Theory of mind

**Specforces** · 06-9-2005, 09:09 PM

Do animals have theory of mind?

Animals are said to have no theory of mind and act upon instinct alone, except of course the dolphin and some primates. (I'll get back to that later.) If animals have no theory of mind and act upon instinct alone, then why do they do our commands I hear you ask. They may sit and lie down etc, but remember they were trained by using positive and negative reinforcements remember and are only doing what you ask for these treats or to avoid punishment. Even if they don't want to do what we say, they're doing it or not doing it because they don't need food or are unwell, or even don't want pain if they've been treated badly for not doing something.

However if they do have a theory of mind like humans, then why do they not work towards self improvement and develop tools, much like chimps have been shown to do, and build colonies like we have. I mean the bee does, however there are no hospital sects(Is this just their way of living?)

~Spec~

AlbinoLime · 06-9-2005, 11:25 PM

Actually, I think I read somewhere that bees don't sleep, and why would a race like bee need a hospital? Well that's not your point. So anyways, I think animals do have a theory of mind, which is different than us. Why would a dolphin, apes, and humans differ so much from the rest of the animal kingdom. Sure many of the things animals do could be considered instinct, but I think that instinct can only go so far, and most of the actions and reactions we see from animals are learned traits. Sure there are differences between learned traits and theory of mind, but there are many similarities too so blah.

Most of the examples that I am thinking of have to do with apes and such, but I have heard of instances at zoos where a lion befriends an antelope, and such things that most would think go against basic animal instincts. Of course one could bring up the argument that the lion wont eat the antelope because the lion is already being fed by the zookeepers, but I would rather wonder why they put a lion with an antelope in the first place.

BlackAtrocity · 06-10-2005, 07:32 PM

It all really depends on the size of the animals brain. Animals tend to have smaller brains than humans which means they have less decision making powers. If you took a fish for example, it would act the same way every time almost to whatever stimuli you give it. That's just the way it works. Most mammals however have larger brains than most of the other animals. They therefore tend to have more responses to stimuli. That is probably why most of the instinct you see tends to be in your lower animals because their brains are less developed so they tend to do the same thing every time, hence instinct. This is a topic where my 10th grade biology finally came in handy.

jewpinthethird · 06-10-2005, 08:27 PM

It does rely on the intellegence of a species. Many of the more intellegent species of animals have learned how to use tools. Mostly mammals. Otters use rocks to bash open the shells of their prey, apes have also learned how to use tools. Even birds use tools to an extent...they eat gravel to help in the digestion process of seeds. But is solely instinct?

Why is it that humans have to get jobs? To earn money. Why do we humans need money? To ensure that the things we need to survive in life are paid for. Humans just use a more advanced versions of what other animals use.

Do animals have theory of thought? Well, humans do, and they are in the Kingdom Animalia. Some apes do to (to an extent).

The Evolution process of the human mind has just made mankind think it's more important in the grand scheme of things. But just because we cant quite comprehend what other animals may think, doesnt mean they dont.

DDR_9-footer · 06-11-2005, 06:10 AM

It may be possible that we humans (as we train animals) altar their "inscint" and therfore change their behavor and thought but yes i do think animals (as we no) relay mostly on inscint

jewpinthethird · 06-11-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDR_9-footer

It may be possible that we humans (as we train animals) altar their "inscint" and therfore change their behavor and thought but yes i do think animals (as we no) relay mostly on inscint

Can you revise that so it makes sense?

CaRmZ · 06-26-2005, 09:40 AM

of course they do.....don't all mammals and living creatures do...aren't us humans linked to monkeys or gorillas so if we r soo close to them they too must have a theory of mind......thats what I think

HamHack · 07-2-2005, 01:05 PM

some animals have theory of mind and some are retarded

ananana · 07-2-2005, 01:43 PM

Great input, Hamhack.

I don't know if this will add much, but wouldn't you need theory of mind to feel and express emotion?
And animals do express emotion.
When I was sick with the flu, my dog was able to sense something was wrong and tried his best to comfort me.
My other dog was depressed and moped around when my parents went out of town.
I guess that kind ties to what Jewpin had to say. We're just more advanced.

Austaph · 07-8-2005, 08:54 PM

What is it like to be a bat?

Mental states are subjective. The purpose of your poll is now owned.

jchman2004 · 07-27-2005, 06:03 AM

yes they do to a certain extent its not the same as ours though.

senate7377 · 07-27-2005, 06:37 AM

gotta go with Austaph on this one... its completely subjective...and the idea about the question is also subjective... i.e. PETA = People for Ethical Treatment of Animals OR People Eating Tasty Animals?

Austaph · 07-28-2005, 10:44 PM

"... the fact that an organism has conscious experience at all means, basically, that there is something it is like to be that organism."

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/nagel_nice.html

Toonah · 07-30-2005, 03:16 PM

LOL WTF WHO KEEPZ DELETING MY POSTS ON STUFF LOL Y DO I EVN RITE IT IF UR GONA DELETE IT THEN U MAKE ME LOOK STUPID

Lightknight924 · 07-30-2005, 07:12 PM

Weirdly, whenever I go up to my cat Drake. I can talk to him....Sometimes I even ask him to move his tail. Naturally I'd expect maybe a little flick from a reaction of his muscles in his tail. But, I'll say "Drake, take your tail up high and go thump!!!!!" So his tail will raise and thump. He does that whenever I ask him to. No training. Nothing. Then I'll say "Drake, if you can hear me don't take your tail up high and go thump" for how many seconds I say. He will not move his tail for at least a close amount to the number I said. Maybe he has counting problems. Idk. Then, once I needed to get him inside. So this black cat came up upon my door and i told him "Midnight, bring forth Drake back upon these steps of fellow one of the sacred side." don't ask...long story. About an hour later I see drake wating upon my steps and in the distance I see the other cat Midnight. I nodded to him and brought Drake back inside. Talent? IDK....weird huh? lol

Chocoborider29 · 08-3-2005, 05:33 PM

It is somewhat evident that some animals have a basic understanding, such as is displayed by the book White Fang by Jack London. A dog got curious nearing the warm light. When he went to sniff it, an unpleasnt surprise awaited him as his nose recieved an almost nip of sensation. He never got too close to the campfire again. It is the act of action/reaction in the brain that tells my dog "Hey, I get punished every time I piss on the carpet! How wierd!!"

Ultimablah · 08-5-2005, 08:35 PM

Each animal has the ability to comprehend, just on limited scales based on physical construct.

Evolution would EVENTUALLY allow them to do what us humans can do, but the reason they don't do it in 1 generation is because they physically can't learn that fast.

View Poll Results: Do Animals have theory of mind?
Yes	7	31.82%
No	1	4.55%
To a certain extent, the nature of which is different than our own	14	63.64%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

06-9-2005, 09:09 PM	#1
Specforces Yes Join Date: Jan 2004 Age: 38 Posts: 5,028	Theory of mind Do animals have theory of mind? Animals are said to have no theory of mind and act upon instinct alone, except of course the dolphin and some primates. (I'll get back to that later.) If animals have no theory of mind and act upon instinct alone, then why do they do our commands I hear you ask. They may sit and lie down etc, but remember they were trained by using positive and negative reinforcements remember and are only doing what you ask for these treats or to avoid punishment. Even if they don't want to do what we say, they're doing it or not doing it because they don't need food or are unwell, or even don't want pain if they've been treated badly for not doing something. However if they do have a theory of mind like humans, then why do they not work towards self improvement and develop tools, much like chimps have been shown to do, and build colonies like we have. I mean the bee does, however there are no hospital sects(Is this just their way of living?) ~Spec~ __________________ Check Out My Music

06-9-2005, 11:25 PM	#2
AlbinoLime FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 101	RE: Theory of mind Actually, I think I read somewhere that bees don't sleep, and why would a race like bee need a hospital? Well that's not your point. So anyways, I think animals do have a theory of mind, which is different than us. Why would a dolphin, apes, and humans differ so much from the rest of the animal kingdom. Sure many of the things animals do could be considered instinct, but I think that instinct can only go so far, and most of the actions and reactions we see from animals are learned traits. Sure there are differences between learned traits and theory of mind, but there are many similarities too so blah. Most of the examples that I am thinking of have to do with apes and such, but I have heard of instances at zoos where a lion befriends an antelope, and such things that most would think go against basic animal instincts. Of course one could bring up the argument that the lion wont eat the antelope because the lion is already being fed by the zookeepers, but I would rather wonder why they put a lion with an antelope in the first place.

06-10-2005, 07:32 PM	#3
BlackAtrocity FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1	RE: Theory of mind It all really depends on the size of the animals brain. Animals tend to have smaller brains than humans which means they have less decision making powers. If you took a fish for example, it would act the same way every time almost to whatever stimuli you give it. That's just the way it works. Most mammals however have larger brains than most of the other animals. They therefore tend to have more responses to stimuli. That is probably why most of the instinct you see tends to be in your lower animals because their brains are less developed so they tend to do the same thing every time, hence instinct. This is a topic where my 10th grade biology finally came in handy. __________________ Reality is only an illusion, albeit, a very persistent one. -Albert Einstein

06-10-2005, 08:27 PM	#4
jewpinthethird (The Fat's Sabobah) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Palm Springs, California Posts: 11,711	RE: Theory of mind It does rely on the intellegence of a species. Many of the more intellegent species of animals have learned how to use tools. Mostly mammals. Otters use rocks to bash open the shells of their prey, apes have also learned how to use tools. Even birds use tools to an extent...they eat gravel to help in the digestion process of seeds. But is solely instinct? Why is it that humans have to get jobs? To earn money. Why do we humans need money? To ensure that the things we need to survive in life are paid for. Humans just use a more advanced versions of what other animals use. Do animals have theory of thought? Well, humans do, and they are in the Kingdom Animalia. Some apes do to (to an extent). The Evolution process of the human mind has just made mankind think it's more important in the grand scheme of things. But just because we cant quite comprehend what other animals may think, doesnt mean they dont.

06-11-2005, 06:10 AM	#5
DDR_9-footer FFR Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: hey this is every body tries to funny (Austin TX.) Posts: 71	RE: Theory of mind It may be possible that we humans (as we train animals) altar their "inscint" and therfore change their behavor and thought but yes i do think animals (as we no) relay mostly on inscint __________________ I live for Funcannon

06-26-2005, 09:40 AM	#7
CaRmZ FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 17	RE: Re: RE: Theory of mind of course they do.....don't all mammals and living creatures do...aren't us humans linked to monkeys or gorillas so if we r soo close to them they too must have a theory of mind......thats what I think __________________ CaRmZ

07-2-2005, 01:05 PM	#8
HamHack FFR Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New York Posts: 21	RE: Re: RE: Theory of mind some animals have theory of mind and some are retarded

07-2-2005, 01:43 PM	#9
ananana FFR Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atlanta Age: 36 Posts: 632	RE: Re: RE: Theory of mind Great input, Hamhack. I don't know if this will add much, but wouldn't you need theory of mind to feel and express emotion? And animals do express emotion. When I was sick with the flu, my dog was able to sense something was wrong and tried his best to comfort me. My other dog was depressed and moped around when my parents went out of town. I guess that kind ties to what Jewpin had to say. We're just more advanced.

07-8-2005, 08:54 PM	#10
Austaph FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New York Posts: 75	What is it like to be a bat? Mental states are subjective. The purpose of your poll is now owned.

07-27-2005, 06:03 AM	#11
jchman2004 FFR Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Age: 34 Posts: 50	yes they do to a certain extent its not the same as ours though.

07-27-2005, 06:37 AM	#12
senate7377 FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Warner Robins, GA Posts: 137	gotta go with Austaph on this one... its completely subjective...and the idea about the question is also subjective... i.e. PETA = People for Ethical Treatment of Animals OR People Eating Tasty Animals?

07-28-2005, 10:44 PM	#13
Austaph FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New York Posts: 75	"... the fact that an organism has conscious experience at all means, basically, that there is something it is like to be that organism." http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/nagel_nice.html

07-30-2005, 03:16 PM	#14
Toonah FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1	LOL WTF WHO KEEPZ DELETING MY POSTS ON STUFF LOL Y DO I EVN RITE IT IF UR GONA DELETE IT THEN U MAKE ME LOOK STUPID

07-30-2005, 07:12 PM	#15
Lightknight924 FFR Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New York Age: 31 Posts: 1,164	Weirdly, whenever I go up to my cat Drake. I can talk to him....Sometimes I even ask him to move his tail. Naturally I'd expect maybe a little flick from a reaction of his muscles in his tail. But, I'll say "Drake, take your tail up high and go thump!!!!!" So his tail will raise and thump. He does that whenever I ask him to. No training. Nothing. Then I'll say "Drake, if you can hear me don't take your tail up high and go thump" for how many seconds I say. He will not move his tail for at least a close amount to the number I said. Maybe he has counting problems. Idk. Then, once I needed to get him inside. So this black cat came up upon my door and i told him "Midnight, bring forth Drake back upon these steps of fellow one of the sacred side." don't ask...long story. About an hour later I see drake wating upon my steps and in the distance I see the other cat Midnight. I nodded to him and brought Drake back inside. Talent? IDK....weird huh? lol

08-3-2005, 05:33 PM	#16
Chocoborider29 FFR Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 99	It is somewhat evident that some animals have a basic understanding, such as is displayed by the book White Fang by Jack London. A dog got curious nearing the warm light. When he went to sniff it, an unpleasnt surprise awaited him as his nose recieved an almost nip of sensation. He never got too close to the campfire again. It is the act of action/reaction in the brain that tells my dog "Hey, I get punished every time I piss on the carpet! How wierd!!"

08-5-2005, 08:35 PM	#17
Ultimablah FFR Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 84	Each animal has the ability to comprehend, just on limited scales based on physical construct. Evolution would EVENTUALLY allow them to do what us humans can do, but the reason they don't do it in 1 generation is because they physically can't learn that fast. __________________ Bye.

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