Queue/Batch Discussion Thread

[who_cares973]

only people on the list that don't have all that much or not at all as far as how files are judged, what's expected of the files, and how patterns translate from sm to ffr. Those two people being kory and gdude. That's not to say they would be bad judges because I'm damn sure they'd do a good job

[Korygon]

I really meant to put more files in the game, I swear I did. I just never got around to it.


I will have a few in game after this next batch, so that will be my proof of my FFR-ness I guess?

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Korygon

;_______;



I have a file in the game




I do agree though. FFR files have to be set up differently than SM files, due to the lack of holds and mines, as well as the lack of general options (no distant mode >=|)
Debit, who do you disagree with? We probably should get all of this out now so we can figure out who should and shouldn't judge.

I'm having issues with the whole team concept in general - it's a bit too much of a change from the older system (I guess I'm slightly adverse to change).

My disagreements (and please, no one take offense to this ) with the judging panel are NSane, and (only slight disagreement here) G-Dude.

Now, let me start with G-Dude. He's a fantastic stepper. I give the kid a ton of credit, because his files have been fun to me, time and time again. But, he's even said it himself - he's not even sure how to distinguish from judging between an FFR file and an SM one. Can he judge? Absolutely. I've seen his work from the Xoon/LCP packs, his quality control for SM packs is great. But, will he judge FFR files properly? Only time will tell.

NSane, on the other hand - I'm not sure if he's actually ready for judging files. He's made quite a few files, but none of them have made it into FFR itself, and if I remember correctly, not too many of them received great marks either. This isn't to say that he couldn't have improved from the time the site was down or that he hasn't practiced, but we actually don't know that yet.

And before I go on and post about two people, I'll post about myself too - I haven't made that many files, I'm well aware of this. But a good deal of stepartists have seen that small amount of files that I've made and (from what I've heard) they approve of them. I'm capable of judging files from an SM and FFR perspective (I'm a judge on KBO, and I judge FFR files from our small little community over at Dragons Fury), which means there's a certain amount of flexibility.

Now, before I go on - there's something I want to address:

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

Something that I thought was working great for us on DF (just an opinion). There was myself, Halogen, and WC judging files. Now we were a bit more relaxed over there on some things but what was good about this team was you had WC who looked at the files from all technical aspects, then Halogen looked for technical errors but also looked at fun factor, I looked more at the fun/replayability factors, so I was kinda like the person looking at it more from a players point of view rather than just how "perfect" the file was made. (and I would reject for major mistakes of course)

This post holds EXTREME relevance to me. There's a fine balance between finding objective/subjective errors and picking out files that flow, and then finding charts that actually fill a chart that has fun factor. You guys need to listen to the members of the community who are actually playing the game. Judges need to also be able to distinguish charts to have both a subjective accuracy mixed with a fun factor. People need to relax on the purely technical aspects of a file and focus on more of the fundamentals that most FFR files have. Yes, they have a decent amount of layering; yes, they have some pitch relevancy, but not every file has it - it should stay this way. Trying to force feed people SM-style files is going to upset the FFR community who plays because they despise the charts having nothing but the technical aspect.

Bring FFR back to what it used be because that's what everyone cared for and loved - don't try to just rush a ton of new files with a new style and hope that the users will like. This isn't your community to change. Hold true to the style.

[psychoangel691]

It shouldn't matter how many files someone has in FFR what should matter is do they have basic knowledge on technical aspects of charts and can they look at it for more than just the technical aspect. I've even argued this issue on kbo before with stargroup. If everyone on the team is going to be super omgwtf technical the charts are going to lose that fun factor. There should be at least one person on the team that is basically just a player of ffr. Be honest how many of you actually play FFR regularly? If you aren't going to be playing the charts, why should you be judging them? What matters are the people that ARE going to be playing them. Which is why there should be at least one person that looks at it from the gamer point of view and not just well the PR is off, the layering is a little inconsistent (not major inconsistencies because that would be an issue) etc.

I just see it like the community kinda got ignored for a good chunk of before the site went down. Now that it's being reborn again the community should be listened to.

[who_cares973]

I disagree I'll go ahead and say why when I get on my laptop

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by who_cares973

I disagree I'll go ahead and say why when I get on my laptop

None of the actual die-hard players care about the technical aspect of the charts, only the stepartists who send them will have any slight care to it, and those are the people you can try to help "improve" their skill.

[who_cares973]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

It shouldn't matter how many files someone has in FFR what should matter is do they have basic knowledge on technical aspects of charts and can they look at it for more than just the technical aspect. I've even argued this issue on kbo before with stargroup. If everyone on the team is going to be super omgwtf technical the charts are going to lose that fun factor. There should be at least one person on the team that is basically just a player of ffr. Be honest how many of you actually play FFR regularly? If you aren't going to be playing the charts, why should you be judging them? What matters are the people that ARE going to be playing them. Which is why there should be at least one person that looks at it from the gamer point of view and not just well the PR is off, the layering is a little inconsistent (not major inconsistencies because that would be an issue) etc.

I just see it like the community kinda got ignored for a good chunk of before the site went down. Now that it's being reborn again the community should be listened to.

having files in the game kinda shows that people have basic knowledge on technical aspects of charts as well as a basic understanding of stepping altogether. so having songs in game does matter to a certain degree. not everyone on the team is going to be superomgwtf technical and for as long as ive been here none of the judges have ever been superomgwtf technical when it comes to judging. this doesnt even just go for ffr files. the only pack ive ever seen that has had their standards so high was torrents super elitist packs and the first mystery pack. as for judges not playing the game im sure pretty much every judge that we have listed has played the game enough since it came back lol and will continue to do so. having a player be a "judge" isnt all that great of an idea because they really wouldnt contribute anything really not to mention that you would need at least 3 players to judge the difficulties. 1 player for easy files, 1 player for average difficulty files, and 1 player for hard files. thats an additional 3 judges per group that would be added for no real reason. if you want the players to be apart of the judging process then we might as well release the batches publicly and have the people decide what files stay and what files go just like the step wars you and aj host on dragonsfury.

tldr: no need to add more people than we already have especially when their contributions would be very minimal

[psychoangel691]

I have no files in game yet I can look at a file and tell you if it's not PRd correctly, I could tell you if there's missrhythms, I could tell you if there's layering inconsistencies, I could tell you if sync is off, etc. You guys are making it out that someone can only be a good judge if they've made a bunch of files which is completely untrue. Do I point all these out of DF no because I'm the fun factor judge and unless something is way off I don't really worry about it I let you do the technical part and AJ's the middle man so it's being looked at from different aspects. Which imo is how it should be.

[who_cares973]

probably shouldn't of said files in game and should've said stepped files. which you've done and you've done it with the help of knowledgeable stepartist.

[Korygon]

Just to establish because I feel like there MIGHT be confusion:

All these teams would do is divide up the work. If there are 80 files in the batch and 4 teams of 3, each team would take 20 of those files and judge them, thus creating less overall work and allowing faster judging times.

Debit I see you don't like change, and this is just a small change. Batches will still be judged the same way, just in smaller batches in groups. I think we should try this out. If it doesn't end up working out, we can always go back to the way it was.

[who_cares973]

kory is the light in the fog :']

[Korygon]

ILU too Carlos *bro hug*

[psychoangel691]

I was referring to files in FFR. Because that seems to be what people are basing things on here. That really shouldn't matter. That's why i said if someone has general knowledge on the technical aspects (which can come from various ways). Do I make perfect charts yet? No and I damn well know it. But hell I know I have the potential to if I actually stopped letting myself get so caught up in being perfect with all the damn technicalities (this is why I never finish charts because I get mindblocked trying to make everything perfect). The final hour was my 3rd chart ever. Are there some issues with it? yea, do I know what they are? yup Do I care? nope because people enjoy the chart and find it fun so why bother messing with something people like?

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by who_cares973

having files in the game kinda shows that people have basic knowledge on technical aspects of charts as well as a basic understanding of stepping altogether. so having songs in game does matter to a certain degree. not everyone on the team is going to be superomgwtf technical and for as long as ive been here none of the judges have ever been superomgwtf technical when it comes to judging. this doesnt even just go for ffr files. the only pack ive ever seen that has had their standards so high was torrents super elitist packs and the first mystery pack. as for judges not playing the game im sure pretty much every judge that we have listed has played the game enough since it came back lol and will continue to do so. having a player be a "judge" isnt all that great of an idea because they really wouldnt contribute anything really not to mention that you would need at least 3 players to judge the difficulties. 1 player for easy files, 1 player for average difficulty files, and 1 player for hard files. thats an additional 3 judges per group that would be added for no real reason. if you want the players to be apart of the judging process then we might as well release the batches publicly and have the people decide what files stay and what files go just like the step wars you and aj host on dragonsfury.

tldr: no need to add more people than we already have especially when their contributions would be very minimal

Wow, really? None of the judges have been technical? I'm sorry but that's a load of crap considering you all have an elitist group name for yourselves for a majority of you guys. You can sit there and say it has nothing to do with the argument, but I'll mention that the LCP/DCP packs were never open for submissions and people were chosen by who? Other steppers who are extremely well-known ("elitist" steppers).

More like you drop a crap-ton of the members who are going to judge the same way, and go back to FFR's old judging where it was only three to five people. This team stuff is really stupid because it's going to make batches a crap-ton longer. I'd much rather just go back to seeing bluguerilla, bmah, and dore as judges. Why? Because they all clearly have different styles and actually can offer decent criticisms on both sides of the spectrum, technical and fun factor. And an even better thing to mention is the attitudes that certain people have - you're going to be dealing with a ton of people who don't have the experience and don't exactly know how to step very well, and I know the sarcastic attitudes that these people have. Too many of you guys are too brash and don't exactly understand that simple concepts to follow for you guys will be extremely complicated and confusing to others.

Obviously, none of these judges are going to be available - dore and blu have disappeared off the face of the earth and bmah said that he might not have enough time to do anything. I'd totally want to see bmah as a judge because he was a VERY active FFR player who has actually taken the time to play just about every chart that the game had. Same goes with Silvuh.

I have no problems with you guys, but looking at this list more and more, I start to see people who are going to try and manipulate this game and the files more and more like how typical Stepmania files are stepped - this is not where it belongs.

EDIT: @ Kory - it's too drastic of a change to be trying while FFR is still in the stages of revival. In the future, maybe. Now? No way.

[Korygon]

How is this going to make batches longer? It's not like other teams cant step in and start judging stuff for other teams if they take too long. I'm also not seeing how it's that big of a change. The only real change is in the actual judges, and thats because half the judges disappeared.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by who_cares973

probably shouldn't of said files in game and should've said stepped files. which you've done and you've done it with the help of knowledgeable stepartist.

I should probably also add that yea I've sat down and learned a lot from a lot of different stepartists, you, AJ, Byron even bmah and I have chatted a little about it I think there were a few others too but I can't remember off the top of my head. Yet if I were to post in this thread that I wanted to judge I wouldn't have even been noticed because I'm not an "elite" (for lack of a better word). I'm just as knowledgeable because I've learned from so many. But that wouldn't matter.

Hell the 1st post I made in this thread went completely ignored by everyone.

[TC_Halogen]

entirely @ Kory

I didn't get your post because I was still typing mine.

Splitting batches is really unnecessary and isn't a great move because you're giving different groups of judges different kinds (potentially, the wrong kind) of thing to judge. If you give a group of people who judge files off of their technicality a ton of files with funky patterns and no relevance but has a fairly fun chart to it, they might pass it off as crap. Similarly, you can have a very technically accurate file being passed off as unfun in a group of people who are trying to pick fun files.

No matter which way you look at it, the process is flawed. Splitting the batch will add unnecessary time deciding who's judging what, plus you have to wait for a ton of judges to finish regardless. There's really no reason to judge like this - I seriously think you should just pick 4 or 5 judges and judge back to how FFR used to until you can perfect this system.

[Patashu]

I can see the argument for speeding the batches up, assuming each team is balanced so that they'll judge, overall, from roughly the same set of angles. Maybe 'controversially' rated ones could be thrown into a second pass for the other judges to look at.

[Korygon]

That's why I split the groups up how I did. Go look at them again.

Each group has a technical judge, one who just cares about fun factor, and one who's more of an all-around type of judge. Thats the whole point. If you know what your doing, your judgements of a file should be very similar. Thats why we can split it up, because no use getting 40 people to say the same thing on a file when 3 works just fine

edit: exactly what patashu said

[bmah]

I'd be happy to do something only if I'm dealing with a smaller batch...doing 135 files for one batch (the June 2009 batch) just killed my enthusiasm.

Also, to answer the question on whether the previous batch should be re-judged, I'd say yes. Blu, dore, and I were only halfway done through it.