"Are my Jacks Okay?!?!?!"

[dore]

So yeah, lots of people are always asking "are [insert #] bpm [insert note type] alright?" Here's some cutoff points for you. Note that any bpm in between these cutoff values will have a percentage of jacks of the two values the bpm is bounded by (e.g. 175 bpm 16th jacks will have some 3 framers and some 2 framers since 175 is between 150 and 225, the two cutoff points on either side).

PUT SIMPLY
The max speed you should have of 4th jacks is 450bpm
The max speed you should have of 8th jacks is 225bpm
The max speed you should have of 12th jacks is 150bpm
The max speed you should have of 16th jacks is 112.5bpm
The max speed you should have of 24th jacks is 75bpm
etc.

Any jacks faster than that listed above risks auto-rejection for potential 3-framers. While not all files will be rejected for potential 3-framers, most will be, so unless there is an extremely musically-relevant reason to put in a jack faster than this you will most likely have your file rejected.

============================
Cutoff Values

For 16th notes:
90bpm = 5 framers
112.5bpm = 4 framers
150bpm = 3 framers
225bpm = 2 framers
450bpm = 1 framers
900bpm = 0 framers

From these values, a little simple math can help us determine everything else.

For 4th notes:
360bpm = 5 framers
450bpm = 4 framers
600bpm = 3 framers
900bpm = 2 framers
1800bpm = 1 framers
3600bpm (lol) = 0 framers

For 8th notes:
180bpm = 5 framers
225bpm = 4 framers
300bpm = 3 framers
450bpm = 2 framers
900bpm = 1 framers
1800bpm = 0 framers

For 12th notes:
120bpm = 5 framers
150bpm = 4 framers
200bpm = 3 framers
300bpm = 2 framers
600bpm = 1 framers
1200bpm = 0 framers

For 24th notes:
60bpm = 5 framers
75bpm = 4 framers
100bpm = 3 framers
150bpm = 2 framers
300bpm = 1 framers
600bpm = 0 framers

For 32nd notes:
45bpm = 5 framers
56.25bpm = 4 framers
75bpm = 3 framers
112.5 bpm = 2 framers
225bpm = 1 framers
450bpm = 0 framers

For 48th notes:
30bpm = 5 framers
37.5bpm = 4 framers
50bpm = 3 framers
75bpm = 2 framers
150bpm = 1 framers
300bpm = 0 framers

For 3/32nd notes:
135bpm = 5 framers
168.75bpm = 4 framers
225bpm = 3 framers
337.5bpm = 2 framers
675bpm = 1 framers
1350bpm = 0 framers

And finally, for 64ths:
22.5bpm = 5 framers
28.125bpm = 4 framers
37.5bpm = 3 framers
56.25bpm = 2 framers
112.5bpm = 1 framers
225bpm = 0 framers

5-framers: No overlap at all, you will only avmiss if you hit the first arrow late. Always okay in any file.
4-framers: The last perfect frame will be covered up. You have to hit one of the early frames to get perfects on both arrows. The only way your file will get rejected for 4-framers is if you have 8435843 in a row (like AIM Anthem).
3-framers: 2/3 of the perfect window is covered up. You have to hit extremely early to avoid avmissing while still getting a perfect. Your file will most likely get rejected for 3-framers unless you are stepping an extremely technical classical piece of music.
2-framers: Impossible to AAA, you must hit before the perfect window to avoid an avmiss. Your file will be rejected for 2-framers unless it is a FGO (difficulty 12/12) classical piece, and even then it might not go through. It's best to avoid them altogether.
0/1-framers: Don't waste the judges' time.

I hope this helps everyone.

[brothaice]

Stick it.

[customstuff]

Sticky!

[DDRFREAK500]

Sticky

[bluguerrilla]

Maybe you should add a math section so people can understand exactly why this is?

[g4z33b0]

Great thread, dore

[dore]

Maybe you should add a math section so people can understand exactly why this is?

Just divide whatever value you want by its corresponding 16th note value to find the multiplier (e.g. (12th note 5 framers)/(16th note 5 framers) = 120/90 = 4/3)). I'd edit this in but my edit button doesn't work on this proxy I'm currently using.

[Rebirth0]

One problem.

I've never heard of anyone talking about 5-framers. Tass always talks about 4-framers being in songs at around 180 bpm. (Like in K8107, he says there are some 4-framers because of 8th note jacks and that's 180 bpm 8ths)

[Tasselfoot]

yes. 5 framers are safe. 180bpm chains are all 5 framers. the thing with k8107 (and any exactly 180 bpm songs) is that the gap will shift that slightly.

only if it is 180bpm AND 0 gap will it be all EXACTLY 5 framers. otherwise, 1 out of every 200 or so (no idea on actual, just making up numbers) will be a 4 framer. very very small percentage.

for the most part, 180bpm = 0 4 framers.

[samuri#1]

i play on C799

[jugglinguy]

Great thread dore.

[dore]

Thanks for the sticky :D

[Silver_Brian]

Great thread, I'll probably reference this for future files.

[Tayfun]

nice dore.

[Neonatrias]

Very helpful. 11/10, would use as reference again.

=)

[rshadow8888]

Nice. This answers a few questions I had.

[hi19hi19]

All this does is make it harder for the testers, lol


****ty file makers will still get their files rejected, just now the testers have to play throught them haha


EDIT- You might want to add that:

5 framers are always okay and are in basically every single file Challenging or harder.
4 framers are always okay unless you manage to do something really retarded with them like a jack made of 10000 4 framers in a row.
3 framers are where the "incredibly annoying and you dont want them in your file" starts to happen. Try to avoid them, and they might be grounds for rejection. For examples of 3 framers that actually fit the song, try Anubis.
2 framers are really bad, don't use them. Molto Vivace, Piano Etude, Nova Pulser, and Gradeus are good examples of 2 framers and how bad they are to have in your file.
If you use 1 framers your file will be rejected.
If you use 0 framers you will be ejected.

[Tasselfoot]

4 framers are always okay unless you manage to do something really retarded with them like a jack made of 10000 4 framers in a row.

sup AIM Anthem.

[smartdude1212]

and Turbulence are good examples of 2 framers

Turbulence has 3-framers, not 2-framers.
Change that to Gradeus or something.

[hi19hi19]

Turbulence has 3-framers, not 2-framers.
Change that to Gradeus or something.
GRADEUS thats the one I was thinking of lol

Thanks for reminding me!

[thechild]

I still don't know what "framers" are :0.

[rshadow8888]

5 framer - can hit both notes perfect
4 framer - can hit both notes perfect, but it's a little more difficult
3 framer - can hit both notes perfect, but it's even more difficult
2 framer - forces you to hit the 1 note as a good and the other can be hit as a perfect
1 framer - forces you to hit the 1 note as an average and the other can be hit as a perfect
0 framer - forces you to miss 1 note, the other can be hit as a perfect


That help at all?

[Nightfirecat]

I still don't know what "framers" are :0.

the term framers is referring to frames of gameplay (FFR runs at 30 frames per second) and depending how close notes are together, you may be able to hit a note that is on time, but since FFR is run from flash instead of a more reliable programming language, it will register the 2nd note, but not the first... hence the term 4-framer refers to 2 notes in the same direction that are 4 frames apart and you can hit the 2nd one even when you were trying to hit the first one.

[Shashakiro]

Anubis doesn't have any 3-framers.

tass edit: nope. but either 36 or 38 4-framers. i forget offhand.

[rednanaki]

Wait so if i put 150 bpm sixteenth jacks in my file, there's a teeny weeny chance it's a 2 framer?

[dore]

Yeah, but if it's 150 and the judges accept it chances are Tass will manually turn the 2 framer into a 3 framer if it happens to be that way. There is a very slight chance of that occurring, so don't worry about that.

[jimerax]

Wait so if i put 150 bpm sixteenth jacks in my file, there's a teeny weeny chance it's a 2 framer?

Note that even 3-framers will remarkably reduce the chance of your file being accepted in general.
Needless to say 2-framers.

[customstuff]

So, can I make 185 BPM 8th note jacks and thrills?

[dore]

Yeah, you can do up to 225 before the judges start getting picky.

[customstuff]

cool.

[rednanaki]

Note that even 3-framers will remarkably reduce the chance of your file being accepted in general.
Needless to say 2-framers.

I stepped it w/ pitch relevance, and it works well in SM, but yeah i'll take em out.

[tricky77puzzle]

The thing about the first post, though, is that it depends on a 60 FPS display. (Thus a 16th note on 900 bpm would be a 1-framer, because 16*900/4=3600, or 60*60.) What happens if the display goes to about 20 FPS? (That happens to me a lot.) Then a 16-th note on, say, 300 bpm would be a 1-framer. And then a 4th note on 300 BPM would be a 4-framer. Well, 4-framers aren't too much of a problem... just look at "Flight of the Bumblebee".

[falcondude]

The thing about the first post, though, is that it depends on a 60 FPS display. (Thus a 16th note on 900 bpm would be a 1-framer, because 16*900/4=3600, or 60*60.) What happens if the display goes to about 20 FPS? (That happens to me a lot.) Then a 16-th note on, say, 300 bpm would be a 1-framer. And then a 4th note on 300 BPM would be a 4-framer. Well, 4-framers aren't too much of a problem... just look at "Flight of the Bumblebee".

30 FPS. And you still have the same amount of time to hit the note... 3 frames at 30 fps takes the same amount of time as 2 frames at 20. Sorry if thats confusing.

[omgitznpv]

*complete edit*

A 5 minute file of mine is loaded with 8th note jacks @ 245.94 BPM, as well as a few 16th note jacks. Big problem there?

[dore]

yeah

[tricky77puzzle]

My stepfile for "Fury Of the Storm" by Dragonforce features 800-bpm trample voltage, which would be 2.2-framers on FFR.

30 FPS. And you still have the same amount of time to hit the note... 3 frames at 30 fps takes the same amount of time as 2 frames at 20. Sorry if that's confusing.

No, isn't it 60 FPS? Because If 4th notes are 0-framers at 3600 bpm... oh, never mind.

I possibly read it wrong, I thought 3600 bpm was a 1-framer.

[Coolboyrulez0]

No, FFR is 30FPS. They plan to make 3rd style 60FPS. That would be nice of them.

CBR

[Knoobish]

My stepfile for "Fury Of the Storm" by Dragonforce features 800-bpm trample voltage, which would be 2.2-framers on FFR.



No, isn't it 60 FPS? Because If 4th notes are 0-framers at 3600 bpm... oh, never mind.

I possibly read it wrong, I thought 3600 bpm was a 1-framer.

We don't have dragonforce permission. Go read the permission thread.

[customstuff]

How likely would 170 BPM 16ths be rejected?

[BEN.(SPEIRS) 7.5]

How likely would 170 BPM 16ths be rejected?

Probably very...

[customstuff]

Just one of them though...

[BEN.(SPEIRS) 7.5]

Just one of them though...

Maybe then...

[Xandertrax]

Are 140 bpm 16th jacks pushing the limit too much?

[Tasselfoot]

yes.

[Xandertrax]

Nuts.

[dore]

Added the overview of the jack system.

I'll add in a math portion if I get unlazy.

[silvercomet1525]

As far as I know, there aren't any songs with 0-framers, right?

If there was, what would it look like? Just a single note like all the others?

[meno_rocks123]

Chrono had 0-framers but it's gone now.

[smartdude1212]

vrofl has 0-framers but gl picking them out without using the SM editor.

[silvercomet1525]

(Heh, apparently I don't know much)

So that's why it was removed some time ago? I never actually got the chance to play it, so I didn't know.

[dore]

It was removed because of permission issues but the 0-framers expedited that process.

[Paradox0]

(Heh, apparently I don't know much)

So that's why it was removed some time ago? I never actually got the chance to play it, so I didn't know.


Honestlky, this (along with FF7 boss), where pretty bad anyways, so you didn't miss a thing (now if they just got rid of the hip-hop section I'd be happy)

[sente3]

I'm assuming they aren't alright, but are 160 BPM 16th note jacks ok? I have a strong feeling the answer is no, but I wanted to check.

[rshadow8888]

I'm assuming they aren't alright, but are 160 BPM 16th note jacks ok? I have a strong feeling the answer is no, but I wanted to check.

Those would be 2/3 framers, so no, unless you are making a FGO file and the jacks are absolutely necessary.

[sente3]

Those would be 2/3 framers, so no, unless you are making a FGO file and the jacks are absolutely necessary.

No, I'm not and thanks for the calculation. I don't understand that fully.

[dore]

Made a small edit to the intro, hopefully that is more clear.

[blahblahblahblahblahblah]

I'm still a little confused... Okay so, I'm trying to make a FMO song and the BPM is 160. I have lots of 24th notes running through my file.. which means I might have 2 framers..

To avoid this I'd have to.. keep each 24th arrow 3 spaces apart to keep them from jacking?

[rshadow8888]

If I am doing my math right, those would be mostly 4 framers with some 5 framers... or maybe 3 and 4. Either way, it should be ok for a FMO file.

[dore]

I'm still a little confused... Okay so, I'm trying to make a FMO song and the BPM is 160. I have lots of 24th notes running through my file.. which means I might have 2 framers..

To avoid this I'd have to.. keep each 24th arrow 3 spaces apart to keep them from jacking?

You should try to avoid 12th jacks at 160 bpm (can cause 3-framers). But 8th jacks are okay, and 12ths would be as long as they're used in moderation (And the rest of the file is good). Don't just have a 24th stream with a metric ****-tonne of 12th jacks in it, because that's just retarded.

[jimerax]

Available patterns are limited on 160 BPM 24ths = OMW speed.

[gnr61]

OK, so if 4-framers dont actually start until 225 BPM, then why do I always avmiss out the ass on songs like Cold Breath, Be Princess, Aztec (215 i think), SP (215), and BBRevenge (204)?

Sorry, just still a bit confused I guess.

[dore]

225=every 8th jack is a 4-framer
180=every 8th jack is a 5-framer
anything in between= mix of 4-framers and 5-framers

[gnr61]

Ok, so like the big long 8th note jumpjacks in SP arent ALL 4 framers. well that makes more sense. =)

[blahblahblahblahblahblah]

Available patterns are limited on 160 BPM 24ths = OMW speed.

Yeah, I just noticed that.. which sucks cause now it's just repetitive patterns..

You should try to avoid 12th jacks at 160 bpm (can cause 3-framers). But 8th jacks are okay, and 12ths would be as long as they're used in moderation (And the rest of the file is good). Don't just have a 24th stream with a metric ****-tonne of 12th jacks in it, because that's just retarded.

Lol, I don't even know if this file'll work anymore, xD.

[dean_machine]

I need help. I don't understand how to do the math, but I need to know how many frames are in between a 3/32th jack, like 1 32nd note short of an 1/8th note jack, on 140bpm. Sorry for the bump, but it's necessary.

[jimerax]

Yea we should note about 32/3ths(32th + 16th), they sometimes appear in 32nd streams.
For example, a pattern with a 32nd roll + a double always has a 32/3th at least.

If you use a 32/3th on a song that's over 168.75 BPM, it will be a potential 3-framer.

[dore]

I'll go back and calculate that sometime.

[cyrx900]

Are 48th rolls on a stepfile going at 149 BPM a major problem?

[jimerax]

48th rolls = 12th jacks
Almost all notes will be 4-framers.

Only short one that goes with the music well is allowed.

[Xandertrax]

Ok, I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about earlier, but I need to know if this will create a 3 framer at 200 bpm.

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5425/arrowszl4.jpg

[rshadow8888]

I think it will. Too lazy to do the math now though

[dore]

Yes, it has potential to make a 3-framer. See Rottel (which randomly has one 3-framer).

[Zageron]

Is this acceptable? Or will it cause 2.5 framers?
105 BPM This shows one beat. xD Also it's on x2 or x3.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k11/Eranegera/oshi-.jpg

[dore]

Yeah, those are OK up until ~170ish BPM. Those'll be 7-framers or something lol.

[Xandertrax]

Wait, 32nd jacks?

For 32nd notes:
45bpm = 5 framers
56.25bpm = 4 framers
75bpm = 3 framers
112.5 bpm = 2 framers
225bpm = 1 framers
450bpm = 0 framers

according to that, it'd be a mix of 2 and 3 framers...

[dore]

Those are 3/32nd jacks, halfway between 16th and 8th jacks.

EDIT: Wait, which post are you referring to?

[Zageron]

But, If I put those notes one after another, It would cause jacks right?

[Xandertrax]

Crap, I was looking at that wrong.

Nevermind. It would make jacks, yes, but it would not incite jack syndrome.

[stargroup100]

I find it amazing that people have trouble understanding and converting these values. It's all basic math.

Also you generally don't need this table, aside from the key pieces of information. You can generally figure out all the framers by estimation.

[dore]

I'm going to add something in simpler terms, instead of a giant block of info like it is now.

EDIT: Is that clearer?

I'll add 3/32nd notes some other time.

[jimerax]

For 3/32nd notes:
135bpm = 5 framers
168.75bpm = 4 framers
225bpm = 3 framers
337.5bpm = 2 framers
675bpm = 1 framers
1350bpm = 0 framers

[dore]

Thanks JX :)

[dean_machine]

Ooh, thank you Jimerax. That means a few of my notes are potentially 4 framers at 140bpm.

[RVL]

Available patterns are limited on 160 BPM 24ths = OMW speed.

Wait, isn't 160 bpm in between 150 and 300 bpm? For 24ths, 150 is 2 framers and 300 is 1 framers. If it is in between, how come One Minute Waltz has ALL 2 framer jacks instead of any 1 framer jacks?

[dore]

It's random. It just happens that every occurrence of a 24th jack happened to be 2-framers.

[dore]

/outdated

[Tasselfoot]

not quite yet.

[Sir_Thomas]

Muahahaha This Thread Will Soon Be Fking Nothihng.
Fk You Av Misses Kiss My Ass!

HAHAHAHAHA!

[-Yukari-]

The question is, will they decide to release the fix in this version of the game :)

[Erik542]

The question is, will they decide to release the fix in this version of the game :)

Yes. 'Cause I said so.

[dore]

Well I guess this thread is still worth something because you still know the likelihood of your jacks being 2 or 3 framers. Even though that doesn't mean much it still gives an indication on the tightness of the timing window for the 3 of us who care :) lol

[rshadow8888]

there are some of us who are still playing on the avmiss version

so dang those 2 framers giving me a good.

[Tasselfoot]

unstuck because this really doesn't pertain anymore.

[jimerax]

/outdated

finally