08-15-2021, 05:27 PM | #21 |
the Haku
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
Maybe FFR could have multiple FC metrics ?
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08-15-2021, 05:30 PM | #22 |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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08-15-2021, 05:47 PM | #23 | |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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And yes I had either a thread or started a discord conversation (or both honestly) regarding the implementation of AA in FFR, which I believe setting at 99% of max raw score would work best. This would likely be the greatest incentivizing metric possible. In the scenario where that's implemented, then yes sure I guess count the FC*'s with no restrictions and players can choose to focus on AAs if they want to actually improve. Though I still think a FC bar that entertains the possibility of mindlessly mashing through every chart is pointless to have, but at least you'll have a cleaner solution and definition for it. Last edited by One Winged Angel; 08-15-2021 at 05:54 PM.. |
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08-15-2021, 06:02 PM | #24 | ||
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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That being said, you could still get a low enough boo count, get a single miss, and not earn the FC. So from a completionist mindset, where a player doesn't want to focus on skill rating at any given time, they'd Still be incentivized to mash the harder sections of the charts they can almost do well enough on, just to grab these few more FC points. For these reasons, I feel like the arguments presented so far for a "relative % boos FC" are weak, and that a "AA" equivalent metric would suit the premise much better as some kind of "you did good enough" metric. Last edited by xXOpkillerXx; 08-15-2021 at 06:03 PM.. |
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08-15-2021, 06:11 PM | #25 |
the Haku
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
Well, it depends if there's some value into filtering FCs per quality.
e.g: Normal FC vs Non-mashed FC(?) vs clean FC vs SDG FC. This is more for the Engine than the FC bar tbh. It's fun to track for giving yourself goals. I personally think the FC/AAA/TP bar should at some point be replaced with condensed information that is relevant to the current reality of the game which is still being discussed atm. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Here We Go had different requirements that is more "raw scoring friendly". It all depends on how we want the game to evolve to suit the player's need. I'm assuming we have FCs because it's a fun stat to track for progressing when AAA doesn't feel realistic. |
08-15-2021, 06:16 PM | #26 |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
Keeping the FC bar and having FC* count towards that, while adding an additional SDG or AA bar (don't know if we need to have both necessarily) is what I'd like to see personally
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08-15-2021, 06:18 PM | #27 | |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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I'm in the camp that finds this statistic pointless to track if the latter is something players will end up doing. That's the extent of what I'm willing to argue about this. Last edited by One Winged Angel; 08-15-2021 at 06:19 PM.. |
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08-15-2021, 06:21 PM | #28 |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
I've always seen the fc as a step towards the aaa. The fc bar should count fc* though. It's never felt good to lose a fc if I got a better raw score that happens to have a miss. It feels like I'm going backwards.
I'm indifferent on a sdg/AA bar. Seeing sdg in the client is good enough for me. |
08-15-2021, 06:33 PM | #29 | |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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I can't argue that bold section; what you find meaningful in a game is purely subjective. Therefore for that same reason, if a non-negligible amount of players consider it a fun metric, the decision to keep it or not is Entirely up to "do you think there are enough players who like that metric to warrant keeping it ?", and not "do you think the metric is meaningful". This is basic game design, and can be seen in countless games where there's some accomplishment/completion stat which has nothing to do with the main path/quest/metric of the game. In bold are somewhat contradictory statements. A significant amount of PBs from all the player base are close to AAA but not an FC. Also as others mentionned, FC* does incentivize mashing for that specific metric, therefore if it counted it would most definitely be Less of a step towards AAA than it currently is. Last edited by xXOpkillerXx; 08-15-2021 at 06:34 PM.. |
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08-15-2021, 07:19 PM | #30 |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
I get understanding my statement as contradictory. I dont think there's much reward to mashing fc's in terms of both improvement and the tokens associated with the fc count. So I'm not really worried about potentially incentivising mashing for fc's. Maybe I'm a bit naive on that idea. I'm not against adding a requirement for a maximum limit of boos to have an fc count.The 2% max boo cut-off mentioned earlier in the thread seems reasonable to me.
I'll admit losing the fc on a better score is more of an emotional complaint. |
08-15-2021, 08:12 PM | #31 |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
Ok. There seems to be 2 main thought processes in here.
1. Relevance of secondary metrics regarding how we measure skill. I can't emphasize enough the fact that it's perfectly fine for any game to have metrics/elements that aren't related to the main focus of the game. People have to accept that not everybody find meaning/fun in the same things. If however you are adamant on redefining FC to become relevant to today's skill measure (since it was the case with Combo scoring), AND do not agree with point 2. below, please mention it. 2. Importance of a "good enough" metric. The closest we have to this is SDG (Single Digit (Raw) Goods). This flag is fun, and I believe most people like it. However, although it's a nice metric that should stay, SDG is pretty close to a AAA relative to most songs note counts and/or structure. Most suggested redefinitions of FC tend to reflect a need for a more loose, "good enough" metric that could be similar to a Etterna/Stepmania AA. I believe that with the implementation of such a metric, we would effectively satisfy most requests stated here. --- If there is enough agreement on this, I will start a new thread to discuss that new metric. |
08-15-2021, 11:40 PM | #32 | |
owo
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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08-16-2021, 10:03 AM | #33 |
The Dominator
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
The whole point of any progress bars / stats / etc. is so that you can glean useful information about a player's skills
The current FC bar tells us nothing because mashing of FCs exist...not to beat a dead horse lol Seeing as the current skill rating meta is based on raw goods and combo means nothing then why bother with an FC progress bar at all? An SDG progress bar seems like a great idea. |
08-16-2021, 10:33 AM | #34 | |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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08-16-2021, 12:39 PM | #35 | |||||
Forever Derbyless
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
My opinion is to just simply hide (not necessarily remove) FC statistics on the profile. I have a few reasons to believe this.
Firstly, Dynam0 is correct in stating that the main goal of capturing statistics is to study useful information about a player's skillset. Back in the days when combo-based scoring played a significant role in defining player skills, FC counts actually represent something meaningful to the playerbase. Fast forward to today when raw-based scoring is now in effect, these counts had no relevance to the Skills Rating Formula used to measure AAA equivalency. Because of this, what was once a useful stat now became meaningless in today's standards due to this change of definition of "skill". To address a few potential points: Quote:
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If we are extremely adamant about wanting to track FC's for "completionist reasons", incorporating FC* makes the FC stat much more confusing and incentivizes mashing: a) Every current statistic in the game track information about the current state of your best scores. If you look at your level ranks, you can easily see what songs are AAA'd, FC'd, etc. If FC* is incorporated in the FC count, you should have a second column tracking what your best FC score is for each song to add more transparency on what is being counted as an FC* or not. Otherwise, you'll get questions like "What is an FC*?" But having two high scores per song is already too ridiculous of an idea. b) FC* definitely encourages mashing... If you want to be completionist about filling up the FC + FC* bar, it's not going to be too challenging to mash your way through the song to at least register a FC* per song, and then replace all your high scores with your PBs. So introducing FC* would also encourage terrible gameplay for very little gain (since FCs don't matter in skill rating anyways...). The only gain you get from it is your satisfaction of completing the FC bar. In my opinion, not worth it. I am however +1 for SDG bar. I'd ideally prefer it to be a different color or pattern laid on top of the AAA bar instead of it being considered a second bar in itself on the profile.
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08-16-2021, 01:53 PM | #36 |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
Fwiw I'm 100% ok with removing FC's as a tracked metric. The point about the difficulty of its removal was mostly my quick thoughts, but if it turns out to be a simple thing then that just makes things simpler
I was mostly arguing the scenario where if it's to stay, it shouldnt stay as it is right now because it's not optimal at all. Last edited by xXOpkillerXx; 08-16-2021 at 01:54 PM.. |
08-16-2021, 02:12 PM | #37 | |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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If FC's weren't tracked yet, then I do agree it shouldn't be tracked now. Just like playing with index, playing on rates, playing on Legacy engine, playing semi-pettanko, etc. |
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08-16-2021, 02:24 PM | #38 | |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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However, my scores will not be wiped because they're removing Legacy engine. Similarly, their scores will not be wiped because they're removing the FC bar on the profile. If they really care about FCs, they should be happier about the scores they receive on their accounts. If the only definition of value for these players are simply "filling up the FC bar", then I honestly don't know what to say lmfao.
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08-16-2021, 03:36 PM | #39 | |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
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2) You saying that %range of files for certain 'Normal/Achievement' Token unlocks is generous because of number of files is also ignoring the lower level players that are still going to be going for the unlock by, you know, mainly mashing it because they're not at the skill level that the majority of files you're talking about are at. |
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08-16-2021, 03:45 PM | #40 |
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Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation
It's as if you've never in your life seen someone enjoy a completely optional side quest or minigame of any game ever. Can't you let people have their own fun that doesn't 100% match yours ? Smh. Yes there have been legit arguments on both sides, but the more you post the more it's about "a feature you dont care about shouldn't exist".
Last edited by xXOpkillerXx; 08-16-2021 at 03:47 PM.. |
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