08-25-2022, 03:32 AM | #101 | |
lol happy
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
To nobody's surprise, people like it when the arrows follow the music.
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Last edited by hi19hi19; 08-25-2022 at 03:53 AM.. |
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08-25-2022, 04:28 AM | #102 | |
Forever Derbyless
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
The point I’m raising is from the perspective of the song artist who we’ve all gone out to seek for permissions to use their work and not related to how FFR should remain outdated in the charting meta to cater to the older crowd. If a buffet potentially have many food options, is it intended for the chefs to go serve everything in their inventory to the hungry customers? They can if they want but in most buffets, that’s not the main goal. Similarly, in most cases, it’s not the main intention for the song artist to create content for FFR that calls for dump files. There are definitely exceptions to this rule (songs that are chaotic in nature like RATO) which would be fine stepped as dumps because it is T11’s intention to create that sort of chaotic content (which can be easily gauged from the music). I only see Legacy files as outdated files which didn’t have exposure to new stepping capabilities like ArrowVortex and DDReam. If I recall correctly, these files are manually created by inserting steps in Notepad? Now that we have more advanced charting mediums, accomplishing creating improved content compared to older times is much more straightforward. I am not opposed to removing older files (or any files that are deemed low quality) that don’t fit current standards of stepping and having it be fun to play, but I think that’s one controversial opinion I will continue to hold and will always receive push back when I actively make that heard lmfao.
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08-25-2022, 04:34 AM | #103 | |
lol happy
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
Put some of the current files in FFR that are dumpy into the separate category too, for example I would definitely support moving my Caffeine and Call me it. (500 Tortures) files to a dump category.
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Last edited by hi19hi19; 08-25-2022 at 04:36 AM.. |
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08-25-2022, 04:48 AM | #104 | |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
But this currently doesn’t need an answer now as I’m starting to digress from the initial conversation. Just some food for thought.
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Last edited by WirryWoo; 08-25-2022 at 04:51 AM.. |
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08-25-2022, 04:50 AM | #105 | |
Simfile Judge
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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Last edited by M0nkeyz; 08-25-2022 at 06:41 AM.. |
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08-25-2022, 09:00 AM | #106 | ||
[Nobody liked that.]
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
Quote:
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08-25-2022, 01:44 PM | #107 | |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
An altogether seperate category thats hidden from view or that behaves differently from the current song-list, i'd strongly oppose.
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Last edited by Lights; 08-25-2022 at 01:46 PM.. |
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08-25-2022, 08:55 PM | #108 | |
lol happy
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
I would suggest two different ranking systems but that seems pretty pointless when from the playing side the skillsets are basically identical, it's just the content of the levels. And besides, based on the attitude of the community, the Dumps Included leaderboard one would instantly become the "one that matters" anyway, so might as well let them be ranked in the first place.
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08-25-2022, 10:23 PM | #109 |
[Nobody liked that.]
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
I'm just gonna retread the thread since I was last here.
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08-25-2022, 11:42 PM | #110 |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
What would not ranking these files or putting them in separate leaderboards really hope to achieve though? Clearly, theres demand for this content. Clearly, theres a significant chunk of players that enjoy this content.
Saying "fine, we'll let them in, but they can't interact with any of the core aspects of FFR or be seen around the rest of the files" is only one step past "no, get these dumps out of here" and I don't see really who this would serve or benefit. Certainly not the players whom this content is ultimately being added for? If a file is deemed acceptable to be added into the game and the difficulty of the file is sane enough to be rated on the rating scale, it should be treated the same as every other file with regards to the game's leaderboards, average rank, etc.- even legacy files are factored into this and there is much more thats fundamentally wrong with them (by traditional FFR judging standards) than a well made dump file. Most of them would be laughed out of the batch if submitted today. And furthermore, I'm not keen on the comparison between dumps and legacy files- some of the legacy content doesn't even make sense and doesn't come close to fitting any benchmark as being a well made file. Sure, there were much heavier limitations at play for their creation than someone today popping into arrow vortex or a similar editor, but that doesn't change the fact that, for many, nothing is properly timed, theres no real attempt at coherent structure, and the patterning choices are bland and in many cases incredibly spiky in nature. These files have very little in common with a well made serious dump file and in no world do I think we should be seriously considering them as comparable entities on FFR.
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08-25-2022, 11:50 PM | #111 |
shots FIRED
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
I feel as if dumps attack FFR's identity, not that FFR had much of an mechanics-based identity that differentiated it from other rhythm games in the first place. The resistance against putting dumps side by side to normal files is because it brings the game closer to other simulator VSRGs, and in turn REDUCES the uniqueness of FFR. It's not that such files lack merit; it's that FFR has less and less that makes it attractively different from other games, besides maybe a lack of hold arrows. I'd love for FFR to invent a whole new mechanic, but we lack the resources to really make something totally new that stands out. Currently, what makes FFR unique has more to do with what types of charts the game has to offer as opposed to a gameplay-based distinction (except no holds of course). A lot of FFR's past identity was unfortunately based more on limitations rather than innovations. Some of these limitations that were resolved I think greatly improved FFR as a whole, such as weaning ourselves off of framer-based gameplay. But I'm not entirely sure how much FFR would benefit from dumps, though I'm totally willing to have them in the game as a separate category. To place them side by side with normal files is to introduce homogeneity to FFR's identity.
To me, dump files forces us to rethink FFR's identity, how much people even care about identity anymore, and if FFR's overall growth as a site and community can continue with limitations on potential innovations. Dumps to me is one more step towards a lack of uniqueness - but it remains to be seen whether new folks will choose FFR versus other VSRGs in the future. We're certainly getting a lot of new players currently, but they're mainly from pre-existing rhythm gaming communities and I'd like to see some more organic growth. At the very least, dumps are just catering to the echo chamber of seasoned rhythm gamers and we're not really doing much to make it attractive for new, novice players. Overall, we're looking more inwards than we are outwards IMO. Last edited by bmah; 08-26-2022 at 12:18 AM.. |
08-26-2022, 12:40 AM | #112 | |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
Does an identity even matter in that context? Like...pointing development at top players when most of them just wander by to break all the records and then go back to their previous game seems just as lacking in a real identity. Last edited by sff_writer_dan; 08-26-2022 at 12:40 AM.. |
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08-26-2022, 12:49 AM | #113 |
shots FIRED
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Even more of a reason to put greater focus towards organic growth rather than giving dumps for top players from pre-existing VSRGs to come and leave. You're right - many only have a temporary presence here and I can barely consider that actual growth towards the site.
Last edited by bmah; 08-26-2022 at 12:49 AM.. |
08-26-2022, 12:51 AM | #114 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
The issue is just...from where do you think we can get organic growth if not "From the people invested enough in other VSRGs to be into the genre enough to go looking for other places to do it"?
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08-26-2022, 01:02 AM | #115 |
shots FIRED
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
The organic growth comes from casuals, the general public. So I view folks like high-levelled players to be influencers in a sense, especially if they display their skills in videos, streams, and so on.
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08-26-2022, 02:17 AM | #116 | |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
Hi, Non-native fifferian here! allow me to share my experience coming to FFR from an outside source and why I tend to stick around- The community, the (relative to other VSRGs) unique take on scoring via raw goods, the events such as the OT, FFRMas, and previous OWL tournament, and all the different systems of tracking progression. (equiv rating lifetime / seasonal, AV-rank, skill tokens, even tier points). Those are ordered from most to least relevant btw. By far, the most appealing part of FFR is the community. When compared to similar rhythm games theres no contest, the people here are generally rather friendly and mature and quite frankly the game could be like it was in 2005 and i'd still at least be here to hang out. But beyond being full of good company: Raw goods is a fun scoring metric thats a lot less ambiguous than some seemingly arbitrarily calculated osu!mania score value or a wife3%, it feels like every error has a lot more weight to it and it introduces, to me, a different way to approach playing. Or at the very least, a different way to set scoring goals. Obviously I don't need to explain why the events around here are appealing, nor all the different numbers FFR chooses to track, but I can summarize it as FFR having a lot of "minigames" built into the same overall gameplay. theres a deceptively diverse set of things going on. maybe this week youre equiv grinding, then you have a session working on token unlocks or tierpoints and now hey, new tournament / event is starting soon. Sure, osu!mania has its fair share of tournaments, but honestly I think FFR does them better and certainly has more variety in format. All of this is to say that theres more to FFRs outward appeal than the charts on the engine. A lot of the content on FFR I had previously been exposed to before I really knew what FFR was via etterna packs and to me they just came off as just another file to be played. I never came here to experience this unique set of content because, to me, it already wasnt that unique to begin with and i didn't realize that the content on here was of a very specific type and grade until someone eventually told me. With the benefit of more time and playing more files, sure, theres a strong tendency to some more technical content which is less common on some rhythm games, but I cant say it was ever an influencing factor in what initially prompted me to pick up the game. It was those things I mentioned above, there being dumps in the list of charts wouldn't have even factored into the decision making process. Sure, I'm only one person, everyones experience and priorities are going to vary- If nothing else, I hope it at least contextualizes the angle I'm coming at this from.
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Last edited by Lights; 08-26-2022 at 02:26 AM.. |
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08-26-2022, 05:49 AM | #117 | |
Forever Derbyless
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
This is at least where I thought FFR’s true identity lie and this is why I primarily disagree with having dumps in game. Imagine getting permissions from Silvia and seeing the majority of their discography be publicized on a rhythm gaming medium as step files of similar quality to Vertex BETA vrofl. Because the steps are essentially filler noise in dump files, I stand by my disagreement of having dumps in game because “dumps miss many opportunities to acknowledge music rhythmically as intended”. Also in this hypothetical situation, from Silvia’s perspective, it can easily be interpreted as disrespectful for stepcharts to fail to acknowledge the rhythms observed by listening to the music. Having the player base play these maps further reinforces that because players will associate their music as that “dump file on FFR” (we saw that trend with Death Piano back then). Dumps are fine when the music is intended to sound “dumpy” (no negative connotation implied here, rather using dumpy as an adjective to say that the music warrants a very challenging file similar to other dumps in game), but because most music isn’t like that, I believe that dumps should be generally discouraged on FFR. I personally dislike music that sound “dumpy” to me because it is displeasing to my ears, so having too many dumps will only attract a certain crowd of people which is not what we want.
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Last edited by WirryWoo; 08-26-2022 at 06:02 AM.. |
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08-26-2022, 09:55 AM | #118 |
for you, eternally
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
With all due respect to everyone here: please stop comparing dumps that would be accepted in the dump batch to vROFL in any capacity. Make a better comparison. It's heavily insulting to judges and stepartists no matter how you slice it and no matter where you stand on how (in)competent the aforementioned people are.
I don't have anything else to say on the matter because I've been in DMs with relevant people about the topic and issues that are related to judging. Last edited by Wiosna; 08-26-2022 at 09:58 AM.. |
08-26-2022, 10:54 AM | #119 | |
Forever Derbyless
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quote:
To song artists who in most cases aren't so experienced with rhythm gaming, vROFL and other dumps appear similarly to them so I am mainly speaking from their perspective. This isn't implying that all accepted dumps in Dump Batch are of similar quality to vROFL (and it is not what I'm implying by mentioning it).
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08-26-2022, 11:38 AM | #120 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
By paragraph again:
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