The Point of education

[blahblah18]

just because it was set up so nicely, I ahve to quote 1984... or at least paraphrase since i left my copy at school....

There are three classes, the ruling class, the middle class, and the lower class... The ruling class maintain power at any cost , but primarily by bribing the middle class into thinking they can ascend into the ruling class... The middle class preaches justice,fariness, and equality to get the lower class on their side but their goal is merely to overthrow the ruling class and become the ruling class themselves... The lower class, will inevitably remain the lower class.

[The_Q]

Originally Posted by blahblah18

There are three classes, the ruling class, the middle class, and the lower class... The ruling class maintain power at any cost , but primarily by bribing the middle class into thinking they can ascend into the ruling class... The middle class preaches justice,fariness, and equality to get the lower class on their side but their goal is merely to overthrow the ruling class and become the ruling class themselves... The lower class, will inevitably remain the lower class.

QFT

That's the way the world works. Get used to it.

Q

[whorlichan]

Originally Posted by psychic25

A big part of high school is the social stuff- true. However, that social stuff is actually very important (from what I've noticed, at least). When you get a job later in life, there is a need for social skills of some sort. Every job requires some sort of interaction- with your boss, with your coworkers, etc. School is good training for this, although I do agree that sometimes the social stuff does get in the way of learning- stress over something like clothes can cause you to forget to do that book report or huge project.

Yes and no. I went through most of high school with a very small group of friends--but I didn't meet them until just before freshman year ended. For most of that year (which was traumatic for other reasons as well, mostly because I went from a 300-person private school to a 3500-person public school) I was a total loner. I ate alone, sat alone, read alone, and knew NO ONE in my classes...which was bad as I tend to skip school a lot. Still, I managed to get a job just fine and can handle myself well around people, even though I don't like most of humanity.

Originally Posted by psychic25

I do enjoy learning- I think it's pretty cool to find out why something happens a certain way, or to learn how to say new things in a different language...Everybody likes learning, but not everybody likes what they "have" to learn.

True, and yet still not quite there. You may not like history, but like Santayana said, those who forget it are doomed to repeat it. If we don't know what went on in the past, what goes on now will not make much sense. I don't like learning math, and I suck at it terribly, but I know that it will come in handy for my other classes--physics and organic chemistry and genetics--EVEN THOUGH I will not actually use the mathematics part once I'm out of college.

Originally Posted by psychic25

Also, I believe that grades are crap. Grades exist to set standards for learning, right? Well, a lot of people that get good grades don't have to learn anything- a lot in school is memorization...I'm saying that all you have to do to get a high grade in the class is memorize the things for one chapter, remember them until the final, and then forget them forever. You don't need to have any idea of what they mean, you just need to "know" them.

Again, not completely true. My classes this semester seemed that way on the surface--here's the chapters, memorize them and spit out the information and you'll be fine. But when we got to the actual tests, the teachers had manipulated the stuff we learned by rote. They turned it inside out and backwards, or made you work from a different direction than the examples in the book, or even asked a question about something you had memorized, but in such a fashion that it was not immediately obvious. You actually had to look and think about everything before you just filled in a blank or bubbled on a scantron.

And here's the rub--my lab partner, who's very very good at book-learning and memorizations--she did terribly in these classes, which she is not used to because she got straight A's on everything else she's ever done because it WAS just memorizations. I got straight A's this semester and I actually learned a lot.

[Tasselfoot]

Ybom... the reason Qs analysis is so interesting to you is because his reference point is Economics. everything he argues is based around monetary gain and productivity, and through those to him making money through being as inactive as possible.

and, to further Whorli's point to psychic... i'm going to go out on a limb and venture you aren't in college yet. when you get to college and start taking courses for your major, you will realize that everything you learn is relevent and needed for working with the next course. like in math... if you don't know how to take integrals (calc 1), you will have a very challenging time with more advanced courses (calc 2, 3, etc)

ps - hehe... you said rub hun. <3

[Ybom]

I respect how y'all feel. I must say though that 1984 was a fictional piece of work, although most people seemingly take it as a real life history book sometimes. I'm not even coming remotely coming to that setting anyways.

As for why I think Q's posts are interesting, he is helping me easily see the monetary gain side of life, and I really respect how he takes the time to really get in depth as to how he feels. It makes sense, does it not?

As for how the world works, I genuinely believe that the world does not have to rely on money to get along.

I would like to know if you, Q, could give any type of prediction, no matter how far fetched it is, as to what would happen if 95% of the world population wasn't focused on the short term benefits of profit so much as the long term benefits of technological gain. Can you do me a favor and try honestly to do a paragraph or two? Essentially this is for S&G's...nothing more nothing less...

[torres1287]

This is great to sit back and read everyone's views on the education system. The fixing part of it is where I come in at. Here where I live, I am a junior school board member. Meaning, I get to listen to everyone talk and complain about the school system and then mold it to where everyone is happy...and finally...relay this to the school board and make changes. Just this past meeting, we talked about supplying more classes and so forth. Keep talking...I'm really enjoying this thread.

I love school! I take what many people would call "the harder classes". I hate being forced to learn and I don't do it to learn...I do it to keep myself busy. I am extremely intelligent in the things I know a lot about...and this is why I MUST take harder classes. Where I am, they focus mainly on those who are lagging behind and not on those who are well beyond their classmates. I don't want to make the image saying I'm better than everyone else...that's not my goal. I'm just saying that there's quite a few people who share the same problem of not being challenged enough.

[QreepyBORIS]

The purpose of education is well summed up by Pink Floyd's album "The Wall".

Also, to make you make money for your country!

[torres1287]

...never heard the album...*imagines a wall with many MANY people banging their heads into it*...

[QreepyBORIS]

It's about how the system crushes you like a wall. It is also about how the system crushes you into a braick, which is a replacable part of a whole.

Actually, only 3 songs out of like 30-40 are about the education system, but, eh.

[torres1287]

*has seen the light* why thank you...my interpretation wasn't off by much now was it?...

[alainbryden]

All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

You all need that pink floyd album. It is ungodly.
Have you seen the movie based on the album qreepy? It's freaky.

[torres1287]

I have some friends who just might have that album...I'll get a copy. No i haven't seen the movie, but i'll make it a point to find out about it.

[QreepyBORIS]

I have not seen the movie, unfortunately, but I have seen the music video.


Anyone up for some sausage?




But, I digress.

[torres1287]

too much can go wrong with a person eating sausage...*passes out celery and carrots*...two of my favorites...

[alainbryden]

ugh Qreepy, that part was from the album movie too. It's absolutely disgusting.

For those who don't know, it's a very graphic animation of students on a conveyor belt being dropped into a gigantic grinder and coming out are homogenous sausages.

[Charlotte21]

Originally Posted by blahblah18

Well as I"m sitting here racking my brains to try and finish my last take-home final, I was just wondering about the state education has become in the world. Does it really serve any asthetic purpose anymore? Do people actually learn for the sake of learning? How much has colelge merely become vocational training rather then the bastion of learning that it was meant to be, and do we blame the makeup of society or our own ambitions for this?

Part of me agrees with you that college has become a vocational training-ground for getting a job, but part of me also sees education going on there that's all-around beneficial.

I'm only in high school but I can see that I am learning things that aren't cognitive to my life in society, and I still take the time to learn them and take interest in them...

Though I think where this comes from is in High School (and maybe late middle school) we are constantly asked "What do you want to do in life?" and constantly make that a focus of further education. So, when people select college or further education they select it because they want to do a specific job. I think I can safely say that it is the set-up of the state school system that predicates how the college system reacts to it (making college a vocational training ground).

How many students would go to college if you were to tell them "Go to college just to learn more." Much less would go or care if that were the primary focus. Classes and books are expensive (and boring for a lot of people) so they don't want to pay a lot of money to sit in a boring class twice a week for half a year to learn something that won't be directly helpful to their career. And that's because they simply don't see the use for that class.

And on another level: look at the set-up of High School: the entire focus of it is to get you ready to get a job and possibly go to college. To get you ready for society. It teaches you (mainly) the things required to live.

You can be upset about this set-up and how no one learns just to learn anymore. There is no constant increasing of knowledge (though it is a good thing to have). There is a point where people stop caring about educating themselves and just want to mindlessly (bad word choice, gimme a better one) live life.

Though on the flipside there are facilities for those people who learn-just-to-learn: libraries, encyclopedias, wikipedia (I MEAN LOOK AT IT), the internet in general, etc.

Though I think you are confusing learning for purpose with learning for entertainment. School and College are learning for purpose. Anything else is learning for entertainment, and it's foolish to complain about the seperation.

<3 Charlotte

[Moogy]

I was going to post the lyrics to Another Brick in the Wall (part 2), but it seems that would be pointless now. Ah well.

[navyseal101]

[quote="jewpinthethird"][quote="GuidoHunter"][quote="jewpinthethird"][i]You want kids to stop dropping out of school? You want kids to actually look forward to going to school? Yes, I believe a well-rounded education is needed, but the requirements for the High School Exit Exams are 8th grade material...so why the f*ck should I spend 4 years of my life learning stuff I dont ever plan on using outside of school.

When am I going to need to know the structure of an Animal cell if I plan on becoming a mechanic? Why should I be forced to learn Iambic Pentameter if I am going to become a carpenter? Why should I be forced to take 2 years of PE if I plan on becoming a Writer? What good is the quadratic formula going to do me if my goal is to become a concert pianist?

You say that you believe in a well rounded education, but your complaining about being forced to take classes you don't need????

[jewpinthethird]

In middle school you are taught the basics of Physics, Biology, Algebra, Geology, etc. Why should I have to take these courses again in High School if I wont use it ever again? The High School Exit Exam (for California) is at an 8th grade level, so why bother going to school after that? Many kids drop out of school because certain classes are needed to pass.

(California Graduation requirements)
4 years of English
Algebra
2 years of a Forgein Language or Art class or Band
2 years of Physical Edcuation
2 lab sciences

Now, that doesnt seem very tough, but there are some kids who find that hard to accomplish due to a lack of interest.

[DracIV]

First of all, you spend the extra years because you get more cash.
The best paid jobs for someone without a highschool diploma average about $45,000 a year.
The best paid jobs for highschool graduates average about $55,000 a year.
The best paid jobs for 2 years of college average about $75,000.
The best paid jobs for PhD average about $150,000 per year.

In a non-philosophical debate, going to school wins. There is no contest there. In a purely philosophical debate, it gets a bit more complicated. More knowledge helps you develop as an intelligent being and as a personality. You learn more applicable skills- especially those ones you don't expect to help, do. You may think, "Well, knowing the difference between a toad and frog won't help me" and you may be right, but knowing biology itself will help you regularly. Specific things may not help, but humans are all about adaptability and you need to be able to adapt to new situations. Most people have atleast 4 completely different careers in their life, so you can't say, "Well I'm going to be a mechanic, so I don't need to know how to plumbing" because you will probably kick yourself later when you waste hundreds of dollars a year on plumbing fixes and you wish you could be a plumber (but dont know how).

Summary: Having Education > Not