away from someone that is actually trying to have fun and improve their real skill?

See, you made my argument for me. There's no competition between single and double setup. They're completely different- just like botting vs. not botting.
It's like saying "but I'm having fun and improving my real skill at writing macros" - which is fine, but you're playing a completely different game there.

Why? Because stepfiles have been historically made with single setup in mind. If you are doing something other than what the community intends, there's no competition.

If you want to play double setup, go ahead. In fact, I really encourage you to make DS-specific files.

But the community is going to treat it as a different game, because it's so fundamentally different from what everyone else has defined as acceptable, and there's no competition if you're suddenly allowed to break a foundational rule like one input -> one arrow on files where that was the intent for over 10 years.
And, being so different, the rules for official FFR scoring aren't going to change. FFR has remained single setup and it's too late to change that- but not too late, perhaps, for you to make your own game that is DS-centric.

[MinaciousGrace]

if people want to play 8button 4key and get better at it then that's up to them but if we are defining "legit" as "an accepted playstyle whose scores are directly comparable with other scores obtained through other playstyle methods" then this will never happen

there is simply too large a differential between spread/4key potential, far beyond the differential between index/spread, even if the analogous progression is justified

not to mention that "legit" is community driven more than anything else, even if site admins came out and said "double setup is now officially a supported playstyle" players themselves would disregard any notable scores obtained in such way and ds players would be de facto segregated into comparing their scores with each other

anyway for all we know there are hundreds of double setup players already playing on ffr they just all suck dick

[gold stinger]

charu ya fucking postwhore

[MinaciousGrace]

also, relevant

[Charu]

I'm not getting the context, HELP ME MINA HELP ME!!!

[gold stinger]

This thread can now no longer be taken seriously.

[icontrolyourworld]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

See, you made my argument for me. There's no competition between single and double setup. They're completely different- just like botting vs. not botting.
It's like saying "but I'm having fun and improving my real skill at writing macros" - which is fine, but you're playing a completely different game there.

Why? Because stepfiles have been historically made with single setup in mind. If you are doing something other than what the community intends, there's no competition.

If you want to play double setup, go ahead. In fact, I really encourage you to make DS-specific files.

But the community is going to treat it as a different game, because it's so fundamentally different from what everyone else has defined as acceptable, and there's no competition if you're suddenly allowed to break a foundational rule like one input -> one arrow on files where that was the intent for over 10 years.

I didn't make your argument for you. There's YOU playing, and A BOT playing. That's completely different from YOU playing with 4 fingers and YOU playing with 8 fingers, or 2, or 3 or 1. We've changed this mentality in the past. It's not cheating to to play on a keyboard compared to pad because it's still YOU playing.

I wouldn't know where to begin with making DS-specific files. But maybe people can have fun playing what is already out there in terms of building skill. Because once again, and I'll say this again and again, because there are people that use DS as their main playstyle whether they are good or bad players.
Why take away from someone that is actually trying to have fun and improve their real skill? Why tell someone they can't have fun simply because we arbitrarily decide that double setup is cheating. Why limit the capabilities of everyone simply based on tradition when in the past we've broken tradition to have fun?

I have yet been thoroughly convinced as to why we should continue treating DS as cheating.

Here's a point no one is trying to argue against:
If you've ever tried DS I'm sure you've only used it for Jackhammers (@everyone), it would be VERY hard to learn and master legitly, although admittedly it opens the possibility of raising the bar so to speak. But if it's SO HARD to learn and master, why consider it cheating at all?
We can treat it as it's own playstyle JUST LIKE we treat spread, index, and one hand.

[gold stinger]

Originally Posted by ShurykaN

Double Edit: Also Corn's sig breaks site rules.

if you try to reverse image search icyworld's avatar it's actually more NSFW than the original cropped version of that morrigan render I used.

[Epicman9001]

Who cares? It's still skill double penetrating keyboards. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

(you know what i mean)