TWG CLVI: The Grand TWGabout - GAME THREAD

[YoshL]

you had 2 blue claims when there was only 1 blue remaining at EoD. There's no way you're going into that mentality with "oh shit they're probably town and town but i think one of them should die anyways"

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by YoshL

you had 2 blue claims when there was only 1 blue remaining at EoD. There's no way you're going into that mentality with "oh shit they're probably town and town but i think one of them should die anyways"

I'm not going to fight you so continue onwards.

You're wrong.

[_Zenith_]

I will say this though:

You've looked bad for a healthy amount of the game, self-admitted to looking bad too, and also have admitted to not taking the time to read the game or players in-depth

Before you try to gun me down because of my Tokzic reasoning, the rest of the players deserve to see the effort you've either tried to achieve or actually achieved, so please show what you have done so far. Sunfan is waiting for all of us to come forth with reads before doing his confirmed stuff.

[YoshL]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

I will say this though:

You've looked bad for a healthy amount of the game, self-admitted to looking bad too, and also have admitted to not taking the time to read the game or players in-depth

Before you try to gun me down because of my Tokzic reasoning, the rest of the players deserve to see the effort you've either tried to achieve or actually achieved, so please show what you have done so far. Sunfan is waiting for all of us to come forth with reads before doing his confirmed stuff.

is this seriously all you've got? "You looked bad" is basically the extent on your "read" of me. I've given my opinion on people and have been analyzing people's actions, reactions, interactions, etc. as i can. i'm seeing you coming out with "hey look at my accurate reads" with very little work behind them, and now it looks like you're just kinda hiding behind sunfan's 100% confirmed town spot.

it also looks like you didn't bother to go and actuallly check whether or not i expressed opinions on other players currently in the game, which even further destroys the little bit of pressure that it looks like you're trying to generate lol

more importantly because you've been a pretty damn non-factor in this game, no-one's really touched on you and you've been left alone. it's unlike the town zenith that tries to pull big plays to generate controversy, but more like the wolf zenith who pops up with reads that are pretty much too good to be true

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by YoshL

is this seriously all you've got? "You looked bad" is basically the extent on your "read" of me. I've given my opinion on people and have been analyzing people's actions, reactions, interactions, etc. as i can. i'm seeing you coming out with "hey look at my accurate reads" with very little work behind them, and now it looks like you're just kinda hiding behind sunfan's 100% confirmed town spot.

it also looks like you didn't bother to go and actuallly check whether or not i expressed opinions on other players currently in the game, which even further destroys the little bit of pressure that it looks like you're trying to generate lol

more importantly because you've been a pretty damn non-factor in this game, no-one's really touched on you and you've been left alone. it's unlike the town zenith that tries to pull big plays to generate controversy, but more like the wolf zenith who pops up with reads that are pretty much too good to be true

I'm not trying to go after you in the sense I think you're a wolf, no no

I still have a town read on you.

Bolded is another subjection to a meta read that I already commented that should be thrown away.

I haven't seen the "normal" amount of work you put into a game yet which is why I'm pressuring to see more from you, not pressuring to find out if you're a wolf or not because I'm pretty sure you're town here. If you think I'm attempting to sheep Sunfan because confirmed you are wrong, if you read back, you can see Sunfan and I have shared similar thoughts even though he's had problems with me this game (See: D1). Knowing what he thinks will allow me to look at my own reads from another view which is where I feel like I should be currently since I'm puzzled about who the last wolf is.

Don't think I'm solely targeting you either about activity / wanting more content, everyone needs to start being more active and contributing and you're just getting the start of it because you're here and active, sorry. I'm pissed off at DBP, I don't like that T-Force doesn't even want to skim the past phases and wants to play this one "as if it's d0" because whatever is said in this phase comes off as face value and not "it's logically attributed because of past events". MML is very inconsistent with his activity but still reminds me of the last game I played with MML (Turbo 3) where I gunned him down and he flipped town for making eerily similar posts as the ones he is making this game. inDheart is for lack of a better term bad right now, this is the second time he took flair in something he is sheeping (See: D1 Sunfan, Now you). I think his section about me about wanting to gain town points is absurd, it isn't about the town points, it's about actively attempting to find the last wolf right now.

[T-Force]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

I don't like that T-Force doesn't even want to skim the past phases and wants to play this one "as if it's d0" because whatever is said in this phase comes off as face value and not "it's logically attributed because of past events".

I'll go back to your's and YoshL's little spat here later on because I think it could be telling, but I wanted to address this first:

Is it such a bad thing that I want to do this? To take everything at face value from what's posted now rather than gain the context and biases of the previous phase? Everyone has their reads, their biases towards the other players; I do not. If the wolf is hiding amongst everyone's townreads from a previous phase, who's to say I can't figure them out with having a clear view from the one day? If you want to hate on me for it, go right ahead, but I think that this style could be beneficial.

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

Is it bad I might have switched inDheart from a wolf to a really bad town?

I don't think it's that bad, I think his reads are terrible this game and this is the second time he's used influence to support a read (First from Sunfan, now from YoshL) so whereas I originally thought he could've been a decent wolf candidate, I just think he's now backpacking because he isn't developing good reads and he may know this even before he reads this post.

sure i'll cop to playing a bad game, especially d0, but honestly you can't get more noncommittal than your own reads list where you had two leans but zero solid wolf candidates. looking at what you just posted today, it's practically the same. i'd love to know what changed your mind on MML, who along with me was a wolf candidate for you yesterday.

it's bizarre to me that so little "sticks out" to you, but then you're obsessed with your waffling being "right" at times.

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't what zenith did to island a classic wolf play? build suspicion by finding a reason to call him out and park your vote, get him to do the night kill, then if he dies, good thing you called it ahead of time. in general bad for wolves, but the seeming confirmation would have made it easier to hide himself.

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by T-Force

Is it such a bad thing that I want to do this? To take everything at face value from what's posted now rather than gain the context and biases of the previous phase? Everyone has their reads, their biases towards the other players; I do not. If the wolf is hiding amongst everyone's townreads from a previous phase, who's to say I can't figure them out with having a clear view from the one day? If you want to hate on me for it, go right ahead, but I think that this style could be beneficial.

i think what might be difficult is the rest of us might have a hard time not bringing earlier context into the discussion, so inevitably you'd have to engage with it

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by T-Force

I'll go back to your's and YoshL's little spat here later on because I think it could be telling, but I wanted to address this first:

Is it such a bad thing that I want to do this? To take everything at face value from what's posted now rather than gain the context and biases of the previous phase? Everyone has their reads, their biases towards the other players; I do not. If the wolf is hiding amongst everyone's townreads from a previous phase, who's to say I can't figure them out with having a clear view from the one day? If you want to hate on me for it, go right ahead, but I think that this style could be beneficial.

It's not mechanically bad, no, I just don't particularly like it because there might be some key points you could easily miss in the last phases if you do not read it and it may affect some things you read/say without actually knowing. A skim does fine, not asking for you to take literally a full day reading so many posts (with d0 being filled with longer posts). It's just now how I would go about it.

[inDheart]

10. MixMasterLar town

- yeah i'm still reading him as town but i'm dropping the "didn't read the setup" reason because it's stupid at this point
- if there's anyone i'm going to call "bad town" it's MML
- post count theory has some merits, but it's weird to me to hammer so early on it d0, even voting wab in a mistake
- ...but honestly i think pinging the inactives would confuse your own application of that theory, and if i recall, your follow-up has used the same post count picture which is dated now, unless your point is that halfway through d0 tells all
- he said this was his 4th game and claimed VT pretty organically, which i can see as a legit claim because of how voluntary it was
- ...but really failed to respond to yoshl in a reasonable, substantive way (hence my "MML sux yoshl rulz" post)
- however, i do see an eagerness out of him to solve the game, even if it doesn't seem to be doing much for his reads
- his top 5 town from yesterday is more like a list of people who offended him the least to put in there
- yet for his recent play, i like his tokzic push and his recap of the aftermath above about what we can learn from the people forcing insta there. still waiting to see how he feels today, but i like his hustle.

13. T-Force null

- just entered the game so nbtj yet
- so the following is a reread of ben:
- this one is probably my favorite penguin post, as it picked on red blaster for putting nothing on top of barely anything. the post that sunfan supposedly thought he was townie for just reads like utter fluff to me though, like it's something made of nothing
- he talked to MML about post count theory but most of his other posts are meme drivel and "sorry i'm not here"
- still wish i could have asked him about his charu vote, because it seems like his stated reason was borrowed straight from AA's iso, and he didn't have any previous engagement with the charu lynch squad's ideas. he certainly wasn't the first person to think "he can die" was weird

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

Bolded is another subjection to a meta read that I already commented that should be thrown away.

I haven't seen the "normal" amount of work you put into a game yet which is why I'm pressuring to see more from you, not pressuring to find out if you're a wolf or not because I'm pretty sure you're town here.

at least you're consistent about being eager to throw away meta

[thesunfan]

@indheart, when you're done making reads on everyone, if you could quote them all in one post, that would be most helpful

[DaBackpack]

otakon is over and I'm flying home tonight

[MixMasterLar]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

Even without reading him as a wolf, he deserved to die and you know this. It's bad enough we have one completely inactive person that hinders town and he was also hindering town with his bullshit. I believe by what Sunfan said we still have what, three mislynches? You care to propose to use one of them on me?

This is a very bad reason. If you think that there are great chances that he might flip a wolf, that's gravy. But if you think his play style as town was hurting us? If you thought he was VT you could have easily ignored him for the whopping hour or two it took for him to forget the game was running and leave again.

And YoshL did bring up a good point, Town Zenith goes for big plays. To add on to what he said, I remember reading Turbo II and you did that hilarious plan of claiming Cop that backfired, and in Turbo III you basically picked the one guy that got on your nerves (Which was me; even admitted in that game that it was from having OMGUS syndrome) and went super HAM on him until he flipped. None of that has come from you so far this game.

And before you ask: No, no I will not throw out your old Meta.

Originally Posted by T-Force

I'll go back to your's and YoshL's little spat here later on because I think it could be telling, but I wanted to address this first:

Is it such a bad thing that I want to do this? To take everything at face value from what's posted now rather than gain the context and biases of the previous phase? Everyone has their reads, their biases towards the other players; I do not. If the wolf is hiding amongst everyone's townreads from a previous phase, who's to say I can't figure them out with having a clear view from the one day? If you want to hate on me for it, go right ahead, but I think that this style could be beneficial.

Assuming you're town, you'll be lost whenever someone cites an old post, and won't have any context of it aside from the context being given to you by someone else (Which may or may not be a good thing). It also means we have to set around and wait for you to form reads on what's going on right now, which is just time consuming.

Buuuuuut if you're a wolf, well that's pretty beneficial for you, now ain't it? You have a great excuse to not be active and you can even toss bullshit ideas out to see if they gain any traction. If they do, great; if not, hey how could you know? You started D2, can't hate on you for that!

Basically the only real benefit to you from this viewpoint comes only if you are wolf.

Originally Posted by inDheart

10. MixMasterLar town

- post count theory has some merits, but it's weird to me to hammer so early on it d0, even voting wab in a mistake
- ...but honestly i think pinging the inactives would confuse your own application of that theory, and if i recall, your follow-up has used the same post count picture which is dated now, unless your point is that halfway through d0 tells all

1) It was interesting to see who felt pressure to post more after the postcounts where pointed out (IIRC we got almost all of SunFan's post after I made it into a deal) but alot of folks didn't really feel the need to post anymore. Since I valued people posting more over the theory I pinged folks (which is when we got YoshL posting at like 3 times the rate he was).

2) You remember incorrectly. Unless you mean later on when I posted the old one, color coded, for Mashi's benefit to check how it had all turned out. In which case, uh yeah, yeah of course the the point of that was referencing how d0 did in actually telling anything.

Originally Posted by inDheart

- his top 5 town from yesterday is more like a list of people who offended him the least to put in there

Expect YoshL and Gradiant are on that list, so this point is basically founded on bullshit.

[MixMasterLar]

YoshL I want you to know that I caught that you insinuated I was a retarded kid in you're recent reads list.

I'm going to cry to me mum about it later because of it.

[inDheart]

today's Post Writing Background Noise(tm) is Classical Music for Studying and Concentration

15. Charles Claythorne town -> null

- had a decent discussion with AA about me and whether my first unvote expressed particularly wolf-like qualities, which i think is pretty perceptive because it helped bring more focus to AA's vote reason
- had done some Appeal to Sunfan very early on, of which the below seems particularly egregious from his first reads dump:

Originally Posted by Charles Claythorne

XelNya - I originally had him as Slightly Human because I liked his thoughts in his long post (particularly the eagerness and bluntness he had about certain reasoning for suspicions, namely again AragakiAyase and MixMasterLar). I bumped him up a tier because sunfan also mentioned somewhere as reading him Human, and I think it's an indication that he is indeed probably Human.

- voted for Charu d0, which started as a call to get his act together but snowballed from there in terms of reasoning. in general he was really good about keeping us updated with his thoughts on this day. also in general he's not moved by things that just appear to be blind effort - he mentioned he's seen wolves put in the same kind of work that charu did just to seem invested and relatively townlike.
- showed a lot of ambivalence about the d1 lynch, winding up on wab because he didn't like wab's conversation with sunfan...somehow (still not too clear on the details of this)
- he hasn't pushed particularly hard in directions of his own after d0, and this may just be because he hasn't had the time to go read everything and, say, iso the inactive players like he meant to do

overall, he had a good d0 imo but his winning attitude has waned quite a bit since then. he mentioned that he likes to post complete thoughts before, but it certainly seems like he's been completing fewer thoughts lately.

16. YoshL town

- started out mostly playing defense because busy, but that led well into him ruminating on MML pretty deeply and running mental circles around him. MML has far and away been yoshl's biggest topic all game
- big block of thoughts looked okay, showing some secondary foci: dbp and zenith (both from meta)
- he and dbp had this thing going on where they both didn't seem instantly suspicious of each other for not playing like their usual selves, which boiled over near eod0 where they called each other on their play. this really reads like town vs town because they have strong expectations of each other that were not met up to then, be it by slight inactivity or inattention
- d1, in lieu of other things to discuss because people were being inactive, he pushed into speculation on the night kills, but got jumped on by sunfan. yoshl's side of it is still the one that makes sense to me, though - it's new information, why not talk about it
- he focused on xiz for a bit as well, again with an eagerness to be thinking two or three steps ahead
- favoring zenith at first for a lynch on d1 is consistent with his d0 thoughts; his wabby vote is more of a non-sequitur and he knows that
- he's aware of his own myopia from looking so hard at MML up to the current day, though

yoshl has been playing a rather self-aware and conscientious game since joining the thread proper, and while he's hit pretty hard on MML, he's showed a willingness to poke in other directions which has gotten more pronounced today

@sunfan other two reads posts below: (fixed the typo i mentioned, "reread" -> "first read" and removed the extraneous comment from the first post)

Originally Posted by inDheart

6. DaBackpack town

(i did this one in reverse post order and you can probably tell)

- fwiw i think dbp's entrance was hilarious, and the only one really calling attention to that flipped red (at least, the only one i remember, because xel never shut up about it lmao)
- he brings up yoshl's behavior and then elaborates on that (see below for more as well) earlier on d0, which is notable for his consistency later on calling this out
- he read into Mashi pretty hard in search of someone to push d0, calling him generally too neutral. gradiant called him out for this post, but i see it more as resignation that what he's saying isn't gaining much traction. in response to gradiant he comes back to yoshl and mashi. then he really pushes yoshl hard. (i have more to say on this later)
- but this post, one of his more recent ones (from d1), likes yoshl's point about MML's vigi focus potentially being a setup for a later vigi cover-up claim. yoshl has been pretty zoned in on MML, but DBP called the focus on MML "worrisome" on d1. (this is in contradiction to early d0 where he did not feel as good about MML and called him "my top wolf lean", but consistent with later d0 where he's iso someone else to look at)

i definitely see dbp as town, because his observations and focus have been consistent with trying to search out good lynch candidates - just because of the timing and with so many people wolf reading him, they didn't gain better traction.

9. _Zenith_ null -> wolf

- did a quality first read (honestly that's to be expected though)
- he (and DBP) probably put the most thought into tokzic's situation
- part of why i see you as more null, though (switching to second person because you're here as i write this), is after that you mostly zoned in on yoshiisland. sure that turned out okay. you're up front about not putting as much work in, but island is an interesting target to focus on when your previous day's impression was null -> town and even "who". sunfan was in the right to call you out about your second round of reads, really
- you don't get points for being right about xel when you gave up on xel's meta. you don't get points for being right about tokzic when you voted for the lynch in full support of gradiant, who called him scum for lying.

you just seem over-eager to go "hey look guys look what i did" when there are little mini contradictions in your play that belie the earnesty of your efforts.

Originally Posted by inDheart

10. MixMasterLar town

- yeah i'm still reading him as town but i'm dropping the "didn't read the setup" reason because it's stupid at this point
- if there's anyone i'm going to call "bad town" it's MML
- post count theory has some merits, but it's weird to me to hammer so early on it d0, even voting wab in a mistake
- ...but honestly i think pinging the inactives would confuse your own application of that theory, and if i recall, your follow-up has used the same post count picture which is dated now, unless your point is that halfway through d0 tells all
- he said this was his 4th game and claimed VT pretty organically, which i can see as a legit claim because of how voluntary it was
- ...but really failed to respond to yoshl in a reasonable, substantive way (hence my "MML sux yoshl rulz" post)
- however, i do see an eagerness out of him to solve the game, even if it doesn't seem to be doing much for his reads
- his top 5 town from yesterday is more like a list of people who offended him the least to put in there
- yet for his recent play, i like his tokzic push and his recap of the aftermath above about what we can learn from the people forcing insta there. still waiting to see how he feels today, but i like his hustle.

13. T-Force null

- just entered the game so nbtj yet
- so the following is a reread of ben:
- this one is probably my favorite penguin post, as it picked on red blaster for putting nothing on top of barely anything. the post that sunfan supposedly thought he was townie for just reads like utter fluff to me though, like it's something made of nothing
- he talked to MML about post count theory but most of his other posts are meme drivel and "sorry i'm not here"
- still wish i could have asked him about his charu vote, because it seems like his stated reason was borrowed straight from AA's iso, and he didn't have any previous engagement with the charu lynch squad's ideas. he certainly wasn't the first person to think "he can die" was weird

[inDheart]

wow i should have spoilered that or something oops

tmw you get to close all the tabs you opened looking up stuff though...ahhh

[MixMasterLar]

Names in no order within categories.

Scum Leans:
Zenith (recent posts)
InDHeart
T-Force (Less work is never good for town)

Null:
DaBackPack(A con is good alibi, people have a point about d0 EOD)

Town Leans:
Mashi
YoshL
TheSunFan


That's pretty much all the new content I can really bring ATM, other then Zenith and YoshL going at it the game has died down.

Which I know I ain't helping with at this point, but meh.

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

1) It was interesting to see who felt pressure to post more after the postcounts where pointed out (IIRC we got almost all of SunFan's post after I made it into a deal) but alot of folks didn't really feel the need to post anymore. Since I valued people posting more over the theory I pinged folks (which is when we got YoshL posting at like 3 times the rate he was).

2) You remember incorrectly. Unless you mean later on when I posted the old one, color coded, for Mashi's benefit to check how it had all turned out. In which case, uh yeah, yeah of course the the point of that was referencing how d0 did in actually telling anything.

1) "interesting" maybe, but i have a hard time seeing it as a short-term predictor - ben mentioned anyone who was planning to post in a particular way could just switch up their behavior once they saw that. pretty sure sunfan and yoshl seeming to post more after that was just them both being around the thread at those times tbh (yoshl was o!ming, for instance - you can look up the match schedule and xref if you like lmao)

2) yeah i mean the color one

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

Expect YoshL and Gradiant are on that list, so this point is basically founded on bullshit.

your defense on yoshl is literally "I don't notice anything weird with his posting"

gradiant is more plausible but still don't know why you said "Was going to wait for me and him to get back into it before locking him in"

positive examples would be nice if you have them

[T-Force]

Where is Mashi?
Also, with all this silence, this may be easier to read the game than I thought... To D2~