The universe, it's expanding faster and faster?

[hatakikakashi]

I was channel surfing a while back and caught the last 5 minutes of something on discovery channel. It was talking about the expantion of the universe, and that not only is it expanding, but it is also accellerating as well. Leading some scientist to come to the hypothisis that there is some expansive force counteracting and overpowering gravity near the edge of the universe. Has anyone else heard anything about this? Is this really old news or what?

[GuidoHunter]

Well, to answer your question, you could either A) read Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time or B) read the thread on this exact same topic.

If this thread lives, I guess I'll repeat everything I said, but I'd rather not.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[hatakikakashi]

Where is the other thread at? and two Stephen Hawking must be really fast at writing books, because this is a recent discovery.

[GuidoHunter]

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...wtopic&t=22899

There it is. And no, it's not a recent thought. In fact, Einstein proposed the idea of a repulsive force (the cosmological constant) in the 1940s and spent the rest of his career trying to use it. He later claimed it was the biggest mistake of his life.

So, it was forgotten, but as you say now, people are looking into it again. Well, this isn't new, either, as I learned about it in the above book, written in 1988, and another book written in 1984.

Oh, and just because you saw this on a Discovery Channel special doesn't mean it's true. I heard reports of studies that found the universe is actually contracting on a Science Channel show. I'm actually willing to believe that the universe is expanding just because I've heard more supporting that idea, but science is far from a consensus as to whether or not the expansion is decelerating, static, or accelerating.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[blahblah18]

have you never heard of blue shift and red shift?
this is reeeeeealy old concept

[hatakikakashi]

I know what red and blue shift is. That's not what I'm talking about. I understand that the universe is expanding and that the farthest gallaxies are traveling faster than the closer ones. I'm saying that all the matter in the universe is ACCELERATING!! with no apparent outside force I saw radiotelescopic time lapse imagery taken over the course of several months and you could clearly see it. Science has yet to explain this. I'm not saying that there are no theories or even books, I'm just saying I thought it was an interesting topic to think about.

Thanks Guido for the link to the other thread but that isn't what I'm talking about either you've both misunderstood me. I will however look into reading the book you suggested. Einstien probably did theorize about what I am talking about. I didn't say it was a new thought I said it was a new discovery. Maybe I am wrong but still that's not what I said.


I still remember just a little bit about astronomy, back in high school I was the only one too get a 100% on all six semmester exams in that subject.

[blahblah18]

I believe the concept you're talking about might have to do with the idea that the speed of light is not really a constant, but rather its ever so slowly changing its speed, thus all things relative to it appear at a different speed.

[deposition]

This is why they the theory of the big crunch was proven false.

[Tasselfoot]

No shit depo.... that is absolutely obvious from the conversation, and has been well known for years.

Also, that is definately not the only other topic relating to astrophysics... there have been 4 or 5 of them. Just go through the forum, or use the search feature for "physics"

I'll again recommend some astrophysics books that AREN'T by Hawking... Faster than the speed of light by Joao Manguija or however I spelled his name in the other thread. That books is very interesting in its discussion of VSL during the Big Bang, and it may help you with this question. Also, for a solid astrophysics book all around that is for novices is Black holes and time warps by Kip Thorne. The first astrophysics book I ever read, it remains my timeless classic. I wrote one of my college entrance essays about concepts from that book.

As always, if anyone ever wants to chat about the cosmos or astrophysics, let me know. Its one of my hobbies/passions.

I don't feel like getting deep into the exact debate going on in this thread, as the points have been well covered.

PS - Poor Einstein and his constant. And his frilly hair.

[HamHack]

well i learned about this in earth science class and apparently the universe is expanding all the time. so all the objects in it are getting farther apart. IT's kinda like if u have some dough and raisins in it, when u bake the bread the raisins get farther apart. My earth science teacher mentioned this when we were learnign about stars and how light. Eventually tho, the universe is supposed to implode on itself and start over again or something

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by HamHack

Eventually tho, the universe is supposed to implode on itself and start over again or something

No proof for that, only theory.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[HamHack]

ur right lol, i blindly belive my es teacher!

[hatakikakashi]

Ok well umm... noone here seems to grasp what I am saying so I'll just stop asking little kids what they think, because everyone seems to keep misunderstanding what I am saying and none of what your suggesting has anything to do with what I'm asking. Except for blahblah18, although I don't think that's why what I'm talking about it happening.

Also the idea that the universe will implode isn't a theory, it's a hypothesis. That's what I want from you people, I would like to know your own hypothesis, not on way the universe is expanding, but on why it is expanding at an ever quicker pace.

Let's start simple. An object moving in space cannot change speed or direction unless acted apon by an outside force. Can we agree on that, at least?

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by hatakikakashi

I would like to know your own hypothesis, not on way the universe is expanding, but on why it is expanding at an ever quicker pace.

How in the hell are we supposed to know anything about it? All we know is what we hear and believe, and that's subject to the credibility of our source.

Anyway, if you want to take the idea of the cosmological constant, it's theorized to exist in the dark energy (the "missing" two-thirds of the supposed energy of the universe). I'd read back up on this, but I don't have the time at the moment.

Originally Posted by hatakikakashi

Let's start simple. An object moving in space cannot change speed or direction unless acted apon by an outside force. Can we agree on that, at least?

Of course, but there's no need to take this slowly.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Braydz]

This probably isn't going to make any sense and is going to be dis=proven within a matter of minutes, but I am just stating some thoughts that went through my mind. Please remember, I am still a high-school student.

Yes, it is true that an object moving through space will stay at a constant velocity, or 0 acceleration, if no other forces are acting on it. I cannot think of any forces that would be working on it from the inside. But maybe there could be something on the outside? There hasn't really been much research on this, as it is all just too far away etc, so I see this as a possibility. Again, please disprove anything I say here, I am always wanting to learn. But maybe a force from the outside is working on it, such as a large gravitation, nuclear or electromagnetic force. On the bases of gravity and elecrtomagnetism, an object accelerates as it gets closer to the object exerting this force, such as a planet. Now, I am not saying that there could be some massive planet on the other side of the universe; that is just absurd. I am only throwing in an idea that something on the other side of the universe is exerting a force on the universe, thus expanding it.

I can't go into this one in too much detail, as I am alot less educated than I wish I was, but maybe this has something to do with a parrallel universe. I was told in brief detail in a chemistry class last year that a parrallel universe is one theory floating around, where the atoms there have the charges in the electrons and protons switched. Again, I know next to nothing on this, but I know it is possible to create positrons.

Maybe someone can answer me with this one. What exactly is the outside of the universe made of, proven or theory? I always thought of the universe as a vast emptiness, filled with an extremely large ammount of galaxies. If the rest of the universe is nothing, how can nothing expand?

Again, please don't flame me for my stupidity. I am a young student throwing in ideas, and I give everyone permission to disprove my ideas or corrent me in any way. Just be nice.

[GuidoHunter]

Don't worry about it, Brady.

You're right that internal forces are nonexistant. But the whole discussion is on what force IS acting on the galaxies. Assuming that the universe actually is expanding and accelerating (I still don't believe that irrefutible evidence has come up to prove this, but for the sake of argument I'll go with it), the only known force to make any difference is the gravitational force. Just as the gravitational force is negligible at the quantum level, the strong nuclear, weak nuclear, and electromagnetic forces are far too weak to have any effect on celestial bodies. And when talking about the expansion of the entire universe (or, at least, its edges), the gravitational force can only apply when you describe entire galaxies as individual objects.

So, you have to remember that, yes, every galaxy is attracting every other galaxy in its locality (locality is defined as the distance at which the gravitational force has an appreciable value). Because of this, the net force on each galaxy is canceled out, since outer galaxies pull one way on a given galaxy and inner galaxies pull the other way. However, shouldn't the outer (oldest) galaxies be pulled in since there is a net force on it? One would think, but the galaxies are still moving away from each other, and accelerating while doing it. This is the mystery. What is it that counteracts and even overpowers the gravitational force?

Brady, yes, the parallel universe theories exist, but I can't find any pertinence to this topic. Oh, and for an "answer" to your question of what the edge of the universe is, check out the thread to which I linked hata earlier. It really depends on your definition of universe.

And hata, does this resemble what you were trying to say?

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Braydz]

Thanks Guido, that cleared up alot of things. And sorry for going off on tangents, I had something to link the parrallel universe to but I forgot as I was typing.

[hatakikakashi]

Excellent posts Brady and Guido

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter

Don't worry about it, Brady.

You're right that internal forces are nonexistant...

the only known force to make any difference is the gravitational force. Just as the gravitational force is negligible at the quantum level, the strong nuclear, weak nuclear, and electromagnetic forces are far too weak to have any effect on celestial bodies. And when talking about the expansion of the entire universe (or, at least, its edges), the gravitational force can only apply when you describe entire galaxies as individual objects.

Yes this is what I wanted. I have a couple ideas.

Remember learning about electromagnetic forces and polarities that determine whether or not two objects are attracted to eachother or repelled? Also the strong and weak nuclear forces, one attracts and the other repels, not based on polarity but rather on the distance between subatomic particals. Lastly there is gravity, everyone knows that gravity attracts matter to other matter, and that the force of gravity is weakend by distance. But unlike electro magnetizm and the strong and weak nuclear forces there is no force to counteract gravity(that I know of),if there is however, perhaps the gallaxies are far enough away from the rest of the universe that gravity is no longer affecting them as much as this other force. Causing them to accelerate away from the rest of the matter in the universe. It makes sense to me when I think that the strong and weak nuclear forces are defined by the space between the objects they are affecting. When they are close enough together they are attracted to each other, but if too far apart they are repeled. Maybe gravity is the same way.

That's my first idea.

Also I'm sorry I called you all little kids, that was wrong.

[Braydz]

Alot of people at school call me weird because of some of the things I come up with, and I'm not sure if this counts as one of them.

I'm not going to go into any detail about quantum physics or weak and/or strong nuclear forces as I have not covered those topics yet, but maybe the universe is just a small part of something alot bigger. Going back to theories, I remember there being a theory that our solar system could be an atom of some much bigger "universe". I'm not sure if this is true or not, but just say this universe had the same, or very similar, laws of physics as what we have. If an item is stretched, this can weaken the bonds between the atoms that make up the item. Maybe, just maybe, our universe is experiencing something along these lines, just over a much longer distance of time. The galaxies, or atoms, are slowly being moved away from one another due to being stretched.

Yes, I know this is farfetched, but it's late, I'm busy packing for camp and I couldn't think of anything real intelligent to say.

[hatakikakashi]

No that's great Bradyz

The other idea I have is that there is a difference between space and void. The universe is contained by space, outside there is void. Void=nothing absolute nothing, no energy of any kind no matter of any kind. I don't know if there is infinite void for space to expand into. I like your idea that something on the "outside" is the cause because it kind of ties into what I was leaving out of my first post, (I had to check a couple of rooms out and was interupted) I had it for a while but now I can't remember what it was that came to me as clearly. It had something to do with space expanding at the speed of light, causing a sort of vacume effect on the matter closest to it, like the slipstream effect when racing cars, so the farthest gallaxies would be being sucked towards the edge of the universe.

It's time for me to get off of work here pretty quick so I have to leave before I get to finish, maybe I'll come up with an idea in my dreams. Anyways thanks for the input this is getting very interesting (for me at least).