TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

[Red Blaster]

Originally Posted by AragakiAyase

confession showed remorse I think

This combined with Haku not actually using the information he got in the game thread, could it have skewed his own views of people? Sure without a doubt, but he never brought it to light in the game. Those of us who were alive had no idea this was even happening until postgame, so it's not as if it had any significant impact on the game in-hindsight.

Again my two cents here, but looking at the big picture we have:

1. An inexperienced player
2. Someone who confessed to what they did
3. Someone who's not had any sort of prior infractions
4. And never used the actual OGI they got in a way to skew the game in terms of revealing it to other players.

Clearly yes he did do something wrong, and should receive some sort of punishment for it, but I feel like 3 months is excessive. Keep in mind that I was only banned for less than 6 months or so before I came back from my "permaban"

[thesunfan]

Originally Posted by XelNya

Gonna side bar for a moment

I kinda gotta side with Haku on this concept regardless.

Do I think he cheated knowingly? Oh yeah. Should he get punished.

Most certainly.

However, he is right and that a few things need to be changed.

And that's the TWG rule book mostly.

I mean, TWC shit is still in there for fuck's sake. It has out of date rules and such. It can be kinda confusing when some rules apply, and some don't.

See the jTWG rule for case and point. I got into a TWG game first time, with pretty much no idea what I was doing beyond bare bone mechanics, with the option to PM I think it was Xiz if I had a question about the game / the mechanics.

I've rewritten the rules ~ a week ago and this is getting changed like really soon.

[YoshL]

haku attempted to talk to people outside of thread during xiz's game, and was told that that was not allowed by said parties. It's actually not the first time he's done it

plus, the reasoning behind cheating? to "bring the issues to light" mhm that's superb justification.

and for a third time, it seriously seems like both parties are still trying to justify what they did. I don't think the bans should be shortened until otherwise.

also, it did have an impact on the game - for example, knowing that i was a mafia, with the random "i'm going to kill yoshl in the night", caused wolves to roleblock him, and from there, who knows where the game would have differed.

[thesunfan]

Originally Posted by Red Blaster

Also why are you talking about giving Haku a 3 month ban on his first infraction when I only ever got a 2 game ban? I think YoshL is taking this a little too personally. It's not even like he used the info he got to influence the game considering Xiz, who had no OGI, killed him but whatever..just my two cents.

I feel the same way as Yoshl, I think that cheating should be close to no-tolerance. I don't think he's taking it too personally

[thesunfan]

Originally Posted by YoshL

sunfan asked for logs from rzr earlier regarding attempts to stop haku from talking to him. to my knowledge he has yet to provide.

This is accurate and I expect literally to never get them from him. Not because I believe they don't exist (they may or may not) but because rzr has a self-rule about not being a snitch and I think that's stopping him from giving them to me, if they exist.

Basically, I think he's not doing himself any favors.

[Red Blaster]

Originally Posted by YoshL

haku attempted to talk to people outside of thread during xiz's game, and was told that that was not allowed by said parties. It's actually not the first time he's done it

I did not know this.

[T-Force]

Originally Posted by YoshL

who knows where the game would have differed.

Unnecessary. What did happen happened. There's no point in bringing up possibilities and changes in outcome unless you've got some swanky little time machine.

What is relevant is that this happened (and twice now from what I see) and the main question I have for Haku is: why?
Were you unaware that you're not allowed to talk about the game outside of the thread unless the game specifically allows it?
Were you just trying to push the boundaries and see where the line was drawn?

If you want us to help you, and other players in the future, helping us is the key.
That said, if it's the second, that's kind of a dick move..

Either way, as I see it, 3 months = approx. 5 games and that's a good limit, in my opinion.



As for rzr, I really don't know.. In the sense of fairness, I would agree that similar punishments should be in order, but without knowing who started this conversation, mixed in with the fact that - as a veteran player of many years - this is a well known rule that he should be known, and amplified by his reaction (dude.. seriously, that's not cool), there are a lot of things that need to be confirmed/looked at before his verdict is handed down.






(also, what are the bets that they just didn't realize OotC was off)

[Xiz]

I wasn't aware of it until a few days ago either, RB.
Also RB since your penalty you have improved significantly as a player, and I'm glad you have stuck around.


After thinking about it with a clear head, even with Rzr's recent remarks, I disagree with a perma-ban and think an end-of-the-year ban is appropriate regardless of immaturity.
For haku, end of the year still is appropriate due to this is now the 2nd offence within three games that we are aware of where breaking the rules did occur, when I believe he only thought he was bending them.

I guess the information that was misinterpreted was that each individual needs to hold themselves to an 'unwritten' code of respect and honor (that sounds cheesy) to keep the spirit and flavor of the game enjoyable for every other participant. In other words, if it sounds like it's very slightly against or bending the rules, treat it as against said rules.

[Xiz]

(Also, super MVP for the past game goes to me for beating the game even with all the cheating huehuehue)

[Red Blaster]

Originally Posted by Xiz

Also RB since your penalty you have improved significantly as a player, and I'm glad you have stuck around.

Thanks, although myself I don't really feel like I'm doing any better in terms of progressing games.

[Tokzic]

Originally Posted by rzr

And Haku you're a stupid cunt snitch bru you fucked your own game up thanks for dragging me down with you ******

come on, dude

come on, dude

[choof]

Originally Posted by Xiz

even with Rzr's recent remarks, I disagree with a perma-ban and think an end-of-the-year ban is appropriate regardless of immaturity.

absolutely fucking not
the comment he made shows that he has zero remorse for what he did and if that's the case, he will probably have no issue doing it again later down the road
if we come to the consensus that he doesn't get a perma, then the instant he breaks another rule after getting unbanned, he should be fuckin toast

[YoshL]

Originally Posted by T-Force

Unnecessary. What did happen happened. There's no point in bringing up possibilities and changes in outcome unless you've got some swanky little time machine.

this is why i didn't go into details. My point was that OOTC and OGI still 100% change the game even if a player says they "didn't let it affect their game".

haku's motivation behind actually cheating is very foggy, because he keeps trying to save face to others, and say other things. from what i've gathered, his strongest line of reasoning was that "he had to do something drastic to bring the issue of cheating to our attention". Which again, is in my opinion 100% bullshit, he could have stopped as soon as rzr contacted him, and reported it to sunfan. ez, people get modkilled or replaced out, no harm done. accidents happen. What's not an accident is proliferating the contact and continuing it throughout the game.

and once again, the point of the ban is to let the banned person know and understand that what they did was wrong, regardless of motivation.

both parties are still trying to justify what they did.

[Makilaz]

Originally Posted by rzr

I got nothing to defend just wanna make it clear Haku came to me and this is 2 games in a row where the idiot would spill his role to me I should have said something when I did but I didn't let that tainted info influence anyone else the way that moron did

Anyway guys I got bigger shit to do with my life than play this game a 9 month ban seems pretty over reactive to me but hey you guys are the ones that gotta fill rosters

Bye ffrz till ano 4th we 6 yrs

And Haku you're a stupid cunt snitch bru you fucked your own game up thanks for dragging me down with you ******

i thought you were better than this come on bro

[choof]

Originally Posted by Makilaz

A game ban for a number of games, yes, but I don't think perma-ban worthy offenses happened here.

the thing with game bans on ffr is that they will always be less weighty than a length ban

if you ban someone for one game, depending on how many players are in that game, it can last anywhere from a week to a month. a week of me not playing won't do much to dissuade me from breaking rules. but if you make it a month long ban, that could be anywhere from 1 to potentially 4 games

[choof]

Originally Posted by Red Blaster

Thanks, although myself I don't really feel like I'm doing any better in terms of progressing games.

don't think this matters too much, what matters is that you're now a player that people enjoy playing with.

[thesunfan]

Originally Posted by Red Blaster

Thanks, although myself I don't really feel like I'm doing any better in terms of progressing games.

I agree with what choof said and I also disagree with this self-assessment, I think you did a lot when you got confirmed as IC, for example

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by T-Force

What is relevant is that this happened (and twice now from what I see) and the main question I have for Haku is: why?

I've been in this mindset that I wanted to try to do every I can to learn how to play this game better, I crossed boundaries and reacted poorly to what I should do.

Originally Posted by T-Force

Were you unaware that you're not allowed to talk about the game outside of the thread unless the game specifically allows it?

I was aware of it. The issue is that I expected him and the others who slipped to not talk about the game. (it doesn't justify my actions)

Originally Posted by T-Force

Were you just trying to push the boundaries and see where the line was drawn?

Yeah, but that snowballed horribly. I got curious and involved myself with it because I felt like it would help me understand the game better. I thought it wouldn't affect the game too badly, I did completely miss the point. I ended up wondering what would happen next rather than reporting it directly and now that I ended up reporting it, it's making me look bad either way.

Originally Posted by T-Force

If you want us to help you, and other players in the future, helping us is the key.
That said, if it's the second, that's kind of a dick move..

It's actually entirely the second.
There's no way I'm going to sit down and justify cheating itself. It is wrong.

I'm only here to try to improve this game environment and if it has to make me quit the place, that's fine too.

[thesunfan]

Originally Posted by choof

the thing with game bans on ffr is that they will always be less weighty than a length ban

if you ban someone for one game, depending on how many players are in that game, it can last anywhere from a week to a month. a week of me not playing won't do much to dissuade me from breaking rules. but if you make it a month long ban, that could be anywhere from 1 to potentially 4 games

you keep talking about games potentially being a week long. I get that the Ace Attorney game just happened and its fresh in people's minds but like a week-long forum game is something that so rarely happens on FFR, even with small, quick setups like Matrix6.

As for making bans a length of time rather than a length of games, it has one rather easy-to-fix problem in when the ban officially "ends". Can you be a replacement if your ban ends after a TWG game has started or not? I'd lean towards yes but its something that would need to be figured out beforehand.

Yoshl suggested period-of-time bans when we were talking recently, I have to admit that I don't quite see the point... but I also agree that bans for like, 1 game are pretty near meaningless.

[choof]

Originally Posted by thesunfan

you keep talking about games potentially being a week long. I get that the Ace Attorney game just happened and its fresh in people's minds but like a week-long forum game is something that so rarely happens on FFR, even with small, quick setups like Matrix6.

good point, I don't remember the game I played before that either
but I still think that length bans are a good way to go; if jtwgs start to be a thing again, then a length ban would also cover that jtwg.

As for making bans a length of time rather than a length of games, it has one rather easy-to-fix problem in when the ban officially "ends". Can you be a replacement if your ban ends after a TWG game has started or not? I'd lean towards yes but its something that would need to be figured out beforehand.

I would say no but I'm also an asshole