Holiday Myths: Giving to Charity

[PowerCosmic]

Well Tasselfoot, people who care for each other tend to survive a lot longer in a jungle situation than those who care only for themselves. So maybe you could say that caring for others is an evolutionary advantage. And humans, as a social animal, typically feel some sort of responsibility towards other human beings. To me, not caring about another living creature of your own species is both an evolutionary blunder and an unhappy existence. It has been shown in studies that regardless of how much money people make, the three determining factors for happiness are social relationships, health, and safety. Amount of money in no way affects happiness, unless of course you are unable to provide your own basic needs and the needs of your loved ones. Social relationships is the number 1 determining factor for happiness, and if you don't care about anyone, I have a hard time believing that they will care for you for long. People don't really warm up to those that only want to look out for themselves.

[Tasselfoot]

money can buy anything. money can help prolong ones health. money can buy safety. look at all the rich old men with trophey wives.

don't see how your points are helping your argument. and, truthfully... we'll never see eye to eye on this. i have my opinion and you have yours. with that, i shall retire to nocturnal slumber.

[DracIV]

You guys just don't seem to get this. Society has one simple rule: you will succeed if you help others. That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter if you intend to help others, if you even care that you are helping others, or if you want to hurt people. As long as you help people you will succeed. It doesn't matter if you help with a product, a skill, an aircraft design, whatever. It isn't that hard. If you know this one rule and play by it, you will succeed in life finacially, religiously, emotionally, or mentally. Period. There are no exceptions. If you help people you will succeed.

Squeek: Do you enjoy playing any sports? Certain types of work, like running around, or fishing, or dribbling a ball, or whatever can be relaxing. Simple labor is especially relaxing for high intellectuals. Jobs like bricklaying, carpentry, etc. are an effective relaxation technique. 4,000+ years of human knowledge all agrees with me here. The only exception is people with mental instabilities or irregularities (like a tumor) that cripple your perception or ability to relax.

Oh yeah, and what the heck are D and E supposed to mean on your list? "Helping others does not mean wasting time"? That is totally irrelevant to what those letters said. Quick answer to B: both and more. The exception to A was an obvious one, so why did people respond to promptly to A, but completely forget to actually understand what D and E said in my post and instead focus on A and a crippled fragment of E?

[The_Q]

Cosmic Power, I'm afraid that you arrived in CT too late in it's age to fully appreciate that it is a well accepted fact that everything has a price. Yes, there is a price for dignity, respect, and even human life. All the prices change from person to person (just like everything else) , but they are there. If you don't know how putting prices on these things is accomplished, please look on my previous threads, especially on ones involving abortion. Either that or ask me personally to explain it to you.

To address the whole "you're a better person if you donate and give to charities" issue again, this is just a crazed fact that religion often stuffs into people's heads. No, doing things for charity do not make you a better person and they certainly don't make you well remembered. I will admit, though, that it is quite often that many economists overlook certain variables such as "love" and "compassion". Ironic when you think about the purpose of economics, though...

Ok, moving onwards. Who ever said that this pleasure is temporary? If I enjoy myself now, that means I'm starting a habit of enjoying myself (which is work in some cases, but not necessarily volunteer work) and then keep enjoying myself. I'm starting a neverending cycle. To reiterate again, when I buy something else, that money is sent around and around, benefiting everyone who uses it.

Honestly, I don't know how to reply to this without simply repeating what was written in previous posts. You have used points that were supposed to have been defeated and you insist that your morals prevail over factual evidence.

Q

[flypie743]

Originally Posted by MrESqueek

This is going to stem many people hating me, but.. Why am I donating to lazy people in the first place? The rule in this country is "If you're poor, get a job". I already pay tax dollars to lazy people who are on unemployment and welfare, why should I give away more of my hard-earned cash to help someone else instead of myself?

I believe that I come first. I am the most important thing in my life. Everything else comes second. Now, if you want to call that self-centered, go right ahead. Who are you living your life for if not for yourself?

~Squeek

One of the most false beliefs about poor people is that they are lazy. Have you ever heard of the working poor? People who can barely put food on the table working 5 jobs and have kids. They are poor and maybe they only have a low-paying job. Sometimes the poor people can't get jobs. It is not that they are lazy. Not that some aren't. I am not saying that some people are poor and are lazy. However, the stereotype is that all people who are poor are lazy and should get a job.

There is nothing wrong with yourself coming first. I for one believe that I come first and than my family and friends. That doesn't make me unwilling to help out those who need it and to donate money from time to time.

[Tasselfoot]

Drac... what about people who made glow-stuff (clocks, watches, toothpaste, etc) in the 40s and 50s. the substance used to create the glow? Radon. their products killed thousands of people. same with Asbestos. now, those people were successful. they made money. did they help people? they thought their products were, but they weren't. they killed. slowly.

also, what about a guy who day trades his own money. they have no clients who they are making money for... they are only profiting for themselves.

there are plenty more scenarios that i can give to continue proving you wrong, but i think i got my point across.

people donate and do charity work because they want to. because they feel it makes a difference. but, if you look at the economics of it, it doesn't help. it hurts the economy. and, as far as the totality of "you will succeed if you help people," sure... anyone who creates a product that people are willing to buy are obviously helping someone, or making them more appealing, or making them feel safer (jewelry doesn't really help people. guns don't usually help people, etc), but that doesn't mean jack. MOTIVE is what is important... and no CEO is motivated by helping people. Shareholder Profit is the ONLY motivation for a corporation/company... so therefore, its the only motivation for its employees.

[Tasselfoot]

One of the most false beliefs about poor people is that they are lazy. Have you ever heard of the working poor? People who can barely put food on the table working 5 jobs and have kids. They are poor and maybe they only have a low-paying job. Sometimes the poor people can't get jobs. It is not that they are lazy. Not that some aren't. I am not saying that some people are poor and are lazy. However, the stereotype is that all people who are poor are lazy and should get a job.

sure... but if they have to work 5 jobs to pay for themselves and their kids, then they shouldn't have had kids in the first place. their past choices forced them to live in their present lifestyle. be it keeping a child, be it smoking at 12 and dropping out of school, be it not reporting their parents for abuse. every person is responsible for themselves and their choices. so, if someone is living in the slums despite working multiple jobs, then its still their fault. i have no sympathy whatsoever.

PS - i know its a double post, but i just saw flypie's... and this post is completely seperate from the previous one.

[GuidoHunter]

I've gotta agree with Drac here. Despite how economics views volunteering and giving in general, the fact that you will succeed if you help people is a societal rule. It really does work that way.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[flypie743]

What if they don't have kids, but still have trouble paying for their life. Maybe they grew up in with parents who lived in a slummy neighborhood and they were poor from the start. Their parents being poor isn't necissarily their fault.

[Enigma-7]

It's not always donating that helps you be remembered. For example: Beethoven. Did he donate? I don't think so. Is he remembered? Damn right!
My point is, not donating, but contributing to the lives of others helps. Not always in donation, but as a stress reliever, among other things.
And af course, without Beethoven, We'd never have the great song Beethoven Virus in FFR.
It's not always donating money, or doing labor for others, though thats a good part of it. Contributing to the comminity in any way gets you +Heaven pts., and Karma (Mentioned before)
You don't have to contribute 10k to the orphanage and then have them build a statue to be honored and remembered.

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by flypie743

What if they don't have kids, but still have trouble paying for their life. Maybe they grew up in with parents who lived in a slummy neighborhood and they were poor from the start. Their parents being poor isn't necissarily their fault.

No, but their being poor is their fault. America isn't called "The Land of Opportunity" for nothing.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Tasselfoot]

no, but even the poor can go to college. get student loans. no one is too poor to go to college. there are thousands of scholarships for poor people to go to college, plus loans. there is no excuse.

[flypie743]

It's not always that easy for them.

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by flypie743

It's not always that easy for them.

God forbid you have to work to change your social status. Hey, I've got an idea! I don't like to work, so I'll vote democrats into office so they'll start (and keep) all sorts of government programs that just dole out money to me!

Whoops, sorry, Q, for the off-topicness.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[flypie743]

Well, some of them just can't get into college like that. Some of them do work and they still can't manage. You are only stereotyping.

[Enigma-7]

Maybe they just have jobs that have low pay, mentioned above, but surely they can keep that job for now and find another job with better pay and quit the first one.

[Tasselfoot]

ya know something flypie.... stereotypes came to be for a reason. care to know what that reason is? because its TRUE!!!

[stretchypanda]

Originally Posted by flypie743

It's not always that easy for them.

If work was easy it would not be work. This is nothing but a sorry excuse.

Donations to charity are fine, but most charitable organizations prefer donations of time and effort much more than anything else.. or donations of materials, rather than money. Most soup kitchens get free food from grocery stores, or thrift bakeries. Animal shelters use adoption fees to buy food and spay/neuter the animals they house.

I've done all kinds of volunteer work -- walking dogs at the humane society, serving breakfast to people down on their luck on their way to (gasp!) work, performing in a play to raise awareness for a children's home. I do it because my efforts are appreciated. If they were not, I would probably find something else to do with my time.

This is not the time of year for charity. Every day is the time of year for charity. Any kind.

[evilbutterfly]

Ya know, I don't think it's fair to say that being poor is completely a person's fault. In this country, though, people are much more socially mobile. Starting poor can make people despair and feel like they'll never catch up, but really, most people don't change their social class. People who grow up middle class tend to be middle class, poor people tend to stay poor, and the rich...well, the rich can lose it all really quickly.

But seriously, being poor in the US is awesome compared to being even middle class in other countries. My sister isn't too well off, so she gets food stamps. She was telling me yesterday how much food she got with her food stamps, and hot damn was it a lot. In fact, I think she may get more food than my family does, and she only has to provide for her and her husband, not a family of 4. She just works at Wal-Mart for not much at all, and she's doing just fine.

Of course, life in the ghettos is rougher than her semi-ghetto area, but you still have food stamps, unemployment checks, and other government aid. With that, you can at least get your kids to go to school and be educated so they can get better jobs. The government gives tons of money for kids to go to college, plus individuals and businesses give many scholarships specifically for people who don't have much money. Clawing your way up out of poverty is hard work, but so is clawing your way from middle class up to high class, but this is more common. I think the main thing is the despairity. Poor people think they can't get any better, so they don't try. Middle class kids are constantly told to be the best they can and grow up and get rich, so they, very early on, set goals to get them into college so they can have the high paying jobs. Anybody can do it, but middle class people are more motivated to do it. I think one of the most important things for the lower class people is encouragement and a little bit of a boost to set them moving and show them that it's possible.

[Enigma-7]

Originally Posted by evilbutterfly

Ya know, I don't think it's fair to say that being poor is completely a person's fault. In this country, though, people are much more socially mobile. Starting poor can make people despair and feel like they'll never catch up, but really, most people don't change their social class. People who grow up middle class tend to be middle class, poor people tend to stay poor, and the rich...well, the rich can lose it all really quickly.

But seriously, being poor in the US is awesome compared to being even middle class in other countries. My sister isn't too well off, so she gets food stamps. She was telling me yesterday how much food she got with her food stamps, and hot damn was it a lot. In fact, I think she may get more food than my family does, and she only has to provide for her and her husband, not a family of 4. She just works at Wal-Mart for not much at all, and she's doing just fine.

Of course, life in the ghettos is rougher than her semi-ghetto area, but you still have food stamps, unemployment checks, and other government aid. With that, you can at least get your kids to go to school and be educated so they can get better jobs. The government gives tons of money for kids to go to college, plus individuals and businesses give many scholarships specifically for people who don't have much money. Clawing your way up out of poverty is hard work, but so is clawing your way from middle class up to high class, but this is more common. I think the main thing is the despairity. Poor people think they can't get any better, so they don't try. Middle class kids are constantly told to be the best they can and grow up and get rich, so they, very early on, set goals to get them into college so they can have the high paying jobs. Anybody can do it, but middle class people are more motivated to do it. I think one of the most important things for the lower class people is encouragement and a little bit of a boost to set them moving and show them that it's possible.

Totally true. If people in the low class actually get the encouragement to do better, the CAN do it. Middle-class people already have something so they thing that it is possible to have more, whereas high-class people think they have it all and then spend it all on expensive things therefore they are brought down.
What I'm saying is, all that poor people need is a bit of encouragement, and they can claw their way out.