TWG XIII - Dark Matters: Crow's Best (Game Over) - Page 4

evilbutterfly · 03-27-2005, 04:31 PM

This is another case of "TPS isn't too great at saying what he means and therefore comes off very badly." He doesn't mean he's aiming for humans, he just worded it badly or something.

In the chat:

evilbutterfly87: it's not so much that you're aiming for a human
evilbutterfly87: it's that you're aiming for useless people
Tps7910: Yes

See, he's not aiming for a human, he's aiming for useless people and hoping they're a wolf. He just didn't word it so well.

Tps222 · 03-27-2005, 04:40 PM

evilbutterfly87: and man, you shouldn't aim for killing a human
Tps7910: Were going too
Tps7910: Most likely
evilbutterfly87: no
Tps7910: Statistics show
evilbutterfly87: we've killed wolves on day 1 plenty of times
evilbutterfly87: stats mean crap in TWG
Tps7910: Well, I'm sticking with my idea unless I see some incrimnating evidnce
Tps7910: My vote is subject to change, but there are more pros then cons in the strategy
Tps7910: We dont need to get a wolf on day 1
Tps7910: It would be better to scarifice a innactive human
evilbutterfly87: it's not so much that you're aiming for a human
evilbutterfly87: it's that you're aiming for useless people
Tps7910: Yes
evilbutterfly87: and hoping that you get lucky, maybe
Tps7910: If a wolf is active
Tps7910: He has a chance to slip up
Tps7910: Exactly
evilbutterfly87: you just word it badly
Tps7910: The only thing that can go wrong is if the innactive person is a sp role
evilbutterfly87: in your post, you basically say "i dont wanna kill wolves, i wanna kill inactives"
Tps7910: Well, are people that dumb to honestly think I meant that
Tps7910: What wolf would say that
Tps7910: Too obvious
evilbutterfly87: but still
evilbutterfly87: it makes you come off as stupid
evilbutterfly87: what you're saying isnt so bad
evilbutterfly87: it's just how you say it
Tps7910: Well, how can I fix it
flypie743: lol
evilbutterfly87: idunno man, you just have trouble communicating your ideas
Tps7910: Did my last post help at all
evilbutterfly87: well your new idea in that post, it wasnt very clear
Tps7910: How so
evilbutterfly87: you have alright ideas, you just gotta be clear and careful with what you so
Tps7910: Ok
evilbutterfly87: "I'm not going for a wolf on day 1, like most of you are"
evilbutterfly87: things like that....makes you sound bad
Tps7910: But thats how i feel
Tps7910: I dont neccesarily need to get a wolf on day 1
Tps7910: It would be nice
Tps7910: But it is not my main goal
flypie743: what is your main goal?
Tps7910: My main goal is for us to win
flypie743: and you can win
flypie743: by getting rid of the wolves
flypie743: the sooner the better
flypie743: the less humans dead the better, so the goal is to lynch a wolf
Tps7910: That is true
Tps7910: But what if you go of a hunch
Legat0bluesummrs: the thing is
Tps7910: And some evidnce points a fairly active player, that is decenty
Tps7910: and turns out that he is human
Tps7910: Not only do we lynch a human, we lynch a usefull one
Legat0bluesummrs: flypie, what makes you think flux, or anyone else we lynch is human for sure?
flypie743: eh?
evilbutterfly87: lupin, we're not debating flux's humanity
flypie743: when did I say flux was human
Legat0bluesummrs: neither am I
evilbutterfly87: we're debating that tps doesnt care if he lynches a human
Legat0bluesummrs: well obviously nobody cares day one
Legat0bluesummrs: considering it happens 9 out of 10 of the time
evilbutterfly87: no, see, thats terrible thinking
Tps7910: As long as he or she is innactive
Tps7910: There not helping
lightdarkness42 has entered the room.
Tps7910: only hurting
lightdarkness42: hi
Tps7910: they wont slip-up
flypie743: hi LD
Legat0bluesummrs: fact is, we're not going to get a wolf unless we're damn lucky
Tps7910: Or
Tps7910: Someone slips up
Tps7910: only active can slip up
Tps7910: so, we want to get rid of all innactive
evilbutterfly87: Kilga slipped up last game
evilbutterfly87: he's inactive
evilbutterfly87: people talked to him on AIM
evilbutterfly87: he couldnt stay concealed
evilbutterfly87: otherwise, you're pretty much right
Tps7910: This gives us a chance to collect seer info, evidnce, and with more active people around, more conversation and a chnac for someone to slip up, if the person is innactive, they cant slip up
evilbutterfly87: yes they can, but it's harder
Tps7910: Yea, so lets make it easier
evilbutterfly87: but still, we're not aiming for a human
flypie743: I agree with eb
Legat0bluesummrs: exactly
Legat0bluesummrs: we're not aiming for a human
Legat0bluesummrs: because we dont know
Tps7910: Yes, I know, but we really dont hav e agood shot at getting a wolf
Tps7910: So, I would rather lose a bad human instead of a helpfull one
Tps7910: Unless I have complete evidnce of wolfiness
Tps7910: THeres no point in risking a helpfull human
Tps7910: or person
flypie743: yeah, but still. we aren't aiming for a human
flypie743: we are aiming for a wolf
evilbutterfly87: indeed
flypie743: but on day 1 its kind of hard
evilbutterfly87: TPS's post made it seem otherwise

flux_ · 03-27-2005, 05:01 PM

I've been quiet in almost every game I've ever played; I tend to see what everone else says, and make my votes based on that. I'm trying to be more active here since FFR games are more conversation oriented, but I really have nothing to say. I've never played here so I can't look at past experiences and talk about how people aren't acting like they usually are or anything.

My vote for blah wasn't based on anything real, but seeing as how this is the first round and no one has made any real accusations, and little has been said other than speculating who could have killed Tass (which it seems the result came out 'anyone') I had little to make my vote on.

HansSky · 03-27-2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Tps7910: This gives us a chance to collect seer info, evidnce, and with more active people around, more conversation and a chnac for someone to slip up, if the person is innactive, they cant slip up

Whoops!
We lynched the seer.
Whoops!
We lynched the guardian.
Whoops!
We wasted a kill on someone because they were inactive.

I've expressed my views on this before, and they remain the same.

QreepyBORIS · 03-27-2005, 05:15 PM

We need the other SEVENTY THOUSAND people who are inactive to post in this before the day closes, or else we are not doing too much good conversing without them.

Tps222 · 03-27-2005, 05:16 PM

Your taking things to the extreme Hans. It's not wasting a kill, would you rather kill an active helpfull person, and leave a bunch of innactive people around, I wouldn't. This is just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it, it's just an idea.

JurseyRider734 · 03-27-2005, 05:29 PM

First of all, sorry about being so inactive. I went out riding earlier, came home, showered, then went right out again.

I have to agree with Lupin, though. He said to vote of the weakest link. If they aren't going to make a good contribution to the game by talking at all, then they most likely aren't going to help in the future. Chances are, they could be a wolf, and are trying to fly under the radar so that no one will suspect them. I know that i haven't been contributing that much, but see the reason above ^. I'll be able to do a lot for the next week considering I don't have to go to school. The only one that's standing out is TPS, but that is to be expected considering he acts stupid every game. It would kind of help if more people were talking so that we could have more opinions, and maybe something to go off of.

I'm not going to vote at the moment because I haven't seen enough input from everyone.

HansSky · 03-27-2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tps222

Your taking things to the extreme Hans. It's not wasting a kill, would you rather kill an active helpfull person, and leave a bunch of innactive people around, I wouldn't. This is just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it, it's just an idea.

If you vote for someone who you think is a WOLF, you have a better chance of lynching a WOLF. If you vote for someone who you think is HUMAN, regardless of activity, you have a better chance of lynching a HUMAN.

And now to recap the goal of the game:

To lynch all of the WOLVES.

Tps222 · 03-27-2005, 05:50 PM

Jurs, me and Lupin said the SAME EXACT THING. SAME IDEA. How am I acting stupid, it's an idea that could work.

Tps7910: If tass brought it up, or blah
Legat0bluesummrs: everyone has to participate
Tps7910: We would hav been using it games ago
Legat0bluesummrs: hah yeah

Lupin_the_3rd · 03-27-2005, 05:51 PM

Quote:

If you vote for someone who you think is a WOLF, you have a better chance of lynching a WOLF. If you vote for someone who you think is HUMAN, regardless of activity, you have a better chance of lynching a HUMAN.

Unfortunately in the past games, it hasn't worked out so easily day one. Things that "look" suspicious or "sound" wolfish are often performed by humans. Our definition of "wolfish behaviour" is hardly accurate. Besides the luck you had with TPS one game, how many times have you heard something "wolfish" coming from an actual wolf? Not often, and especially not on day one. Day one is a free day for the wolves. We run around with our heads cut off and lynch each other until we become organized. The wolves are the calm and collected ones. They are the ones who are watching us argue our points back and forth without drawing too much attention to themself. Unfortunately, we have the preconceived notion that suspicious activity stems from wolves. It's time we erase those stereotypes.

Oh, and we don't know flux is a wolf or a human, so assuming that lynching him is lynching a human is overlooking the fact that there's a 21% chance he's a wolf. However, in no way is flux condemned. He's merely a target to provide a warning to other inactives.

**stretchypanda** · 03-27-2005, 05:53 PM

I recall a game where a wolf was lynched night one. OHWAIT, THAT WAS TPS.

Hans is completely right. I did not mean in any way that I feel flux is human or wolf. I meant that Tps's strategy of seeking out useless humans rather than wolves is STUPID, be it day one or day six.

Kefit · 03-27-2005, 06:03 PM

What the hell is wrong with you guys.

Lynching an inactive player on the pretense that you are getting rid of someone who isn't an assest is bullshit. We have gone over this before in past games. It is NOT a good strategy.

Yet people are trying to push it AGAIN. From what I have seen, specifically Tps and Lupin, with a bit of defense from eb.

Right now Lupin gets my vote, due to the amount of bullshit in his last post combined with his continued push to lynch Flux (by the way, humans usually don't have a good reason to strongly push for a specfic lynch day one, whereas a wolf, who knows who all the humans and wolves are, does). We should ignore wolfish things he says? So we should ignore everything which allows the humans to win this game? The only people that such a strategy helps is the wolves.

I still think that the reasoning I used in my early post is mostly correct, so I'll review it combined with this later. For now, Disgaea calls.

nforcer06164 · 03-27-2005, 06:05 PM

Okay, guys, riding on TPS is just going to make him say something more stupid. Remember last game; he talked about lynching alain, and he worded it wrong. It got him lynched. He says stupid stuff he doesn't mean to say every game, and it gets him killed. I'm not saying he isn't a wolf, but this is expected of him.

I'm particularly looking at flux_ right now. He's only posted twice, once to throw in a vote, once to explain himself, to save himself from being killed. He's been staying out of the way WAY too much for Day 1. I think forcing a second vote on flux_ will make him talk a little more.

Now, about alain. I talked to him about this privately, because I was wondering why he had not been posting, because he had obviously been available. The reason is, eb, Kefit, AND blah have all brought his name up as a potential wolf that could've killed Tass. This strategy, as well as this finger-pointing, has pissed him off to the point where he does not want to play this game anymore, at least for now. He got fed up after blah reiterated what had already been plainly stated. I'm going to get the blame if you guys spam him with messages now, so just give him his space to let him cool off.

flypie743 · 03-27-2005, 06:10 PM

Why does he care if they bought up his name? No one ever voted for him for it. The two votes for him are based off of randomness and inactivity. And LD always ends up changing his vote and I bet Stretchy will change her vote when an explanation comes from Alain, or someone who has talked to him. =/

nforcer06164 · 03-27-2005, 06:14 PM

I already told you why he cared. He didn't like a finger being pointed at him, if only casually, three different times. Maybe he overreacted, but that is what he said, plain and simple.

Okay a bunch of posts went in before mine, so I will clarify something I meant to say about flux_. I was getting a bad vibe from him after his second post, which looked like a little cry just thrown in to say, "I'm new, I'm innocent, there's no reason to look at me." The fact that he can't look back and see how people act is bull. There are plenty of games he could look back on to at least get an idea of behavior and get even a loose idea of how people act when they have certain roles. He has no excuse for saying (or, more accurately, implying) that he should be given a little room for not playing here before.

Lupin_the_3rd · 03-27-2005, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Right now Lupin gets my vote, due to the amount of bullshit in his last post combined with his continued push to lynch Flux

Ok first off, I'd like to point out that I have no intention to lynch Flux, and that is solely a last resort if we do not gather any evidence. I have not, and I will refuse to put a vote on flux if he becomes more active. I am still looking for evidence, and the controversy that TPS and I have started has been a great way to get conversations and opinions flowing.

Secondly, you have failed to tell us why you think I'm spewing bullshit. Yes, finding wolves through suspicious behaviour works to an extent in jTWG, but come on...wolves don't come out and say incriminating things day one in a game of this calibur. The majority of "wolfish" behaviour will be coming from confused and scattered humans- has this not been observed in the past? I believe that there very well could be a wolf on your side, or my side of the argument- maybe even both. But the thing is that wolves have no need to really expose themselves this early on. There's no benefit for them to be in the spotlight. This being said, why is my speculation that wolves act normally so invalid?

Lastly, I realize my logic on day one wolfings are flawed. I didn't realize there were so many in the earlier games. Then again, wolves learn from their mistakes.

flypie743 · 03-27-2005, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

I already told you why he cared. He didn't like a finger being pointed at him, if only casually, three different times. Maybe he overreacted, but that is what he said, plain and simple.

Um, isn't the point of the game to point fingers at people? People have pointed fingers at him before and he has never acted like this.

JurseyRider734 · 03-27-2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tps222

Jurs, me and Lupin said the SAME EXACT THING. SAME IDEA. How am I acting stupid, it's an idea that could work.

Tps7910: If tass brought it up, or blah
Legat0bluesummrs: everyone has to participate
Tps7910: We would hav been using it games ago
Legat0bluesummrs: hah yeah

I meant, the reason you're making yourself suspicious is because the way you word it makes you look stupid. That's why you're standing out. You get into arguements over stuff (see:eb) and it makes you look like an idiot.

flypie743 · 03-27-2005, 06:25 PM

Oh, and nforcer, I am not really saying this stuff to you...like why he isn't posting, etc. I'm just putting it out in the open because I know you are only repeating what he said :P

**stretchypanda** · 03-27-2005, 06:40 PM

I'm definitely going to be the first person to tell you not to underestimate the newbs (and possibly the best example of why you shouldn't -- not to be cocky, olol), but I want to give flux_ the benefit of the doubt for now. If there had been opposition to me joining a game, I'd be very hesitant to say anything, too. I think we have a much better chance of analyzing those among us who have played on this forum before (which is everyone except flux_). If flux is a wolf and we take out his two partners, he will be easy to get.

As for Alain, I do plan on changing my vote. Not just yet, as nothing has really come along...

I'm going to pull a Tass and ask to be seered. Please.

03-27-2005, 04:31 PM	#61
evilbutterfly FFR Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Small town, TN Age: 37 Posts: 5,784	This is another case of "TPS isn't too great at saying what he means and therefore comes off very badly." He doesn't mean he's aiming for humans, he just worded it badly or something. In the chat: evilbutterfly87: it's not so much that you're aiming for a human evilbutterfly87: it's that you're aiming for useless people Tps7910: Yes See, he's not aiming for a human, he's aiming for useless people and hoping they're a wolf. He just didn't word it so well. __________________ So I've gone completely slack-ass and haven't done any work on creating games. =( In less-depressing news, I got a job for an online business (which sells non-electronic games, of all things!) which has taught me a lot about marketing online and all that jazz. So now I'm on Twitter @NoahWright. And I write the blog for their website. Plus I do cool programming in-house that you'll never see. =O

03-27-2005, 05:01 PM	#63
flux_ FFR Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 33	I've been quiet in almost every game I've ever played; I tend to see what everone else says, and make my votes based on that. I'm trying to be more active here since FFR games are more conversation oriented, but I really have nothing to say. I've never played here so I can't look at past experiences and talk about how people aren't acting like they usually are or anything. My vote for blah wasn't based on anything real, but seeing as how this is the first round and no one has made any real accusations, and little has been said other than speculating who could have killed Tass (which it seems the result came out 'anyone') I had little to make my vote on. __________________

03-27-2005, 05:15 PM	#65
QreepyBORIS FFR Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: It is a mystery. Age: 33 Posts: 7,454	We need the other SEVENTY THOUSAND people who are inactive to post in this before the day closes, or else we are not doing too much good conversing without them. __________________ Signature subject to change. THE ZERRRRRG.

03-27-2005, 06:10 PM	#74
flypie743 FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: fairyland Posts: 3,210	Why does he care if they bought up his name? No one ever voted for him for it. The two votes for him are based off of randomness and inactivity. And LD always ends up changing his vote and I bet Stretchy will change her vote when an explanation comes from Alain, or someone who has talked to him. =/ __________________ IF YOU ARE THE BOMB YOU WILL CLICK THIS and if you dont, you suck.

03-27-2005, 06:25 PM	#79
flypie743 FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: fairyland Posts: 3,210	Oh, and nforcer, I am not really saying this stuff to you...like why he isn't posting, etc. I'm just putting it out in the open because I know you are only repeating what he said :P __________________ IF YOU ARE THE BOMB YOU WILL CLICK THIS and if you dont, you suck.

03-27-2005, 04:40 PM	#62
Tps222 FFR Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Age: 33 Posts: 6,167	evilbutterfly87: and man, you shouldn't aim for killing a human Tps7910: Were going too Tps7910: Most likely evilbutterfly87: no Tps7910: Statistics show evilbutterfly87: we've killed wolves on day 1 plenty of times evilbutterfly87: stats mean crap in TWG Tps7910: Well, I'm sticking with my idea unless I see some incrimnating evidnce Tps7910: My vote is subject to change, but there are more pros then cons in the strategy Tps7910: We dont need to get a wolf on day 1 Tps7910: It would be better to scarifice a innactive human evilbutterfly87: it's not so much that you're aiming for a human evilbutterfly87: it's that you're aiming for useless people Tps7910: Yes evilbutterfly87: and hoping that you get lucky, maybe Tps7910: If a wolf is active Tps7910: He has a chance to slip up Tps7910: Exactly evilbutterfly87: you just word it badly Tps7910: The only thing that can go wrong is if the innactive person is a sp role evilbutterfly87: in your post, you basically say "i dont wanna kill wolves, i wanna kill inactives" Tps7910: Well, are people that dumb to honestly think I meant that Tps7910: What wolf would say that Tps7910: Too obvious evilbutterfly87: but still evilbutterfly87: it makes you come off as stupid evilbutterfly87: what you're saying isnt so bad evilbutterfly87: it's just how you say it Tps7910: Well, how can I fix it flypie743: lol evilbutterfly87: idunno man, you just have trouble communicating your ideas Tps7910: Did my last post help at all evilbutterfly87: well your new idea in that post, it wasnt very clear Tps7910: How so evilbutterfly87: you have alright ideas, you just gotta be clear and careful with what you so Tps7910: Ok evilbutterfly87: "I'm not going for a wolf on day 1, like most of you are" evilbutterfly87: things like that....makes you sound bad Tps7910: But thats how i feel Tps7910: I dont neccesarily need to get a wolf on day 1 Tps7910: It would be nice Tps7910: But it is not my main goal flypie743: what is your main goal? Tps7910: My main goal is for us to win flypie743: and you can win flypie743: by getting rid of the wolves flypie743: the sooner the better flypie743: the less humans dead the better, so the goal is to lynch a wolf Tps7910: That is true Tps7910: But what if you go of a hunch Legat0bluesummrs: the thing is Tps7910: And some evidnce points a fairly active player, that is decenty Tps7910: and turns out that he is human Tps7910: Not only do we lynch a human, we lynch a usefull one Legat0bluesummrs: flypie, what makes you think flux, or anyone else we lynch is human for sure? flypie743: eh? evilbutterfly87: lupin, we're not debating flux's humanity flypie743: when did I say flux was human Legat0bluesummrs: neither am I evilbutterfly87: we're debating that tps doesnt care if he lynches a human Legat0bluesummrs: well obviously nobody cares day one Legat0bluesummrs: considering it happens 9 out of 10 of the time evilbutterfly87: no, see, thats terrible thinking Tps7910: As long as he or she is innactive Tps7910: There not helping lightdarkness42 has entered the room. Tps7910: only hurting lightdarkness42: hi Tps7910: they wont slip-up flypie743: hi LD Legat0bluesummrs: fact is, we're not going to get a wolf unless we're damn lucky Tps7910: Or Tps7910: Someone slips up Tps7910: only active can slip up Tps7910: so, we want to get rid of all innactive evilbutterfly87: Kilga slipped up last game evilbutterfly87: he's inactive evilbutterfly87: people talked to him on AIM evilbutterfly87: he couldnt stay concealed evilbutterfly87: otherwise, you're pretty much right Tps7910: This gives us a chance to collect seer info, evidnce, and with more active people around, more conversation and a chnac for someone to slip up, if the person is innactive, they cant slip up evilbutterfly87: yes they can, but it's harder Tps7910: Yea, so lets make it easier evilbutterfly87: but still, we're not aiming for a human flypie743: I agree with eb Legat0bluesummrs: exactly Legat0bluesummrs: we're not aiming for a human Legat0bluesummrs: because we dont know Tps7910: Yes, I know, but we really dont hav e agood shot at getting a wolf Tps7910: So, I would rather lose a bad human instead of a helpfull one Tps7910: Unless I have complete evidnce of wolfiness Tps7910: THeres no point in risking a helpfull human Tps7910: or person flypie743: yeah, but still. we aren't aiming for a human flypie743: we are aiming for a wolf evilbutterfly87: indeed flypie743: but on day 1 its kind of hard evilbutterfly87: TPS's post made it seem otherwise

03-27-2005, 05:16 PM	#66
Tps222 FFR Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Age: 33 Posts: 6,167	Your taking things to the extreme Hans. It's not wasting a kill, would you rather kill an active helpfull person, and leave a bunch of innactive people around, I wouldn't. This is just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it, it's just an idea.

03-27-2005, 05:50 PM	#69
Tps222 FFR Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Age: 33 Posts: 6,167	Jurs, me and Lupin said the SAME EXACT THING. SAME IDEA. How am I acting stupid, it's an idea that could work. Tps7910: If tass brought it up, or blah Legat0bluesummrs: everyone has to participate Tps7910: We would hav been using it games ago Legat0bluesummrs: hah yeah

03-27-2005, 05:53 PM	#71
stretchypanda shock me shock me Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Texas Age: 39 Posts: 4,123	I recall a game where a wolf was lynched night one. OHWAIT, THAT WAS TPS. Hans is completely right. I did not mean in any way that I feel flux is human or wolf. I meant that Tps's strategy of seeking out useless humans rather than wolves is STUPID, be it day one or day six.

03-27-2005, 06:03 PM	#72
Kefit FFR Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,517	What the hell is wrong with you guys. Lynching an inactive player on the pretense that you are getting rid of someone who isn't an assest is bullshit. We have gone over this before in past games. It is NOT a good strategy. Yet people are trying to push it AGAIN. From what I have seen, specifically Tps and Lupin, with a bit of defense from eb. Right now Lupin gets my vote, due to the amount of bullshit in his last post combined with his continued push to lynch Flux (by the way, humans usually don't have a good reason to strongly push for a specfic lynch day one, whereas a wolf, who knows who all the humans and wolves are, does). We should ignore wolfish things he says? So we should ignore everything which allows the humans to win this game? The only people that such a strategy helps is the wolves. I still think that the reasoning I used in my early post is mostly correct, so I'll review it combined with this later. For now, Disgaea calls.

03-27-2005, 06:40 PM	#80
stretchypanda shock me shock me Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Texas Age: 39 Posts: 4,123	I'm definitely going to be the first person to tell you not to underestimate the newbs (and possibly the best example of why you shouldn't -- not to be cocky, olol), but I want to give flux_ the benefit of the doubt for now. If there had been opposition to me joining a game, I'd be very hesitant to say anything, too. I think we have a much better chance of analyzing those among us who have played on this forum before (which is everyone except flux_). If flux is a wolf and we take out his two partners, he will be easy to get. As for Alain, I do plan on changing my vote. Not just yet, as nothing has really come along... I'm going to pull a Tass and ask to be seered. Please.

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