Judging

[GuidoHunter]

I don't get it.

Earlier today, there were some Evangelical Christians from Open Air Ministries on the SMU campus. They had a permit to preach for an hour, so there were about five guys who took turns standing on a bench and yelling to a gathered crowd outside of our student center. The main idea of what they were doing was to get us to repent, for we are sinners and will go to hell. They also mentioned that we gave a bad name to Methodists because we were drunkards and fornicators due to our weekend partying habits. This struck a nerve with some of the crowd, so arguments ensued, later turning to how all those people (and homosexuals and others) are going to hell if they don't repent.

So, in a debate between one of the guys and a girl from the crowd, I hear the girl shout, in an offended tone (sorry for not having the context), "Don't judge me!"

I thought to myself, "Self, what did that fellow say to elicit such a response, and what did her admonition mean?" This wasn't the first time I was confused about such a statement. I've heard such a line before, the previous time I could recall being on television where a lady told a man to not "sit there and judge [her]".

I can't actually come up with an explanation for this. What is a judgment and why is it so offensive? The only thing I can think of is it being an opinion of another in one's mind. This seems to be a logical idea, but why is it bad? We do that on a regular basis to lots of people! It's also just an opinion, which is, in most cases, harmless.

I ask, so what if it is even laced with hypocrisy? In such a case, attack the hypocrisy and not the perfectly normal judgment.

Such a line is often heard in debates with Christians, I've seen. People call them judgmental, but I don't really understand that. If you have ever uttered these, or like, words, why did you say that and what prompted your response?

I may be way off base here, so help me out.

What's wrong with being judgmental?

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[MalReynolds]

Ask Tass. He's good at it.

Mal

[Eyoshi]

I guess I'll be developing my opinion as I type.

I think whether it's right or wrong to be judgmental depends on what reason one's judging is based on. If one being judgmental can back up with facts, then he/she can be judgmental. However, reasons that include things such as stereotyping don't validate one to be judgmental.

In this case, I think the girl has good reason to be offended. I don't know if she's a partyer or not, but why should she be lumped along with drunks, losers, slackers, and jerks? In my opinion, all those guys were doing was stereotyping college students.

Then again, I could be seen hypocritical myself at times with the topic of judging.

[cmb]

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 this is Paul speaking''it isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders,but it is certainly is your job to judge those in side the church who are sinning in these ways.God will judge those on the outside;but as the scripture say,''you must remove the evil one from among you''.So if you are a christian don't worry about judging unbelievers God will judge them just worry about judging people who claim to be christian(see 1 corinthians 5:11).Also those christians didn't pick the best approach to spread the Good News although their right,it just wasn't the best way.

[cmb]

Sorry i was rushing i meant to say judge people who claim to be christian but still do these sins.

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by Eyoshi

I guess I'll be developing my opinion as I type.

I think whether it's right or wrong to be judgmental depends on what reason one's judging is based on. If one being judgmental can back up with facts, then he/she can be judgmental. However, reasons that include things such as stereotyping don't validate one to be judgmental.

In this case, I think the girl has good reason to be offended. I don't know if she's a partyer or not, but why should she be lumped along with drunks, losers, slackers, and jerks? In my opinion, all those guys were doing was stereotyping college students.

Then again, I could be seen hypocritical myself at times with the topic of judging.

But why should anyone care if someone judges them without facts? Why should someone like Mother Theresa care if someone went up to her and said he thought she was a terrible person? She would shrug it off, because she knows it's not true. If it were true, well, is that a fault of the guy? No.

Why do people get upset if someone forms an opinion on them, wrong or not?

That girl WASN'T being lumped in with everyone else. Those preachers were targeting the sinners in the group. If she were part of that group, well, that's her fault. If she's not, well, she can brush them off. The thing is, she had NO reason to get offended.

If some random person forms an opinion about me, wrong or not, I'm not going to care. If it's someone I want to have a certain opinion about me, I'll do something to change it, but the other person has every right to form an opinion about anyone.

By the way, cmb, you completely missed the idea of this thread. Leave ALL religion out of it here.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Tasselfoot]

Mal... you post your stories looking for critics and opinions (at least, i hope... otherwise, why place them in CT). My "judgements" are merely, as Guido has been saying in this thread, my opinions on your pieces of literature. Frankly, I don't like them very much. I can see you're an intelligent guy and a unique thinker, and I have nothing against you... but I don't really like your works, and am more than willing to read and give my advice on how to make them better.

That said, being bitter in an attempt at humor in Guido's serious thread is uncalled for... even if it does serve me to respond and answer the question posed.

I think I'm rushing my post here, as normally I'd re-read, but WHorli is demanding my attention... so I am going.

[chickendude]

People who say that are looking for a quick way to make themself sound like they know what they're talking about.
People who say it generally say it with authority, and usually people submit.

Perhaps she meant: Don't prematurely judge me, but that doesn't seem like it in that case.

sometimes people say that because they are scared of being judged. They don't like it when people critcize them. People are generally taught in school to take criticism (like getting a test or a paper back) but some people just don't get the idea.

People get sore about it instead of trying to engage in intelligent debate.
-It's just a sign of over-agressiveness or lack of knowledge in how to debate and take criticism and rebuke it.

[MonkeyFoo]

I agree with chickendude. People don't want to be prejudged, because they feel like when someone comes and makes blanket statements about them, whether it is because they are college students who go to parties, or they are just of a particular race, people are expecting them to have certain characteristics of the group that they may not share. For example, the notion that everyone at Guido's campus is a drunkard and a fornicator. My opinion is confusing me. I turn to someone else now to tell you why labeling is bad:

Tom Harpur, Ethicist and writer on spirituality and religion, April 4, 1993
"Humanity must force itself to stop labelling people." Toronto Star, Pg. B7

While labelling can and does perform at times a helpful social function in that it makes it possible to make some necessary generalizations about various aspects of our social, economic and political life - for example, about what the so-called consumer wants or about the needs of teenagers or the hopes and values of baby boomers - nevertheless, it is a potentially lethal habit.

The ingrained, constant and uncritical use of our species' labelling propensities can destroy social harmony and, in its most demonic phase, it fuels the insanity called war. The problem with labels is that, as the word stereotype itself suggests (from the Greek word stereos meaning rigid, stiff, hard), they have no flexibility. They impose a rock-like image which strips the specific person or thing being labelled of any individuality or freedom to be himself/itself. In other words, they limit one's vision. You can only see the person or object so labelled in one way. Usually, this means negatively.

Used for people, labels tend to divest the person of his or her humanity. In the almost unspeakable horror now being perpetrated by all sides in former Yugoslavia, the crimes against humanity are only possible because all humanity is being forgotten. The names, Serb, Croat, Muslim, all have now become labels loaded with hate in the minds and on the lips of the corresponding antagonists. Anything, rape, torture or mass murder, can then be done to these impersonal "objects," these hateful "things."
(end quote)

From this of course it is clear that making judgements about people places labels on them, identifies them with stereotypes, and therefore leads to... mass murder.

[Jam930]

If noone ever judged anyone else... I think there'd be a lot missing in life from culture, music, style, fashion, elitism, appeal, trends, demand, etc.

Whether they're good or not is just opinion but they're important and add variety.

Oh and I like how people only yell "Don't judge me!" when they're being judged negatively. hah. =p

[ramonesfan]

Sorry if I am bringing up an old topic, but I wanted to reply....


I personally don't care about a person's initial judgement of me. Often times, that changes and I realize that. The only problem I have with someone judging me is when they say stuff about me behind my back that they believe is true from their initial judgement. I personally wear jeans and a t-shirt to school everyday. Not because I'm a punk, I just prefer to wear these clothes, and find them comfortable. Because of the way I dress, I believe some people see me as a punk, when really, in my opinion, I am not. I am one of the few in my highschool who hasn't smoked weed, drank alcohol, or commited various crimes. But still, because I don't wear a collared shirt and khakis to school, I am seen as a punk.


Basically, I am saying: it is fine to judge someone, just get to know the person you are judging before you REALLY decide what the person is like.

[Sol_Solis]

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter

But why should anyone care if someone judges them without facts? Why should someone like Mother Theresa care if someone went up to her and said he thought she was a terrible person? She would shrug it off, because she knows it's not true. If it were true, well, is that a fault of the guy? No.

Why do people get upset if someone forms an opinion on them, wrong or not?

That girl WASN'T being lumped in with everyone else. Those preachers were targeting the sinners in the group. If she were part of that group, well, that's her fault. If she's not, well, she can brush them off. The thing is, she had NO reason to get offended.

If some random person forms an opinion about me, wrong or not, I'm not going to care. If it's someone I want to have a certain opinion about me, I'll do something to change it, but the other person has every right to form an opinion about anyone.

By the way, cmb, you completely missed the idea of this thread. Leave ALL religion out of it here.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

I agree with you, but we all dislike to be 'judged' one way or another, simply because of the fact that we are aware of our flaws and don't need to be criticized for them because that will only anger you wether or not they are true or not. Because change
Or she wasn't just thinking about what she was saying. It's probably been imprinted in her mind, and feels that it is right, but does not bother to think about it.
Or she also may have disliked it because maybe she is a "sinner", but does good also and there is more to people than what they don't do right? I don't know, just a thought.

[iggymatrixcounter]

Some good points have ben brought out so far.

She could also utter such a statement because she fears the truth. It's been my experience that when someone realizes something about someone else, most people don't want to accept it just because of pride. They don't want people to know who they are and won't let them make conclusions about themselves, even if they are true.

Ex: I say to someone who smokes "Stop smoking it's bad for you." They say "Don't judge me." Reason? They know it's bad but thier pride doesn't want others to make those assumptions/facts about them. Plus the smoker may say that thinking that one is better than the other in different aspects of life so they shouldn't say anything because you or me as other flaws possibly greater than the flaw in question. (So basically the person said 'don't judge' because they know that while thier smoking habit is bad, the other person may kill people in the mafia therefore the latter is worse than the former and has no "right" to judge no matter how correct the statement, "Don't smoke," is.)

[The_Q]

Allow me to share a personal experience and, like cmd, even throw in a little bit of a Biblical text that struck me once.

This Friday I was out with my church youth group. Of course, there are always people who don't get along with me and I don't get along with them and as we're a rather small group most of us know each other's stances on certain points. One girl who normally gets on my nerves for being very immature ( a judgement I passed over 3 years of being around her) told my friend and his girlfriend to "stop the gayness under the table." I was immediately insulted. Using "gay" as a derogatory term is way against my policy and almost everyone knew it. As soon as I started to voice my objections to her use of the word in such a manner she plugged her ears with her fingers and began to sing to herself that she couldn't hear me. I slumped back in my chair and two words slipped past my lips that I never intended to be uttered out loud. "Spoiled brat." The words that were exchanged afterwards were rather heated until she went off to drag a female friend of mine to the restroom to yell at her about my misdeed.

The remainder of the weekend, until today, I allowed those words to haunt me, to echo inside the cavernous and seeminly empty expanses of my head that allowed the words to creep out to begin with. Eventually I became so bothered with it that I wrote the girl a letter that, essentially, said that I was sorry for saying that and I was wrong to. I should have also called myself a pompous jackass. I'm still upset at her uncivil behavior and decision to attack my beliefs after years of knowing them and I asked her to please change them, as I would do the same for her if we were in opposite places.

I handed her the letter which she read. Honestly, the only reason I wrote a letter was because if I talked to her outright, she wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise. Trust me, that was also in the letter. She read the letter and later I was greeted by her with a hug and an apology.

I believe it's in Matthew that Jesus* mentioned that you should not "point out the speck in your brother's eye without first removing the plank from your own." I also believe that this one line of text sent away a valued memeber of this forum two summers ago. I'm fine with judging people just so long as you know that you yourself are not infalliable. I am pompous and I am a jackass quite often. I know that. I judge myself and others accordingly. I'm also sure that most people don't judge in this manner. I also think that's part of the problem. If you're going to judge someone, at least let them judge you too. It's always easier to get that started by letting them know you judge yourself.

*As for the religion bit. Well, I'm not too sure on the existance of God of late. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's not around, but that's not up for debate. What I do know is that there are stories about this Jesus guy. He was pretty smart. Many people agree. Whether or not he was holy, he's a pretty cool cat and he's worth listening to some of the time. This is probably one of those times.

Q