On Drug Use

[lord_carbo]

Originally Posted by ToshX

Haven't you ever heard of a drug abuser robbing a convenience store? Probably a lot more often than an alcoholic doing the same. Drugs can just be really, really expensive :/

So can my WoW bills.

[MalReynolds]

Well...

I still think steroids in baseball are a bad situation.

[ToshX]

Originally Posted by lord_carbo

So can my WoW bills.

Yeah, but that's like $13 a month. I mean, I don't like WoW, but there's a huge difference between like, you know, $13 a month and $100 every week or two. It's simply a habit that doesn't really need to be there.

Originally Posted by MalReynolds

Well...

I still think steroids in baseball are a bad situation.

This kinda stuff is all around the news. What's your point?

[aperson]

Originally Posted by Verruckter

EDIT: All of my friends are cool with the fact that I don't drink/take drugs. My motto is pretty much "Live and let live", I don't care what you do as long as you don't bother me and you tolerate/respect me.

Kickin', that's the way it should be. Anyone who blows smoke in your face is a dick.

I don't see much learning in that other than the "I've been there and done it" argument, which doesn't add up to much because it won't really help you do something useful (if it does, tell me, I'd love to know).

...Time to get philosophical, brace yourself (yes, eventually drugs do come in here).

About two years ago, I finally started cementing my philosophical understanding of the world by reading some cognitive science books, like Metaphors we Live By by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson (I highly recommend you read it if you get a chance). This book describes the way we view that world as a mapping process where we map metaphors onto situations to construe meaning. Other writers such have Douglas Hofstadter (who wrote Godel Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, another fantastic book) have echoed these thoughts by saying that all of our process of thinking and meaning is generated through analogy. In this sense, you kind of get a symbolic structure of thinking where we compose symbols into supersymbols to create new notions of the world (i.e. the symbol tree is composed of the metaphors {brown, green, leaves, trunk, roots, etc...}).

Benjamin Whorf, another cognitive science / linguistics author wrote that, at it's most basic level (before we consture symbolic schemas onto the world), the world exists as nothing but a kaleidoscopic flux of sensation. In essence, this is the bottom level of input from which we start creating all these symbols (based on models of feature detecftion and other similar structures).

The other area I've gotten into is Buddhism, so I'll tie these two areas together. Buddhism says that, ultimately, everything is empty. By empty, we mean that all of these symbolic constructions we've built arise from an empty substrate. Included in these symbols is our construction of self. In this sense, the self arise as a thinking entity from an empty substrate. This self can, through it's top-down way of generalizing the world, view things in the world as having inherent properties (rather than properly being viewed as just arising from a series of causes). The self, then, becomes trapped in this deluded world of desire created from these generalizations of inherence. Because of this, Buddhists say that true perception of the world is selfless perception. To understand this selfless perception, they stress two sides of teaching to reach enlightenment: Merit and Wisdom.

Wisdom is the philosophical side. Wisdom is the side of thinking and coming to an understanding of these conclusions I'm talking about above (among many other things, though. Buddhism has a lot more to say than just this). Merit is the side of experience. It is easy to say everything is empty, but without true experience of the emptiness of everything, there will be a lacuna of understanding. While I feel that I've come to some of these experiences without drugs, mushrooms and LSD have been some key factors in assisting the Merit side of understanding.

On sufficiently strong doses of mushrooms, the world disintegrates into a synesthetic current. Sound, vision, and all my sensations become merged together to the point that I cannot distinguish any of them individually. This experience I liken to the kaleidoscopic flux Whorf describes. It is a selfless, egoless perception of the world. In fact, the best way I can describe my strong mushroom trips is as pure, unadulterated perception. Here, there is no self symbol, there is nothing other than the current moment I am in and the kaleidoscopic flux of sensation that washes over my mind. To describe it as beautiful would be both an understatement and grossly incorrect. It is a completely emotionless, yet profoundly blissful state, and from it I feel I've cultivated many healthy properties.

Once I have stripped the self away through this, a compassion for everything, both animate and inanimate, arises. This property has carried over from my tripping into day to day life, and I feel it has made me much less judgmental and much more thoughtful of the world. Additionally, I feel it has given me a closer perception of the emptiness of all; Once all these symbols are stripped down, judgments and desires disappear, and I see the equanimity of everything in the world.

These are the insights that I feel hallucinogens give me. Their effects, if you choose to let them, go far beyond distorting the world and your perspective on it. There is a reason that drugs such as mushrooms and LSD have been called entheogens (Spiritual drugs. i.e. drugs which 'generate the divine within'). They can allow us to gain a very open and aware perception of the world.


Also, I realize this may be a bit hard to follow. But really, I've written 15 page papers on just segments of this post. There's a lot that could be said here and I'm trying to condense it down a lot.

[aperson]

Originally Posted by soulofcerberus

First off, don't accuse me of hating druggies/drug dealers because my sister has done drugs and currently buys them, then sells them to her friends for a profit, so technically I live with a drug dealer.

I wasn't accusing you of anything. I'm sorry if it appeared that way.

Yet as for the fun and learning.. you have THOUSANDS of other alternatives! Why would you need to resort to a drug that will change what you perceive as normal? I have plenty of stuff that I do for fun and learning, and I have absolutely no desire or need to do drugs.

Playing the "Why?" card is dangerous because "Why not?" is a really good answer. People are different. Some people have desires to do drugs; some don't. Some people view their health and sanity as traits they wish to preserve; some don't. Different symbolic constructions of the world lead to different outcomes, I suppose.

I've tried the nastiest of the downers and uppers and I just don't have a desire to do them because they don't appeal to me. Hallucinogens just do have that appeal. They unlock parts of perception that I think are interesting to explore. To some people, those parts aren't that interesting; maybe the nastiest of the uppers and downers appeal to them or maybe none of them appeal to them. People are different; we all have our own "why?" or "why not?"

[MalReynolds]

Originally Posted by ToshX

This kinda stuff is all around the news. What's your point?

It was a joke. Considering how Baseball is supposed to be a level playing field for competitors while life is nothing more than your collective experieneces, drawing a parallel between the two when in the sport there is a more blatant black and white area was meant to be sardonic.

Or something.

[Kilgamayan]

Originally Posted by aperson

brace yourself

OH HO

[jewpinthethird]

Hallucinogens just do have that appeal. They unlock parts of perception that I think are interesting to explore. To some people, those parts aren't that interesting

My sentiments exactly. I haven't done LSD or Shrooms, but I've been smoking marijuana daily since last summer and I must say, my creative output has grown exponentially. Thoughts and ideas just click in an unstoppable surge...almost as if the drug unleashes my imagination. It motivates me to create, whether it be art, music, or poetry/prose. But the thing is, it's almost strictly a personal thing. I don't enjoy being high in public. I do smoke with my friends who smoke, but really I prefer to be alone when I am high.

[All_That_Chaz]

Drugs are good, they let you do things that you know you not should.
And when you do 'em people think that you're cool.
And when you do 'em people think that you're cool.

[ToshX]

I consider "drugs are cool" to be far more annoying than "drugs are bad", but that's just me.

[DJ Reality Lives]

Ok, so let's say I wanted to start to use hallucenogenics (I'm not bandwagoning, I've been thinking about this for quite some time). How would I get them? About shrooms... Are certain shrooms more powerful than others? Could I just use any shroom?

I've already tried two different types of drugs: X and cocaine, both of which felt OK during the time I was high, but was REALLY GAY when I lost the high. What does the "crash", so to speak, feel like?

[aperson]

Originally Posted by DJ Reality Lives

Ok, so let's say I wanted to start to use hallucenogenics (I'm not bandwagoning, I've been thinking about this for quite some time). How would I get them? About shrooms... Are certain shrooms more powerful than others? Could I just use any shroom?

I've already tried two different types of drugs: X and cocaine, both of which felt OK during the time I was high, but was REALLY GAY when I lost the high. What does the "crash", so to speak, feel like?

Hallucinogens don't have any kind of "crash" like other drugs, just a slow reassembling of reality, and a feeling that you're coming back from far away mental spaces. There are a few different kind of mushrooms to look for. Most of what you get will be various strains of psilocybin cubensis. These are your run of the mill mushrooms, I'd recommend taking 2 to 2.5 grams on your first dose. Eating a whole eigth (3.5g) might be a bit intense. For acid, I'd recommend taking 2 hits your first time if you get that instead. If you happen to come across something like panaeolus cyanescens or azurescens, as little as a half a gram can give you a damn good trip; however, I'd wager that 90% of what you get are cubensis.

Finding hallucinogens like these can be a bit of a quest. Shrooms come and go as peoples grows come and go, and acid can be incredibly hit or miss unless you have solid connections. However, if you search long enough I'm sure you'll find them.

Also, before you do either I would recommend reading through the experience reports on http://www.erowid.org for whatever drug you'll be doing. Come into hallucinogens with an open mind, and don't just expect your experience to be dumb fun. Both of these drugs have the ability to tear into your brain and make you listen, if you don't want to hear what they have to say you could be in for a hard trip. However, they can both be fantastically pleasant experiences, and some of my best acid and mushroom trips will go down as some of the most ecstatic events to occur in my life.

[whiteflame]

Originally Posted by DJ Reality Lives

Ok, so let's say I wanted to start to use hallucenogenics (I'm not bandwagoning, I've been thinking about this for quite some time). How would I get them? About shrooms... Are certain shrooms more powerful than others? Could I just use any shroom?

I've already tried two different types of drugs: X and cocaine, both of which felt OK during the time I was high, but was REALLY GAY when I lost the high. What does the "crash", so to speak, feel like?

Personally I wouldn't want to be around you if you were to take a hallucinogen.

[jewpinthethird]

Jesus Christ. People. Don't do cocaine. Don't do heroine. Don't do speed. Don't do GHB. And, in my opinion, don't do ecstasy. I have smoked cigarettes, and I hate it. However, I do enjoy smoking tobacco with a pipe (in fact, I have a pipe collection), but really, it's more of an accessory. I do drink, but rarely. But the only atypical drugs I have used are marijuana and Salvia divinorum. Both are psychedelics, and even though they are completely different chemically, the high more or less just wears off. Usually, if I smoke at night, I do go to bed high (best. thing. e~v~e~r.), but in the morning I'm fine.

I don't know much about how to obtain them, but you can't talk about illegal activities on FFR.

However, if you are interested in doing shrooms, or any psychedelic, dedicate at least an entire day (or two days), to do the drug. Have a sitter, someone who will remain sober, and is someone you trust. They're there to make sure you don't hurt yourself. You don't want a lot of people interfering with your trip, because it could mess things up if they are chill, you know? Most importantly, have a safe, calm, comfortable setting. Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs. That could lead to a horrible trip.

[aperson]

Let me stress this for emphasis

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Shrooms and LSD aren't party drugs.

Mushrooms and Salvia have long been used by Shamans in Mexico for divining rituals. Hopefully this will give you a reference point for what kind of stuff you will be getting into. (LSD is much the same, but so different at the same time).

[Cavernio]

"Playing the "Why?" card is dangerous because "Why not?" is a really good answer. People are different. Some people have desires to do drugs; some don't. Some people view their health and sanity as traits they wish to preserve; some don't. Different symbolic constructions of the world lead to different outcomes, I suppose."

Purposefully making yourself unhealthy and insane harms society because you will then stop being a functional part of it, and harming society can be seen as harming others; all this besides the direct harm of violent crime associated with drug trade.

[sherbtail]

Originally Posted by Verruckter

Because the government knows what's good for you

Ha, was this sarcasm, I hope so...
Just because the government deems something illegal doesn't mean its better or worse for you than something that is legal, I'd much rather take psychadelics than smoke tobacco yet the latter is legal and the former are mostly illegal, crazy world.

I've just been reading the last few pages and someone mentioned laughing gas somewhere, although they were talking about a dentist setting I think. Well it appears that laughing gas is fast cementing itself as a new club drug here in the UK, while illegal under the distribution of medicines act (or something along those lines) many clubs blatantly sell it and set up gas stalls (not very subtle) and there have so far been very very few prosecutions, it will be interesting to see how the government handles the situation...

[Cavernio]

The government, although far from perfect, does not legalize a drug without first testing it scientifically for fairly immediate detrimental effects. I believe the guidelines for FDA approval are fairly stringent. Having a smoke doesn't make you not able to to do your job that day.

[aperson]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Purposefully making yourself unhealthy and insane harms society because you will then stop being a functional part of it, and harming society can be seen as harming others; all this besides the direct harm of violent crime associated with drug trade.

Now you're having to climb a slippery slope to get to your point. I could use the same argument to show that junk food should be removed from society because it is unhealthy and in large quantities keeps us from being functioning members of society. Additionally, the direct harm of violent crime associated with the drug trade is all because they are illegal. The same thing happened with alcohol when it was legal, and the crime associated with alcohol disappeared when it was legalized.

The government, although far from perfect, does not legalize a drug without first testing it scientifically for fairly immediate detrimental effects. I believe the guidelines for FDA approval are fairly stringent. Having a smoke doesn't make you not able to to do your job that day.

FDA guidelines are incredibly stringent, that's why large pharmaceutical companies get sole distribution rights on a drug for a set time after it is approved; recouping the costs from testing a drug is a nontrivial affair. However, they also seem to have the ability to demonize drugs that have no detrimental effects. Isn't it quite hilarious that marijuana has no medical value (schedule I) when study after study (I could go on for awhile, but I'll stop at two) show that marijuana has useful medical benefits.

Additionally, you're implying that psychedelics incapacitate you for a day. Did you know that Crick was on LSD when he discovered the double helix structure of DNA. Beyond that, who is to say people don't have a choice to do what they want in their leisure time.

[jewpinthethird]

Purposefully making yourself unhealthy and insane harms society because you will then stop being a functional part of it, and harming society can be seen as harming others; all this besides the direct harm of violent crime associated with drug trade.

Off the top of my head, Aldous Huxley, John Lennon, Jack Kerouac, Ken Kesey, and Albert Hofmann were all advocates of LSD and other psychedelics while at the same time not only functional members of society, but some of the most influential people in modern history.

Of course, I am speaking only for psychedelics. There are definitely drugs out there that are extremely dangerous: opiates, amphetamines, cocaine, and certain depressants like GHB (I've presented this list before, but it's something worth repeating). The important thing to remember is: before doing any drug, research it first. Read up on both the "good" trips and "bad" trips and make sure you get your drugs from a trustworthy source (never trust drug dealers. Many of them deal drugs for a living, meaning they are business[wo]men and will try with all their persuasive power to get you to buy off them. Be extremely cautious, always).