So I went to church tonight.... [Archive]

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eastsideman09

10-8-2008, 10:21 PM

First time EVAR going on a Wednesday night, and the first time I've been since about 4th grade. Really not what I expected....

I didn't have to dress nice, there was PING-PONG and FOOSBALL, and they played real music. It was Christiany, and I don't consider myself "Christian", and I wasn't really feelin the music as much as others were, who were, for example, waving their arms in the air, pointing to the ceiling, and jumping in their overwhelming faith. Not a bad thing, but just something I wasn't as in to.

Afterwards, we watched a video that's in a series that I guess tries to clarify the Bible. This video was talking about getting into heaven and what it took to be a true Christian, etc....

Now, I didn't go to profess my Christianity. I, by no means, consider myself a Christian.... I think of myself as spiritual. I have my own beliefs, and I figured that going to church could possibly expand my horizons. It did. It made me think. I liked it. I liked it enough to share it with you guys :P

I guess I liked it really because the people there weren't judgemental or forceful. I really turned myself away from religion because of a personal experience years ago with people who were really just dicks about me not considering myself Christian and not going to church. It was a really good experience... not boring like I remembered church to be.

SO... uh, I guess.... uh.... What's church like for you guys? If you don't go, why don't you go?

UberMario

10-8-2008, 10:24 PM

It's a waste of my time.

EternaLStrifE

10-8-2008, 10:27 PM

Church for the youth changed alot, the churchs greed to draw attention to the public, especially the children, basically turned into competition of who can attract more people. And we all know how we do that, by making it pleasant, shorter sermons, more social time.

ryanisadouche

10-8-2008, 10:28 PM

Religion is the biggest scam ever

especially christianity

eastsideman09

10-8-2008, 10:29 PM

Oh, I think I should add that I didn't go on my own will. I was invited by a friend.

Religion is the biggest scam ever

especially christianity

Elaborate.

Quigly

10-8-2008, 10:31 PM

as much as others were, who were, for example, waving their arms in the air, pointing to the ceiling, and jumping in their overwhelming faith.

This is pretty much my reason. I have my own beliefs about God that are different from most people and personally I really don't like the Catholic Church. So going and seeing these people pour all their emotion into a religion that really isn't all as good as most people would believe to be just bugs me a bit. It's fine if those people want to get up and praise the Lord through dramatic means but it's just not for me.

NFD

10-8-2008, 10:38 PM

Last time I went, I ended up getting in trouble for calling a kid a 'dick'.

Sullyman2007

10-8-2008, 10:41 PM

Jokee

10-8-2008, 10:42 PM

Our definition of real music has to be very different. I don't think they'd play MY kind of real music in a church...

flipsta_lombax

10-8-2008, 10:42 PM

I forgot to go to church today because I napped. Jesus is upset with me. Oh lawd. =(

funmonkey54

10-8-2008, 10:44 PM

It sounds kind of similar to my church. But we don't jump or anything either.
We have football, a lesson, ping-pong, and a devotional. We don't sing except on Sundays. Also, we are of smaller size. We think that people will come when they are ready. We don't really force people to go or even push people in the neighborhood to go. It is more about walking people who are there through the walk of faith.

eastsideman09

10-8-2008, 10:48 PM

Ya okay religion is a 'scam'.

I haven't been to church since probably about a year ago. Not because I'm against it or anything, I'm pretty much just lazy. Horrible excuse, I know, but I went a lot more when I was younger. I even went to CCD. I can't remember what it stands for, but it was pretty much a bible study course you took each year you were in public school, but it was through our local church. Naturally at the time I hated it. Wednesdays were my least favorite day of the week just because of that. Looking back though I realize how important it was.

Of course this was back when why family was normal and everything, before my parents got divorced and everything went down the ****ter. I suppose that may have had something to do with it, but I doubt it. It wasn't a major impact on my life. They had been talking about it for years, so by the time it happened I was just like 'yeah okay'.

I think I can kind of relate to this. When I was young, I went every Sunday and hated it cuz I hated waking up early. And I stopped going when my parents divorced too. When my mom moved us to Rhode Island, we never got active in a church. When we moved back, it was like "yeah whatever" for everyone. My mom has started to go regularly on Saturdays now though...

Our definition of real music has to be very different. I don't think they'd play MY kind of real music in a church...

as in played instruments? guitar, drums, keyboard. not just hymns, and choir n stuff

ryanisadouche

10-8-2008, 10:49 PM

Christianity is essentially scare tactics, to generate revenue and keep people regulated.

What it comes down to is people being scared of dying, because its impossible to be absolutely certain what happens. Along comes Christianity, saying "YOUR GOING TO HELL WHEN YOU DIE!!". Oh f*ck. But wait, believe in God and you won't! What a bunch of sh*t.

Ask yourself this. What if somehow you KNEW FOR SURE, 100%, that there WAS a god, and he DID love you, but you were still going to hell regardless. Would you still want to be a christian? Obviously not, whats the point. You can't SEE him, he doesn't ACKNOWLEDGE you, there is literally no positive benefits. Christians try to fool themselves, but it's not about believing in God, or caring about him, it's about being scared of dying.

Meanwhile religion is bring in money out the ass, and people are getting dumber and less capable of thinking for themselves. Not to mention its USED TO PURSUADE PEOPLE TO FIGHT WARS! Christianity isn't so bad (there's been the holy crusades amongst other things), but what do you think is the reasoning behind suicide bomber attacks? They think they're DYING FOR THEIR GOD! S-T-U-P-I-D

I could rant about this forever but i tried to keep it short. People need to stop being sheep. baaaa

PS: I was a christian for the first 16 years of my life, till I really started questioning why I was, and what it meant to me. The whole illusion crumbles pretty fast when you really start to think about things. Of course the average Christian response is to immaturely ignore any logic, and blindly believe because they're scared to question their own faith. Wake up people.

flipsta_lombax

10-8-2008, 10:49 PM

At our evangel church, we have pool and a snack bar. I help my aunt sell so that the church can build an extension to the church. It'll be a community gym and stuff. =D

EDIT: Religious arguments make me rofl. It's funny how people can be such extremist when it comes to siding to their arguments.

dore

10-8-2008, 10:51 PM

Izzy

10-8-2008, 10:52 PM

What was it like, i have never been to a church before.

Sullyman2007

10-8-2008, 10:53 PM

At our evangel church, we have pool and a snack bar. I help my aunt sell so that the church can build an extension to the church. It'll be a community gym and stuff. =D

Hehe, that's cool.

Our church does have something like that, we have a youth shack. I went once a long time ago after Sunday mass. They have a few pool tables, some TV's with game systems, all around a huge family room type thing with a bunch of huge couches. All inside of a single portable.

BigBoss37

10-8-2008, 10:54 PM

used to go every sunday for years when I was a kid, the church I went to was really bad and was made for more adult type people. I eventually got out of it and now I am much happier.

eastsideman09

10-8-2008, 10:56 PM

Iamadouche

lololo

You'd probably laugh at something the video I watched explained. The people who tell others and believe that as long as you accept Jesus as your savior, you're going to heaven. As long as you say you're christian, you're in. Well, this dude on the video says that's wrong, and that you need to do more than just say it. Earn your way into heaven, not continue "sinning". Those "christians" are going to Hell, if the video is to be believed :P.

What was it like, i have never been to a church before.
It was actually pretty fun, for me at least, since I had a friend there, and I'm actually willing to expand my horizons on this sort of thing.

oh and dore wins

flipsta_lombax

10-8-2008, 10:58 PM

I'm Deist and I don't believe in following organized religion, but I'm glad for the existence of churches for experiences like yours. Even if you don't vehemently follow a religion there still is nothing wrong with a bunch of people gathering to become better people.

I really appreciate your opinion, dore. I really dislike the ones that paste a note in your face and say: "YUR WRONG, ADMIT IT."

Really, who knows if they are right anyway?

@ Sully: Oh! That's the extension we are trying to achieve. It'd be public so that everyone would enjoy it. And btw, the youth group in our church doesn't always seem interested to The Word. I just shake my head, lol.

dandandamdandan1111

10-8-2008, 11:06 PM

Okay, I just sinned. And it went everywhere. So what? What would that have to do with believing in Jesus or accepting Jesus. NOTHING! I'm not insulting any religion, but I'm just saying that you shouldn't have a set of rules or guidelines on how to live your life, or how to be a part of your religion. You don't really need to physically go to a place to worship, but rather mentally go to a place of worship. Church should be a place to gather, discuss, and make friends with people of your own religion, and not to tell you what not to do with your life. And so, I think that if you do believe in a god, dont go to church to hear stories about your god, but to discuss what you believe in.

ryanisadouche

10-8-2008, 11:09 PM

You'd probably laugh at something the video I watched explained. The people who tell others and believe that as long as you accept Jesus as your savior, you're going to heaven. As long as you say you're christian, you're in. Well, this dude on the video says that's wrong, and that you need to do more than just say it. Earn your way into heaven, not continue "sinning". Those "christians" are going to Hell, if the video is to be believed :P.

John 3:16-17,
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved!"

Oh i guess he's right and the bibles wrong then. But wait there's literally thousands of contradictions in the bible. hmm

Jokee

10-8-2008, 11:11 PM

I think I can kind of relate to this. When I was young, I went every Sunday and hated it cuz I hated waking up early. And I stopped going when my parents divorced too. When my mom moved us to Rhode Island, we never got active in a church. When we moved back, it was like "yeah whatever" for everyone. My mom has started to go regularly on Saturdays now though...

as in played instruments? guitar, drums, keyboard. not just hymns, and choir n stuff

Yeah, as in played instruments, guitar, bass, drum, violin and accordion (depending on the band).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y150Lm4kZ_M

Sullyman2007

10-8-2008, 11:13 PM

The bible can be interpreted so many different ways, many people even of the same religion have their own personal beliefs about specific passages, such as the one you just posted. No one can say if the bible is written wrong. No one can say if it is written right. You can chose to believe whatever you want, but do go shouting UR RONG to everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Also this thread wasn't even about that. It was about people who have/do attend church and their experience while/when attending church. Not how to interpret the bible.

dore

10-8-2008, 11:16 PM

ryanisadouche

10-8-2008, 11:16 PM

Just for fun, i googled "are you going to heaven"?

followed the first link "FOLLOW THESE 3 EASY STEPS TO GO TO HEAVEN!"

1) watch the free video right now
2) ask yourself if you think your going to heaven when you die!
3) pay $24.99 to get the dvd too share with your friends!!!!

Hmmm something tells me that it did not cost $24.99 to crank out that crappy little disc. Wait, does that mean people are PROFITING off of RELIGION?! Who would have thought!

edit at above: I'm not trying to just say YOUR WRONG to everyone, i'm encouraging doing some critical thinking for yourself if you happen to be religious. I know i personally never did, because i thought "If i'm questioning my own faith, doesn't that mean i don't fully believe? So now I'm going to hell?!"

It's a nice catch-22 that makes you never think about the "what if I'm wrong" scenario.

flipsta_lombax

10-8-2008, 11:18 PM

Trust me sully, when people wants to point out someone is wrong about what they believe in, they won't hesitate to prove you wrong.

And dandan, you are treating religion as if it is a government, lol!

EDIT: Seriously ryan, your arguments are very childish.

Sullyman2007

10-8-2008, 11:19 PM

That is nothing more than 21st century advertising. I doubt they are affiliated with any church in any way.

eastsideman09

10-8-2008, 11:21 PM

John 3:16-17,
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved!"

Oh i guess he's right and the bibles wrong then. But wait there's literally thousands of contradictions in the bible. hmm

I haven't even read the bible and I know that it's more than just the denotative meaning. The video went into more depth about it, and I'm sure the bible does too, but I'm not going to defend it since I've not read it, it's not a book I base my beliefs on, and I'm sure you don't give a **** either way.

In the case of contradiction and logic and blahblahblah.... In short, I believe God exists beyond logic- beyond what we can humanly comprehend. After our body dies, our spirit grows... we become a better being, our capacity of knowledge is greater, and our universal understanding expands. I basically see it like this: trying to make "sense" of God is like trying to fit a watermelon through a funnel.... trying to fit something so immense into such a small capacity of understanding.

I'm gonna stop now because before I even post it, I don't think you care.

MystictheHedgehog

10-8-2008, 11:22 PM

Ok Ryan, you don't think there are people who use religion as an excuse to make money? You're pretty close minded to think every single church is like that.

Personally, every church I've been to doesn't sit at the doors and not allow you to leave unless you sit there and give 10% of your income, which they happen to have a copy of on a sheet of paper with your name, address, social security number, how many times you've been to church in the past year, and how much you are supposed to give. Your supposed to tithe, yes. But it isn't forced. You'll hear a sermon about it every now and then yes, but that's it.

dore

10-8-2008, 11:25 PM

A lot of people confuse "church" with "what the Catholic church used to do and some branches of still do," because that happens to be the most convenient anti-Christian misinformation that they can spew.

EDIT Also ESM your interpretation is pretty close to mine lol

Gibson63

10-8-2008, 11:25 PM

religion is bull**** ,and its the biggest rip-off on the planet.

Ryan is 100 % correct.

ryanisadouche

10-8-2008, 11:26 PM

Just do yourself a little bit of research. Religion literally brings in BILLIONS of COMPLETELY, UN-TAXED DOLLARS each year. Billions. Put 2 and 2 together.

Sullyman2007

10-8-2008, 11:28 PM

Just do yourself a little bit of research. Religion literally brings in BILLIONS of COMPLETELY, UN-TAXED DOLLARS each year. Billions. Put 2 and 2 together.

Please link me to where you read that. Then I might consider thinking about considering the possibility that the pile of words you just laid upon this thread are anything close to remotely correct.

arrekusuof93

10-8-2008, 11:28 PM

Just do yourself a little bit of research. Religion literally brings in BILLIONS of COMPLETELY, UN-TAXED DOLLARS each year. Billions. Put 2 and 2 together.

Ryan, creating a generalization and applying it to all forms of religion is a very bad argument. Yes, some religious groups or churches are scams and the people behind them are looking for money. This, however, doesn't give you the right to declare every form and denomination of religion to be a scam.

dore

10-8-2008, 11:31 PM

for ryan (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=65553)

eastsideman09

10-8-2008, 11:32 PM

do yourself a little bit of research

i googled

research

Gigispackles

10-8-2008, 11:46 PM

I'm atheist; all there is to it. :razz:

Only problem I have is that my mom is very religious.
She even considers Pokemon and Bowser demonic!!

ryanisadouche

10-8-2008, 11:47 PM

http://blogs.theage.com.au/business/executivestyle/managementline/archives/brw2906p042-046.pdf

just a random link

Anyways, lets go over some fun fast facts quick.

(1) An UNKNOWN BUT LARGE amount of untaxed money is brought in by religion
(2) Wars have been fought with religion playing a large role in it. If God created us, why would he ever want us to kill each other?
(3) Nearly everyone religion states that OTHER RELIGIONS ARE WRONG. So which one is right? They can't all be. But logically this means the majority of everyone is wrong!

If you ignore everything else i right, read this. I challenge one person to answer me the following loophole.

Okay so Christianity states that God loves us all, and that we will go to heaven if we only choose to believe. In fact thats the ONLY way to go to heaven, we MUST believe.

So what if 3 year old child is killed in an accident? Having not yet reached an age where he is capable of making the decision to believe in God or not, does this mean he goes to hell? He spends 3 insignificant years on earth and now he's going to burn in hell for more then 100000000000000000000 years? Infinitys pretty long.

More realisticly, what about people born across the globe, in third-world countries? Millions of these people simply will not have the chance to ever be exposed to christanity. Its not part of their inherent culture, many people simply don't know what it is. This means they're all going to hell? I thought God loved them? He didn't even give them a choice! They simply were not born under circumstances where Christanity was ever exposed to them, so how should they know better? This doesn't make them bad people.

An interesting theory i've heard is that there is one God, that goes by many names. Jesus, Buddha, Allah, just different languages and interpretations. I personally still don't believe it, but at least now there's some logic going on.

Sullyman2007

10-8-2008, 11:49 PM

Wars have been fought with religion playing a large role in it. If God created us, why would he ever want us to kill each other?

You are one of the most ignorant people I have seen post on this website in a long time.

pokelda

10-8-2008, 11:50 PM

Talking about religion makes babies cry.

dore

10-8-2008, 11:56 PM

If you ignore everything else i right, read this. I challenge one person to answer me the following loophole.

Okay so Christianity states that God loves us all, and that we will go to heaven if we only choose to believe. In fact thats the ONLY way to go to heaven, we MUST believe.

So what if 3 year old child is killed in an accident? Having not yet reached an age where he is capable of making the decision to believe in God or not, does this mean he goes to hell? He spends 3 insignificant years on earth and now he's going to burn in hell for more then 100000000000000000000 years? Infinitys pretty long.

According to the Bible (I don't know the verse, but a Bible-pusher on campus quoted it from somewhere in a similar argument) children are not responsible for their own actions, that their souls are pure because they have not been tarnished by the outside world yet; therefore, children would go to heaven automatically. Until they become adult (not in the legal sense of the word, just as in aware enough to be responsible for their own actions) they will not be punished for what they have yet to do.

EDIT:
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

More realisticly, what about people born across the globe, in third-world countries? Millions of these people simply will not have the chance to ever be exposed to christanity. Its not part of their inherent culture, many people simply don't know what it is. This means they're all going to hell? I thought God loved them? He didn't even give them a choice! They simply were not born under circumstances where Christanity was ever exposed to them, so how should they know better? This doesn't make them bad people.

That is a tougher question, but that's also the premise behind missionary work (teaching as many "ignorant" people as possible). There are plenty of branches of Christianity and related religions that believe that good people who believe in God in some way, even if they are ignorant of the Bible and the word of Jesus, will still go to heaven because it's not their fault. Of course other branches vehemently believe that you're going straight to hell if you don't live by the Bible, but with terms as broad as "religion" or "Christianity" it's hard to make a generalization without finding some exceptions.

ryanisadouche

10-9-2008, 12:15 AM

You are one of the most ignorant people I have seen post on this website in a long time.

If your going to call me out, at least post SOME kind of reasoning.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html

there's a fun little video anyways, it doesn't really have to do with what my point was, but whatever.

@Dore: For me anyways, theres just too many discrepancies for it all too fit together properly. There seems to be some sort of absurd exception for every rule that doesn't quite fit.

"There are plenty of branches of Christianity and related religions that believe that good people who believe in God in some way, even if they are ignorant of the Bible and the word of Jesus, will still go to heaven because it's not their fault."

There's a few ways to interpret what you just said here, but the way i see it, it comes down to these absurd exceptions again.. Back to our third-world countries, with people who haven't been exposed to Jesus; What if their way of believing in God is to worship a statue in the center of their town? There are MANY passages of the bible, saying AGAIN and AGAIN you should not worship false idols. Well, these people have not heard of Jesus or the Bible, so they certainly can't be worshiping him, so wouldn't that make their statue a false idol? Yet they're still good people, and believe in the concept of a greater, almighty presence.

But i do see what your saying, and this relates to what i said in my last post, about there being "1 actual god" and people globally know him through their own personal names and forms. But thats a completely different argument, and Christians certainly don't agree with this.

championanwar

10-9-2008, 12:24 AM

There's a few ways to interpret what you just said here, but the way i see it, it comes down to these absurd exceptions again.. Back to our third-world countries, with people who haven't been exposed to Jesus; What if their way of believing in God is to worship a statue in the center of their town? There are MANY passages of the bible, saying AGAIN and AGAIN you should not worship false idols. Well, these people have not heard of Jesus or the Bible, so they certainly can't be worshiping him, so wouldn't that make their statue a false idol? Yet they're still good people, and believe in the concept of a greater, almighty presence.

The statue can be a symbol of the person they are worshiping.
One extra thing, why is only Christianity under the magnifying glass. If you say religion is a scam, why not bring all the other religions into it. It seems as if you are only finding "flaws" in the Christian, preferably Catholic Church.

x After Dawn x

10-9-2008, 12:25 AM

Christianity is essentially scare tactics, to generate revenue and keep people regulated.

i'm an idiot lol case closed

"Case closed."

ryanisadouche

10-9-2008, 12:33 AM

The statue can be a symbol of the person they are worshiping.
One extra thing, why is only Christianity under the magnifying glass. If you say religion is a scam, why not bring all the other religions into it. It seems as if you are only finding "flaws" in the Christian, preferably Catholic Church.

Yes but the statue can't specifically be a symbol of Jesus if they don't KNOW who jesus is.

I'm not specifying any other religions because I don't know anything about them...I was a Christian and I've read the bible, so at least i know what I'm talking about. I can't specifically single out other religions, cause i don't know anything about them. With that being said, i believe most religions are manipulative and bullsh*t.

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 12:53 AM

Oh god would me posting in this thread destroying everything be bad considering this will probably be locked within the hour?

I mean I could but it seems expected of me somehow and I don't like to be predictable.

EAGAMES

10-9-2008, 12:54 AM

Yes but the statue can't specifically be a symbol of Jesus if they don't KNOW who jesus is.

I'm not specifying any other religions because I don't know anything about them...I was a Christian and I've read the bible, so at least i know what I'm talking about. I can't specifically single out other religions, cause i don't know anything about them. With that being said, i believe most religions are manipulative and bullsh*t.
John 3:16-17,
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved!"

Oh i guess he's right and the bibles wrong then. But wait there's literally thousands of contradictions in the bible. hmm
You know of certain things, but you don't know completely what you're talking about. I know this because the bible never contradicts itself. Enlighten yourself a bit more on what is supposedly contradicting itself, and don't start religion drama in the forums since it never goes well.

Also, yes, most religions are as you describe them. In case if you're looking for one that isn't, base your critizisms on their actions (if they aply what they preach), their beliefs (make sure you fully understand them. If something is unclear, ask!), and if everything they say comes from the bible (ask them to use the bible to answer everthing). Don't let anyone tell you what's the right one, you decide. Have fun!

zomg I put my two cents in this thread. D:

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 12:57 AM

I know this because the bible never contradicts itself.

Okay i seriously can't let this pass without RAGING, and i might submit this to fstdt for the hell of it

seriously google man

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

ryanisadouche

10-9-2008, 01:00 AM

You know of certain things, but you don't know completely what you're talking about. I know this because the bible never contradicts itself. Enlighten yourself a bit more on what is supposedly contradicting itself

Please please please please please type the words "contradictions in the bible" in your google searchbar. I would give links but there's way to many to choose from. I mean just by cracking open any random book in the bible and reading for a bit i guarantee you can find some of your own.

edit - ninja'd

also grandia, please destroy this thread :)

Izzy

10-9-2008, 01:03 AM

Just do yourself a little bit of research. Religion literally brings in BILLIONS of COMPLETELY, UN-TAXED DOLLARS each year. Billions. Put 2 and 2 together.

There also thousands of religion related deaths every year, and those billions come from churchs ripping people off in the name of "god". But i guess people who work at churches have to make a living to.

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 01:05 AM

There also thousands of religion related deaths every year.

I'd go with tens of thousands if not hundreds actually.

UberMario

10-9-2008, 01:09 AM

guys, I already solved this. It's a waste of time.

Afrombean

10-9-2008, 01:23 AM

I notice someone linked to the logical fallacies thread above.

You do realize that most of those fallacies listed are commonly applied to religious beliefs, right? Even the examples given explicitly mention religious beliefs in relation to common occurrences of those logical fallacies.

People debating religion on the ideas that a religion ISN'T FALSE have already lost as this is not possible. However, the flipside here is that due to the nature of religion, they also by definition are impossible to logically prove false, because a "God moves in mysterious ways" can be used to counter every single thing about religion that doesn't make sense, and that is, at the same time, both technically inadmissable in a true debate and also unfalsifiable by the defense.

In the end, all there is to it is that debate about truth of religion is impossible. Religion isn't based on logic and doesn't require a bit of it; it's all faith with little to no reasonable "proof". Religions are quite simply impossible to debate, so anyone taking a stance in a debate other than neutrality has already lost.

Religious factuality aside, people have already nailed the topic pretty well. Religion leads to fighting, sometimes even war. Even now, the fact that we have military in the Middle East is due to the beliefs of certain Muslim sects in the region. Religious beliefs have been used as a means of destruction far too often in the past, and even today it can still rip apart those who would otherwise be kind to one another. It can do good, it is true, but that is far outstretched by the corruption, I would say. I have semi-personal experience with the sort of "brainwashing" that can occur within Christian subcommunities; the idea pushed being that a life without absolute faith, even a good natured one, will lead to eternal damnation, and this alone brings people in in droves. It's a shame too, because faith on its own isn't necessarily bad, it's just the groupthink that comes from it sometimes. I would say that the problem with religion isn't the logical leaps of faith but rather the organized nature of it. Believe in whatever god you choose (or not), just don't get sucked into groupthink.

Izzy

10-9-2008, 01:36 AM

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/513/1206580465858ms5.gif

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 01:42 AM

In the end, all there is to it is that debate about truth of religion is impossible. Religion isn't based on logic and doesn't require a bit of it; it's all faith with little to no reasonable "proof". Religions are quite simply impossible to debate, so anyone taking a stance in a debate other than neutrality has already lost.

You're partially wrong.

If they're arguing about the correctness of a certain religion yes. If they're arguing about the factuality of religion than the person saying it is false is the winner, it's just futile argument after that.

If it's a debate about the nature of religion (ie. is it good or bad, does it help the world or is it a liability, is it based on fear and indoctrination or a free will belief system) then legitimate debate can be had

iceefudgesickle

10-9-2008, 02:08 AM

Christianity isn't so bad (there's been the holy crusades amongst other things), but what do you think is the reasoning behind suicide bomber attacks? They think they're DYING FOR THEIR GOD! S-T-U-P-I-D

When was there a suicide bomber for Christianity? You realize that the terrorists in the Middle East are islamic extremists, right?

I don't quite understand how you can with all good conscience say "Religion is a scam, especially Christianity", when Scientology exists.

Anyways, there isn't any solid evidence, any conclusive yes-or-no truth out there that can confirm whether Christianity is true or not, but the same can be said about everything that tries to explain the existence of life, such as evolution.

There is evidence against evolution and evidence for it. Same with Christianity. The problem is that people always ignore the evidence on the other side because with topics such as politics and religion, people don't like to turn from their opinions.

I'm Christian because it gives me something to hope for in my life, and because it just seems like it was the way it happened... like how the Bible fits so perfectly together and all that, it doesn't seem like humans could fake their way through something like the Bible. It also makes sense to me - just saying that some explosion happened and that created the planets makes even less sense then that a God showed up out of nothing and created everything.

Anyways, to the TC, I'm glad your broadening your horizons by going to church and stuff like that. You probably actually went to a youth group, which isn't really a real church service, it's just a place to hang out and learn a bit about Christianity but mostly just to socialize in a church environment or something.

Izzy

10-9-2008, 02:14 AM

And do you believe that because that's all you have ever been taught in bible class or because you came to your own conclusions.

iceefudgesickle

10-9-2008, 02:17 AM

You'd probably laugh at something the video I watched explained. The people who tell others and believe that as long as you accept Jesus as your savior, you're going to heaven. As long as you say you're christian, you're in. Well, this dude on the video says that's wrong, and that you need to do more than just say it. Earn your way into heaven, not continue "sinning". Those "christians" are going to Hell, if the video is to be believed :P.

Um, sounds like your church got the facts wrong. The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." That passage says we are saved only through God's grace and not by what we do here on Earth.

Izzy

10-9-2008, 02:19 AM

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7760/1223533758951da7.jpg

Kynosaur

10-9-2008, 02:21 AM

suicide bomber attacks

Just to remind you, this thread is about Christianity. Actually not even that, it's simply about church.

I was encouraged, but not forced, to go to church when I was very young. I went along with it, it was ok, I had friends there, I believed in God etc etc, but that all stopped for some reason. I never stopped having a smidgeon of faith in God but it didn't go anywhere. Then my mum suggested we started going again, but I didn't enjoy it. We moved to a different church which was ok for a bit, but I didn't really like it there either. She still goes to this day, but I took well over a year to find a church that was suited to my views and practices.

To sum it all up, not every Christian is the best example of Christianity.

Xx{Midnight}xX

10-9-2008, 02:21 AM

I for one don't believe in God period. But to those whom do I respect that you are going along with your lives as you wish to do so. Before I stop bealieveing I went to a lutheren church and it was moderatly entertaining. We have one heck of a piano player and choior that I respect dearly because I grew up knowing a lot of them. Then my Granda would take us out for lunch and then I would go home.

BTW: We need more threads to flow like this one with these kind of questions.

iceefudgesickle

10-9-2008, 02:29 AM

But you see Izzy, that diagram only shows the different denominations of churches; the principle of Occam's Razor is that the explanation of a phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible. I don't see how the different kind of denominations make any kind of impact on the explanation of how God created the universe.

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 02:29 AM

Anyways, there isn't any solid evidence, any conclusive yes-or-no truth out there that can confirm whether Christianity is true or not, but the same can be said about everything that tries to explain the existence of life, such as evolution.

Did you just say there's no solid evidence for evolution?

BOOKS? DO YOU READ THEM?

Kynosaur

10-9-2008, 03:21 AM

Did you just say there's no solid evidence for evolution?

BOOKS? DO YOU READ THEM?

BOOKS? DO YOU BELIEVE THEM?

Are you saying you will believe every word you read in a book, a newspaper, an article posted on the internet, etc. But if the Bible says it, you immediately pounce and start questioning it?

championanwar

10-9-2008, 04:45 AM

It's everyones opinion. Nobody can prove anything.
Evolution is a theory. It is your choice whether you believe it or not.

Professor Raine

10-9-2008, 07:24 AM

I remember going to Church so I can have a hot meal and sleep under a roof o wait I was homeless back then before my ******ory. :<
I met some really nice Jews that whoop my ass at Battleship though. >>;

Afrobean

10-9-2008, 07:53 AM

You're partially wrong.

If they're arguing about the correctness of a certain religion yes. If they're arguing about the factuality of religion than the person saying it is false is the winner, it's just futile argument after that.

If it's a debate about the nature of religion (ie. is it good or bad, does it help the world or is it a liability, is it based on fear and indoctrination or a free will belief system) then legitimate debate can be had
That's right, but take a look at what most of these folks are saying. They're not debating the value or effect of religion in society, they're going "omg god is a lie lol" and "wtf no way gtfo ***".

_______________________

When was there a suicide bomber for Christianity? You realize that the terrorists in the Middle East are islamic extremists, right? Christians have done plenty of terrible things. Don't pretend that they didn't because I'm sure a quick search of things like "inquisition" or "crusade" could set you straight, to say nothing of modern atrocities like child molestation.

I don't quite understand how you can with all good conscience say "Religion is a scam, especially Christianity", when Scientology exists.
What does this mean? Scientology is perhaps the scammiest of all religions, but all organized religion has a bit of the features which one might attribute to being a scam. Things like being promised a prize of some kind for giving the organization a good or service. Things like asking for money and not giving any good or service in return. Another thing that people are easily displeased over is that if this life isn't the real life, then why have value in it, and thus, why should a person feel obligated to pay for religious materials or give money to religious organizations.

Anyways, there isn't any solid evidence, any conclusive yes-or-no truth out there that can confirm whether Christianity is true or not, but the same can be said about everything that tries to explain the existence of life, such as evolution. No. Science has verified that evolution is real to as much degree as anything such as that can be considered proven. For example, by similar rights, gravity and basic physical laws are essentially proven, yet not technically.

In other words, on the question of evolution, there is an answer, and that answer is "yes". This alone doesn't mean religion is false, it just means that you may need to change interpretations to accommodate fact into your belief system.

There is evidence against evolution and evidence for it.
I am really considering just calling you stupid at this point. To hear you say that really makes me not even want to show a bit of respect towards you. Please, O mighty knower of knowings, tell me this "evidence" against evolution.

Same with Christianity.
Please, point me to something that is evidence that the fantastical elements appearing in the Christian bible are fact. And also, take notice that you cannot use the Bible itself as evidence of the Bible's proof. Not only would that be monumentally stupid, but that again is one of the fallacies identified in the link from earlier in the thread.

The problem is that people always ignore the evidence on the other side because with topics such as politics and religion, people don't like to turn from their opinions.
No, people have a fundamental problem with people not looking at things logically and basing their actions on feelings that often go against logic.

I'm Christian because it gives me something to hope for in my life, and because it just seems like it was the way it happened
Having hope doesn't make something true. This is a logical fallacy, and in fact, this fallacy is detailed in the thread linked to earlier in this thread.

... like how the Bible fits so perfectly together and all that, it doesn't seem like humans could fake their way through something like the Bible.
You are seriously underestimating human creativity. There are thousands of years of Star Wars expanded universe history. It is most definitely all fictional. However, based on the concept that because it would be difficult to "fake", does that mean it must be true?

It also makes sense to me - just saying that some explosion happened and that created the planets makes even less sense then that a God showed up out of nothing and created everything. It's not that matter just appeared out of nowhere and exploded and "created planets". Furthermore, if you can think it is reasonable to believe God has simply always existed, why can't you also think it reasonable to believe that the matter in the Universe has also simply always existed? You think it is more reasonable to believe God magicked the matter out of "thin air"?

Both sides of this make the assumption that it is possible for something to have always existed. One side identifies this as matter, and matter is something which is known to be constant in our everyday life. The other side identifies God, an entity which is not even known to truly exist, and if he is real, he most certainly exists on some other plain of reality that is unmeasurable from this plain.

________________

BOOKS? DO YOU BELIEVE THEM?

Are you saying you will believe every word you read in a book, a newspaper, an article posted on the internet, etc. But if the Bible says it, you immediately pounce and start questioning it?
The scientific community is entirely more likely to be truthful than a book compiled of ancient Jewish writings and more "modern" Christian writings of only about 2000 years old. Furthermore, the authors of the Bible are largely unknown, while scientific principles are put forth in respected publications and the sources are clearly identified.

_________________

Evolution is a theory. It is your choice whether you believe it or not.
It is a theory like special relativity is a theory.

Some of you guys don't understand the difference between a simple theory and a scientific one. Please, you guys, read the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory) and stop proving your ignorance. Here's a short section that especially relates to this as I am referring to it:

"For the scientist, "theory" is not in any way an antonym of "fact". For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and the general theory of relativity."

robertsona

10-9-2008, 08:11 AM

LMFAO

DossarLX ODI

10-9-2008, 08:17 AM

Well, heaven is said to be an immaterial world. But I don't think people go to heaven or hell when they die, they just rot and time goes on. (Although that sounds harsh, that's the reality of it.)

Plus, I think religion is something that should have never been invented because earlier at the time of Martin Luther, the Pope would sell indulgences that would "make people go to heaven." But obviously Martin Luther knew this was ridiculous and had to rebel with his 95 theses. The fact that the church was dishonestly trying to convince people to pay money for something that didn't even do anything shows that religion is really useless (in my opinion.)

And another thing, religions also caused very horrible events (like the Holocaust for example.) Since the Nazis believe they would purify their religion by annihilating all Jewish people on site, that excuse caused the death of a LOT of innocent people. Plus, even if a Jew did kill the christian god, do you think ALL Jews did that?

EAGAMES

10-9-2008, 08:24 AM

Okay i seriously can't let this pass without RAGING, and i might submit this to fstdt for the hell of it

seriously google man

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
Please, I'm not trying to boast, but I study the bible from my own part, and I can safely say that it does not contradict itself. Also, you're link says,
IMPORTANT: Please keep in mind that by "inconsistencies" I do not necessarily mean "contradictions."
The bible is consistent with it's meaning, it's just being interpreted wrong. You have to take into account which profet wrote what, when, and to whom the message was directed, and why it was directed to them. Lets take for example this:

GE 2:15-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Genesis+2:15-17), 3:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Genesis+3:4-6) It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Hebrews+5:13-14) It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

Genesis never says that being able to tell good from evil is bad. Simply, Jehovah (God) put boundaries to the first human couple (I forget why).

Acts referrs to one being able to tell what's good and bad. Luke wrote this in Rome (31 B.C. - 61 C.E.), in order to continue the history of primitive christian faith in order to have the fundamentels for a congregations.

You guys don't dig deep at all. Just because you're against religions, doesn't mean you should be against the bible. Just because you're mad the bible doesn't mean you should read everything that talks against it and automatically accept it. Get your facts straight first.

Sorry, but that site is wrong. I see multiple of texts that are implied the wrong way. There are some that I can't say off the top of my head what they meant, which means researching them. I just used the one above as an example. Once again, investigate!

dore

10-9-2008, 08:33 AM

yeah that site was pretty ****ty lol

Somebody has very biased critical reading skills.

kirjautunut

10-9-2008, 08:36 AM

Everyone of you can see the sky above. If you are Christian, it's not bad. Everyone does what feels best. Christianity gives hope for some people, and they don't blame their selfs for the things they may have wrong. Someones doesn't believe in nothing, someones wants to be Christian, someones wants to believe in evolution, someones wants to destroy a whole world. What's the difference except that who wants to destroy a whole world? If people wants, then they believe. That's their own opinion and they can keep them for their selfs, it's different thing if guys wants to talk about it.
My opinion is more philosophical, than this Christian thing. But i still, there is nothing wrong in that. People doens't change that much if they are Christians or not.

Kynosaur

10-9-2008, 08:38 AM

Simply, Jehovah (God) put boundaries to the first human couple (I forget why).

Because they did the one thing He told them not to do. Therefore mankind lost direct "access" to God, which is why people nowadays find it so easy to dismiss the possibility of the existence of some higher being.

EAGAMES

10-9-2008, 08:43 AM

yeah that site was pretty ****ty lol

Somebody has very biased critical reading skills.
Hey baby! <3

Because they did the one thing He told them not to do. Therefore mankind lost direct "access" to God, which is why people nowadays find it so easy to dismiss the possibility of the existence of some higher being.
No, I forget why he put boundaries to the human couple, but you're right. I'll find out later just in case. *Takes shower.*

Kynosaur

10-9-2008, 08:46 AM

The scientific community is entirely more likely to be truthful than a book compiled of ancient Jewish writings and more "modern" Christian writings of only about 2000 years old.

It is entirely more likely for someone to compile, print and bind a dictionary than for a print shop to explode and for all the contents to fall back to earth as a printed, bound dictionary.

It is entirely more likely for someone to construct an orrery than for all the model planets, gears and motors to fly together and make a working orrery by themselves.

It is entirely more likely for a higher being to create the universe than for a spontaneous explosion of gases to cause everything and everyone to suddenly come into existence by itself.

No, I forget why he put boundaries to the human couple

That's what I was talking about.

kid_merkury

10-9-2008, 08:47 AM

FaulkApsargs

10-9-2008, 09:13 AM

Afrobean

10-9-2008, 09:31 AM

Because they did the one thing He told them not to do. Therefore mankind lost direct "access" to God, which is why people nowadays find it so easy to dismiss the possibility of the existence of some higher being.
The world as it is causes these things to be illogical. It's not our fault if your god made the universe in such a way that a person thinking with only logic would come to believe that he doesn't exist.

It is entirely more likely for someone to compile, print and bind a dictionary than for a print shop to explode and for all the contents to fall back to earth as a printed, bound dictionary.
Don't try that **** on me. Regardless of the complications of things, the fact is that it exists. We know it exists, because here we are. Therefore, the small probability that would result in this naturally is irrelevant.

For example, a person might have a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of winning the lottery. But if you meet a person and they say "I won the lottery look at how much money I won", you can't say "NO YOU DIDN'T, DON'T YOU KNOW HOW UNLIKELY THAT IS?!"

It is entirely more likely for a higher being to create the universe than for a spontaneous explosion of gases to cause everything and everyone to suddenly come into existence by itself.
It's not that there was an explosion and matter came into existence from nowhere. The idea is that all the matter of the Universe was once contained in an intensely small point. Something triggered an expansion (this is where you godfreaks can fill in your own answer, because we really don't know), and all of the matter spread out, wherein elements and compounds showed themselves. Over time, a very very long period of time, on a tiny little insignificant speck rock in an insignificant solar system in an insignificant galaxy, the elements fell into line and something happened (hi godfreaks) in just the right way and simple single cell organisms developed. These single celled life forms lived simply for a long period of time until they somehow (hi godfreaks) developed into multi-cellular organisms. Microevolution leads to macroevolution, eventually these orgasnisms reached outside the microscopic world. Over time, many different plants and animals branched off over a very long period of time. After a very long time, the animal life became so developed that they came up with what is now recognized as intelligence, potentially through microevolution thanks to differences in diet. Over time, these intelligent animals developed culture and standardized language.

So we are a success in this. But we are but a single instance of such a chance occurrence. Yes the chances of this success may be incredibly minimal, so by these same rights, there must certainly be failures across the Universe. In fact, we can look to our own solar system and see planets like ours who failed to develop life, even in the case of Mars that was potentially favorable to the process at one point. It is even potentially possible that the success we developed may be unique across the entire Universe.

ps again let me point out that I don't have a problem with beliefs and such as that. I only have a problem with people who deny SCIENCE. And FaulkApsargs, go ahead and elaborate- I'm always interested to hear more about holes in science where a Creator can fit in, even if I don't even believe in it myself.

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 09:35 AM

Please, I'm not trying to boast, but I study the bible from my own part, and I can safely say that it does not contradict itself. Also, you're link says,

The bible is consistent with it's meaning, it's just being interpreted wrong. You have to take into account which profet wrote what, when, and to whom the message was directed, and why it was directed to them. Lets take for example this:

GE 2:15-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Genesis+2:15-17), 3:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Genesis+3:4-6) It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Hebrews+5:13-14) It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

Genesis never says that being able to tell good from evil is bad. Simply, Jehovah (God) put boundaries to the first human couple (I forget why).

Acts referrs to one being able to tell what's good and bad. Luke wrote this in Rome (31 B.C. - 61 C.E.), in order to continue the history of primitive christian faith in order to have the fundamentels for a congregations.

You guys don't dig deep at all. Just because you're against religions, doesn't mean you should be against the bible. Just because you're mad the bible doesn't mean you should read everything that talks against it and automatically accept it. Get your facts straight first.

Sorry, but that site is wrong. I see multiple of texts that are implied the wrong way. There are some that I can't say off the top of my head what they meant, which means researching them. I just used the one above as an example. Once again, investigate!

your one poor example (once again dying because eating fruit of knowledge = inconsistent with other verses)

How about actual verses that say contradicting things?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

Afrobean

10-9-2008, 09:40 AM

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 09:45 AM

I don't have a problem with those "continuity errors"...

The book was written by many different people over a period of a very long time. Shoddy worksmanship on their parts, but I'm sure that's why most of those contradictions exist. I mean, hell, the writers of the New Testament couldn't even match the mood of the Old Testament. Not very skilled writers.

Continuity errors in a book that claims it's divinely inspired would definitely worry me if I was basing my life off of it.

Plus I was responding to "THE BIBLE HAS NO CONTRADICTIONS I KNOW I'VE STUDIED THE BIBLE MYSELF"

Afrobean

10-9-2008, 09:49 AM

Yeah, sorry, I look at the book in the same way I look at The Odyssey, The Iliad, or... um... Beowulf.

8)

MalReynolds

10-9-2008, 09:50 AM

I have a very simple belief system:

I don't worry myself about God. I worry about people. It's my belief that humanity, as a collective, is pretty dumb. Individuals have the capability of being smart, but mob rule is prevelent. I trust people only to make bad decisions or decisions that suit them the best. The same is true of me -- I think if myself as charitable, but I do go out of my way to help people because it makes me feel good.

In short, everyone is dumb except me because I recognize how dumb everyone is and everyone will inevitably make the wrong decision and humanity is kind of not worth fighting for.

I was chatting with a friend last night. She asked me why I was so paranoid.

I said, "Because nothing matters but the moment, and when you stop having moments... when you stop, you stop. In 100 years, people won't remember me or care about me or you or us, but it helps me deal with everything, the collapsing nature of life, if I believe the world is out to get me. Helps me feel special, because in 100 years... Won't feel so great anymore."

And then she said, "Unless you buy into eternal recurrence."

But my point stands.

AS FOR GOING TO CHURCH!

When dad left mom, she found God for about 3 weeks. I didn't dislike going, but it didn't really do anything for me. I used to go with my grandmother, as well, but I found all the kids there to be really creepy in a Village of the Damned kind of way.

FaulkApsargs

10-9-2008, 10:39 AM

Alright, then.

First, here's a link to Hawking's lecture on the beginning of time, because there is no way I can explain his theory as well as him.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/lindex.html

But, for those of you too lazy to read it, I will attempt to summarize. First of all, Hawking suggests that the 2nd law of thermodynamics (disorder always increases with time) is evidence enough that the universe has not always existed, because if it had, everything would be MUCH more chaotic than it is, and there would be no way that our little planet would be able to sit in its orbit long enough to bring human life to the point it's at now. He also says that in an everlasting universe, everything would be the same temperature, and every line of sight would end on the surface of a star, making the night sky as bright as the sun. So, we can clearly see that the universe had to have a beginning and is, in fact, relatively young. But how did the universe begin? Well, Hawking says it was with a singularity, or "The Big Bang." It's been observed that galaxies are steadily moving apart, and if we plot their separation as a function of time, we can see that at one point in time, all the matter of the universe was condensed into one little point, which is a singularity. He says that the laws of physics break down in a singularity (which I'm not sure how he knows that) and because of this, we'll never know anything about anything before the singularity, if anything existed at all. So, the singularity was the beginning of time. At this point, we can refer to the 1st law of thermodynamics, which states that energy cannot be destroyed or created, and wonder where the MASSIVE amount of energy in our universe came from if the universe is not eternal. Energy cannot be created, so really, where did it come from? This is one hole in science where some argue that a "god" could fit in. Also, we all know that the odds of everything randomly falling into place for Earth to exist the way it does are terribly low, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen over time. However, we know the universe is relatively young, and that only makes the odds that much lower.

I think the scientific evidence for intelligent design is too convincing to ignore, but that's just my opinion. Oh, and I hope that all made enough sense.

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 10:45 AM

[quote]I think the scientific evidence for intelligent design is too convincing to ignore, but that's just my opinion. Oh, and I hope that all made enough sense.

While most of your evidence relies on a god of the gaps mentality (eg. We don't know yet how it happened so goddidit, which has no factual or logical basis whatsoever) and I take intellectual offense to that. This seems to be a discussion about a personal christian god, not an ambiguous eternal force.

Izzy

10-9-2008, 11:17 AM

Evolution is close to scientific fact as gravity. Before you make the comments that it isn't i suggest you go learn what evolution is. Which is what a theory is.

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 11:22 AM

Also am I the only one who finds it odd that the universe has to have a creator but god just can exist all over the place uncaused defying supposed creationist logic because they've built an invincible imaginary friend?

Izzy

10-9-2008, 11:25 AM

FaulkApsargs

10-9-2008, 11:32 AM

[QUOTE=FaulkApsargs;2834196]

While most of your evidence relies on a god of the gaps mentality (eg. We don't know yet how it happened so goddidit, which has no factual or logical basis whatsoever) and I take intellectual offense to that. This seems to be a discussion about a personal christian god, not an ambiguous eternal force.

There is somewhat of a logical basis, though, because, according to modern science, the laws of thermodynamics can't be broken.

Please, don't take offense and don't be hostile. I never understood why people always get so heated over debates of the such. Let's all keep it chill. =)

And yeah, the thread seems to be about Christianity, but someone asked me to elaborate, so I did.

Grandiagod

10-9-2008, 11:36 AM

There is somewhat of a logical basis, though, because, according to modern science, the laws of thermodynamics can't be broken.

if that's the basis of the argument, inventing a force that can break the laws of thermodynamics isn't how you go about solving the problem. If you could scientifically explain this force, or at least provide evidence to it's existence beyond it being an unsupported option in the arsenal of universe theories then it would have something of a platform to stand on. However right now it's essentially "We don't know how this can happen, so something above the laws of the universe had to make it happen." which isn't a terrible thought, but it's not supported by any evidence so it's not a good debate point.

Necros140606

10-9-2008, 11:47 AM

SO... uh, I guess.... uh.... What's church like for you guys? If you don't go, why don't you go?

do not want to read the entire thread so i'll just say that church is like god's shop. you go in there, and in exchange of your time and support, your "sins" are forgiven and your soul will be saved. now, look at those modern churches. they all try to look colored and shiny, with music, games, and such things. isn't this another merchandise? then look at the churches back in the middle ages. they were obscure, dark and squallid, since they didn't need people to choose them. people were forced in them by common sense and culture. of course, now that they can no longer force religion down your throat, they will try to appear as an happy, welcoming family. that's merely the result of a changement in the world, it's not like they do that because they want you to be happy. of all power installments of all time, church has done some of the most dreadful atrocities ever. and killed more people, directly and indirectly, than nazism did. however, people still think it's okay to forget about the past and they changed and blabla. then let's forget about the millions people killed by nazism and let's welcome them in our parliaments!!!! church is not the word of god (i don't think there's any god either but that's another story). bible is a myth book given for golden true. it's all so absurd than i can't picture myelf walking in a church even in the next ten billion years, just how i wouldn't picture myself being a nazi.

who_cares973

10-9-2008, 11:54 AM

i went to church a couple months ago

and apparently god stopped communism

also

Necros140606

10-9-2008, 12:24 PM

i went to church a couple months ago

and apparently god stopped communism

....

devonin

10-9-2008, 12:25 PM

I'm torn between taking the time and effort involved in quoting about 30 posts in this thread and responding to all of them, or just locking this thread as ridiculous.

Oh wait, it's in CC...

robertsona

10-9-2008, 12:26 PM

so does that mean neither

devonin

10-9-2008, 12:27 PM

Well, I was going to lock it, and then I was like "But a bunch of people are going to be whiners about it if I do"

FaulkApsargs

10-9-2008, 12:38 PM

if that's the basis of the argument, inventing a force that can break the laws of thermodynamics isn't how you go about solving the problem. If you could scientifically explain this force, or at least provide evidence to it's existence beyond it being an unsupported option in the arsenal of universe theories then it would have something of a platform to stand on. However right now it's essentially "We don't know how this can happen, so something above the laws of the universe had to make it happen." which isn't a terrible thought, but it's not supported by any evidence so it's not a good debate point.

Well, it's universally agreed upon by historians that Jesus existed. The problem people have is in the way the records of his miracles (and the resurrection) are translated or interpreted. So, one could (and should if you want to be completely objective) use the historicity of the Bible for evidence (there is a HUGE 7 volume book that explains all the proof for the Bible that I could point you to, if you're interested). I'm not saying that I do, but one could.

And, if something does exist that breaks the laws of science, science won't be able to explain it. So, I think it's a perfectly fine topic of debate.

robertsona

10-9-2008, 12:39 PM

Who cares really?
I don't exactly see the point of leaving this thread open. It will probably degenerate into religion babble like "ATHIEST SUCK" "NO U" but I guess you can just leave it open for now until it does that. If it doesn't do that, I'll be surprised.
In a way it kind of already has.
If you're forced to lock it, I just say ignore the whiners, who cares about them.
EDIT: To Devonin's post, obviously.
EDIT2: I guess people might be pissed off at me for posting this but boo-hoo screw you.

MalReynolds

10-9-2008, 12:44 PM

Sometimes I like praying because I like thinking that someone is listening to my problems but choosing to ignore them because it's easier than just having no one to talk to and having my problems ignored anyway.

Xx{Midnight}xX

10-9-2008, 12:44 PM

Woah wait isn't this supposed to be about experiences sitting through church and not how to explain wheather the bible or evolution is correct?

MalReynolds

10-9-2008, 12:44 PM

craaaawwwwwllllliiinnnnng in my skiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnn

CensorBar

10-9-2008, 12:49 PM

robertsona

10-9-2008, 12:51 PM

[B]"Doesnt the Big Band Theory Disprove the Genesis account of Creation?
Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Bo, they cause chaos. How could a big bang produce apple trees, a rose, sunsets, the nose, and mouth? There is obviously creation involved. Evolutionists seem to me like theyre purposefully ignoring all the evidence that points towards it, like a detective who see's all the evidence for a murder yet still calls it a suicide.

hahahahahahaha what
first, type in normal color, its a total bitch to see.
second wtf this doesn't make any sense.
Like...seriously?
EDIT: also it's big bang
EDIT2: also what evidence is there that some dude was like "dude im gonna create the universe and **** now."

MalReynolds

10-9-2008, 01:02 PM

thessssssssseeeeeee woundsssssssss they willllllll not healllllllllll

Izzy

10-9-2008, 01:22 PM

"Doesnt the Big Band Theory Disprove the Genesis account of Creation?
Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Bo, they cause chaos. How could a big bang produce apple trees, a rose, sunsets, the nose, and mouth? There is obviously creation involved. Evolutionists seem to me like theyre purposefully ignoring all the evidence that points towards it, like a detective who see's all the evidence for a murder yet still calls it a suicide.

A play on words does not get anyone anywhere.

Also i am pretty sure the big bang didn't produce order, it would have produced mass chaos and disorder.

who_cares973

10-9-2008, 01:29 PM

"Doesnt the Big Band Theory Disprove the Genesis account of Creation?
Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? no, they cause chaos. How could a big bang produce apple trees, a rose, sunsets, the nose, and mouth? There is obviously creation involved. Evolutionists seem to me like theyre purposefully ignoring all the evidence that points towards it, like a detective who see's all the evidence for a murder yet still calls it a suicide.

wait, are you saying evolution is wrong

Feeeeeear is hooooooooow i fallllllllllllllllllllllllll

NeONKIDPrincess

10-9-2008, 01:36 PM

I would recommended joining scientology mockingly, but I'm scared of getting fair gamed.

devonin

10-9-2008, 01:37 PM

So I guess instead, you get the gigantic response of doom.
Ask yourself this. What if somehow you KNEW FOR SURE, 100%, that there WAS a god, and he DID love you, but you were still going to hell regardless. That is a meaningless question within the bounds of christianity, because nobody "is going to hell regardless"

but it's not about believing in God, or caring about him, it's about being scared of dying.It's about living your life on Earth according to the guidelines set down by the creator of that earth. You just aren't a believer, so you don't believe. Your misunderstanding is poor grounds to base an arguement on.

Not to mention its USED TO PURSUADE PEOPLE TO FIGHT WARS! So are a whole host of things that you do (presumably) believe in. Democracy, economy, there've been wars fought over all kinds of things. Just because religion has historically been one of the big ones doesn't automatically make it bad and wrong, just misapplied.

but what do you think is the reasoning behind suicide bomber attacks? They think they're DYING FOR THEIR GOD! S-T-U-P-I-DThey think that their religion compels them to defend their faith in the face of a concerted attack against followers of their religion. They also think that martyrdom is a perfectly good way to end ones life, since they, like many other followers of the Judeo-Christian traditions, view life as the test of their soul before going on to their eternal afterlife, so what they do here, and how they act here is important only insofar as it determines the course of their eternal afterlife. You appear to not believe in such an afterlife, so clearly you don't have the same motivations as they do, that doesn't necessarily make them wrong or you correct.

because they're scared to question their own faith. I know many people who are faithful, and who question, and who still conclude that they believe. Try telling Guido that he's a moronic sheep who is too afraid to question his faith and see how far that gets you.

Well, this dude on the video says that's wrong, and that you need to do more than just say it. Earn your way into heaven, not continue "sinning". Those "christians" are going to Hell, if the video is to be believed Actually, this issue is one of the ones that caused some of the splits in christian faiths. Some of them believe that good works are necessary to go to heaven, others believe that you get into heaven by faith alone. So the truthfullness of the statements in that video basically depend on which denomination you adhere to.

You don't really need to physically go to a place to worship, but rather mentally go to a place of worship.This one is one of the issues that sparked the protestant reformation. Again, depending on your denomination, you either believe that ones relationship with God is personal, or that one's relationship with God is done through an intermediary such as a Priest.

Oh i guess he's right and the bibles wrong then. But wait there's literally thousands of contradictions in the bible.Your ignorance is showing. As mentioned above, you're just misdefining 'believeth' to mean 'believe in the existance of' and nothing else, when believeing in the existance of God and believing -in- God necessarily includes following the strictures set down BY God.

Wait, does that mean people are PROFITING off of RELIGION?! Who would have thought!Some people are not all people. All generalizations are wrong.

A lot of people confuse "church" with "what the Catholic church used to do and some branches of still do," because that happens to be the most convenient anti-Christian misinformation that they can spew.This is very true. More tellingly is that people like to take shots at events that happened centuries or more ago as proof of the horribleness of the church. Try telling a teenaged German that they are horrible because of the Holocaust, or a farm owner in georgia because there was slavery there a hundred years ago, see what they tell you.

Religion literally brings in BILLIONS of COMPLETELY, UN-TAXED DOLLARS each year. Billions. Put 2 and 2 together.Maybe all religions combined all over the world. But do some more research there pal, see how many charitable organizations have been founded and funded by churches. I can name you a half dozen just based locally around the town I grew up in, to say nothing for worldwide. Yes religion generates a lot of money in tithing and donations, but it also does an awful lot of good with that money.

If you really want to criticize religion on the basis of money, the true cash cow for the church is the huge volume of land that christian denomonations own in Europe. If they sold all of that at market rates, they'd be making more like Trillions of dollars on it. Collections at mass are a drop in that bucket.

Anyways, lets go over some fun fast facts quick.

(1) An UNKNOWN BUT LARGE amount of untaxed money is brought in by religion
(2) Wars have been fought with religion playing a large role in it. If God created us, why would he ever want us to kill each other?
(3) Nearly everyone religion states that OTHER RELIGIONS ARE WRONG. So which one is right? They can't all be. But logically this means the majority of everyone is wrong!1) the value is not known by you, that doesn't make it unknown
2) God gave us free will to do with as we wanted, God presumably -doesn't- want us to kill each other, but He agreed to not interfere with our bad decisions.
3) Actually, it's primarily the Judeo-Christian religions that tend to state that only followers of their denomination will be saved. Eastern religions are generally more along the lines of "We feel this is a -better- path towards enlightenment, but there are many paths"

If you ignore everything else i right, read this. I challenge one person to answer me the following loophole.write.

Okay so Christianity states that God loves us all, and that we will go to heaven if we only choose to believe. In fact thats the ONLY way to go to heaven, we MUST believe.

So what if 3 year old child is killed in an accident? Having not yet reached an age where he is capable of making the decision to believe in God or not, does this mean he goes to hell? He spends 3 insignificant years on earth and now he's going to burn in hell for more then 100000000000000000000 years? Infinitys pretty long.Children are an exception. Before they've been baptized especially, and in many denominations, before they've had confirmation, this is ismply not an issue. Dead babies go to heaven.

More realisticly, what about people born across the globe, in third-world countries? Millions of these people simply will not have the chance to ever be exposed to christanity. Its not part of their inherent culture, many people simply don't know what it is. This means they're all going to hell? I thought God loved them? He didn't even give them a choice! They simply were not born under circumstances where Christanity was ever exposed to them, so how should they know better? This doesn't make them bad people.People who've never been exposed to catholicism and die having still led good moral lives go to purgatory for a time, and then to heaven. I'm not positive about the stance of other christian denominations that don't have a concept of purgatory, but generally speaking, you can only be punished for not being a christian if you were exposed to the concept and made the free choice to turn away from it. Ignorance of the "truth" isn't held against you.

Talking about religion makes babies cryBut if they aggravate their parents so much that they get shaken to death, they get to go to heaven.

There are MANY passages of the bible, saying AGAIN and AGAIN you should not worship false idols. Well, these people have not heard of Jesus or the Bible, so they certainly can't be worshiping him, so wouldn't that make their statue a false idol? Yet they're still good people, and believe in the concept of a greater, almighty presence. As I said, you have to have -chosen- to not follow in order for that choice to be held against you.

One extra thing, why is only Christianity under the magnifying glass. If you say religion is a scam, why not bring all the other religions into it. It seems as if you are only finding "flaws" in the Christian, preferably Catholic Church.For one, I think it's the only religion he knows enough about to feel secure in his statements, and for two, the anti-christian rhetoric in north america is so widespread that just about anybody can parrot it whether they understand it or not.

I can't specifically single out other religions, cause i don't know anything about them. With that being said, i believe most religions are manipulative and bullsh*t.So...are you taking it on FAITH that they are? Or are you just ignorantly assuming?

Oh god would me posting in this thread destroying everything be bad Post in CT more bby, we <3 u

I know this because the bible never contradicts itself. Enlighten yourself a bit more on what is supposedly contradicting itselfPortions of the bible, if read as directly referring to the same things, most certainly do contradict themselves. Grandia provided a link showing a number of things. A fairly large branch of christian apologetics deals with analyzingf the apparant inconsistancies in the text. Bear in mind also, that while the christian bible is "generally" defined as having been divinely inspired, it is not (as is a document like the Koran) claimed to actually be the direct word of God. It is still text written by men, who can admittedly make errors. Doctrine in the church has been changed many times based on new analysis and translation of texts.

There also thousands of religion related deaths every year, and those billions come from churchs ripping people off in the name of "god". Citation needed? If you want to do something like define the war in Iraq as being "religion related" and do so for every other conflict where both sides generally adhere to differing faiths, your numbers may represent something like reality, but I think it would be foolish and inaccurate to try claiming that there are actually as grandia suggested tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths per year that are BECAUSE of religion and religious belief.

Pretty sure that disease is still the leading killer of people by far.

As for the money, my family went to church for a number of years, and while collections happened, nobody ever once even insinuated in anything ever that donation was mandatory, that you were sinning by not giving money, that there would be any negative consequences whatsoever to not giving, or that you were going to get anything out of giving besides the feeling that you'd done good by giving money to a group that funds many charitable organizations. I wouldn't call that 'ripping off' anybody.

Religions are quite simply impossible to debate, so anyone taking a stance in a debate other than neutrality has already lost.Depends what specifically you're debating. In a debate between "religion X is true" and "no it isn't" you're absolutely correct. But in a debate between "Statement X about religion is valid for that religion" and "no it isn't" you can absolutely debate, and most of the objected-to statements in this thread from ryanisadouche have been of the latter kind.

When was there a suicide bomber for Christianity? You realize that the terrorists in the Middle East are islamic extremists, right?There are extremist factions of christian religions too. I direct you to the KKK as a perfect analogue to the islamic fundamentalists and their relation to the rest of islam.

There is evidence against evolution and evidence for it. Same with Christianity.Pretty much all evidence for christianity is circumstantial, or else relies on logical leaps that don't have much by way of proof to justify making them. Whereas evolution, while a lot less precise than religion at this stage in terms of what it claims, is generally stronger logically because the things it -does- claim, it also claims it has verifiable, repeatable tests and evidence to back up the claims.

Religion claims that it answers more questions than evolution does, which is true, but evolution has also never claimed to answer things it couldn't back up if pressed, which religions do all the time.

Occam's Razor chart For one, the concepts of atheism have changed a LOT since the idea that there simply was nothing beyond the natural came up. So that end of the chart is pretty much bunk anyway. For two, each of those branches of christianity will draw their chart looking exactly like the atheist one. Pretty much all of them hold that they are still the true interpretation of the original faith and the other splinter groups might as well not even be drawn in. For three...Occam's razor doesn't even apply to the subject in the chart...

Are you saying you will believe every word you read in a book, a newspaper, an article posted on the internet, etc. But if the Bible says it, you immediately pounce and start questioning it?No, he's saying that there are many sources claiming to have evidence for evolution which also claim that anybody who took the time and effort could individually test and confirm the evidence as presented, and that the bible does not do that.

Please, point me to something that is evidence that the fantastical elements appearing in the Christian bible are fact. The vast majority of the fantastical elements appearing inthe bible occur in the Old testament. Many sects of christianity have suggested that the Old testament is better viewed as a series of stories teaching moral lessons than as a literal factual account. The number of christians who believe in the pure factual accuracy of the Old testament is small and getting smaller every year.

No, people have a fundamental problem with people not looking at things logically and basing their actions on feelings that often go against logic. Anti-religion people either can't or won't understand the concept of not needing to apply scientific logic to something that has never pretended to stand up to scientific logic. Faith is faith, obviously faith doesn't stand up to proof, but it's never said it could, so slamming it for not living up to something it never said it had is a little logically ridiculous.

Plus, I think religion is something that should have never been invented because earlier at the time of Martin Luther, the Pope would sell indulgences that would "make people go to heaven." But obviously Martin Luther knew this was ridiculous and had to rebel with his 95 theses. The fact that the church was dishonestly trying to convince people to pay money for something that didn't even do anything shows that religion is really useless (in my opinion.)Relgiion predates Luther by a LONG time...I think you may have misphrased that. As for indulgences, the catholic belief at the time that forgivness for sins was granted through a priest absolving you made something like an indulgence perfectly reasonable. Donations were simply another means of showing that you'd repented for your sins. Clearly it was excessive at the time, and it was a serious problem for the church that many viewed the clergy as excessive decadant and corrupt. That was a large part of why the reformation happened, though the major issues for Luther were mroe about one's relationship with God, and one's interpretation of the bible, but the point is taken.

And another thing, religions also caused very horrible events (like the Holocaust for example.) Since the Nazis believe they would purify their religion by annihilating all Jewish people on site, that excuse caused the death of a LOT of innocent people. For one, Godwin. For two, the Nazi entity as a party was political and social not religious. Many Nazis were christians (including Hitler) but that had very VERY little to do with the issues of the holocaust. The prime mover of the holocaust was Aryanism, and many non-christians (including middle easterns, the chinese, to a lesser extent the japanese) were sufficiently aryan to avoid the various purges of the Nazi regime.

You need to learn a little more about that war, I suspect.

Because they did the one thing He told them not to do. Therefore mankind lost direct "access" to God, which is why people nowadays find it so easy to dismiss the possibility of the existence of some higher being.Of course, depending on your denomination, mankind is not being blamed for original sin anymore, so it is largely irellevant to think about why God forbade them to eat from the tree of knowledge. Presumably He simply wanted mankind to live a happy and worry free life, and once they understood the difference between good and evil, they would need to start -thinking about- whether things were good or evil, which generally just makes life more complicated and worrisome.

It is entirely more likely for a higher being to create the universe than for a spontaneous explosion of gases to cause everything and everyone to suddenly come into existence by itself.As someone said below this post, and I'm going to respond to it as well, more likely doesn't mean happened, less likely doesn't mean impossible. That said, the lure of Deism is that it provides a simpler explanation for the exiatsnce of the universe "God did it" and also doesn't have to get bogged down into questions of where God is now, what God's plan is etc etc.

Intelligent Design via Watchmaker's argument is compelling, but again, compelling isn't proven.

It's not our fault if your god made the universe in such a way that a person thinking with only logic would come to believe that he doesn't exist.Good thing faith doesn't require logic, and that having faith is one of the things that redeems you in the eyes of God then isn't it.

Don't try that **** on me. Regardless of the complications of things, the fact is that it exists. We know it exists, because here we are. Therefore, the small probability that would result in this naturally is irrelevant. Not true though Afro. It exists, yes, in spite of the absurd odds that it wouldn't. If anything that's a MORE compelling argument for ID. Because if there was no ID, odds are, there would be nothing, but there's something.

Also am I the only one who finds it odd that the universe has to have a creator but god just can exist all over the place uncaused defying supposed creationist logic because they've built an invincible imaginary friend?
You need to read up more on some of the deeper theories of intelligent design then. The universe has to have a creator, but God can simply have existed outside the bounds of this universe.

I have no problem with the idea that there are alternate and multiple universes, where for all we know, the fundamental rules aren't the same as they are here. Our universe functions pretty clearly on cause->effect, thus it makes sense to me that the effect "the creation of the universe" had a cause, but it is also a fallacy to suppose that in order to create something, you have to be bound by the same rules/characteristics as it, otherwise, we coudln't really make things that can fly, or that are transparent.

devonin

10-9-2008, 01:38 PM

Whoa, this thread went to **** while I was typing the response. Does this mean I'm actually going to have to lock it and have wasted all that time and effort?

robertsona

10-9-2008, 01:43 PM

probably

devonin

10-9-2008, 01:47 PM

Man, you're just all up in my rhetorical questions today aren't you Robertsona.

FaulkApsargs

10-9-2008, 01:47 PM

People, understand that the big bang wasn't a huge explosion that caused the universe. It's an expansion of mass from a singularity.

MalReynolds

10-9-2008, 01:48 PM

Ninja'd too far to even count.

robertsona

10-9-2008, 01:50 PM

Man, you're just all up in my rhetorical questions today aren't you Robertsona.
I don't know am I? o snap

Mecha_Maniac

10-9-2008, 01:53 PM

I don't go because I don't believe there's God.

who_cares973

10-9-2008, 01:55 PM

i actually read all that

sounds pretty much like a discussion we had in astronomy during finals my senior year

danny53x

10-9-2008, 01:58 PM

I'm glad I was raised as a Christian and that I have knowledge of Christianity and the bible, and I guess it couldn't really hurt to revisit church, but I gave up on God and a lot of things. People have said that all I have to do is accept him for him to save me. I'm not going to get on my knees every Sunday to contemplate on my one true holy God. I'm going to do homework because every other day I've got school or a marching band competition. I'll accept God even though I don't feel or know him, but I just can't enjoy being with people who are ignorant to my beliefs yet expect me to believe in something they believe in.

EDIT: I realize that religion is the same as it was 400 years ago.

GG_Guru

10-9-2008, 02:13 PM

Let your spirits ring.

The Lord is your Savior.

argo15

10-9-2008, 02:19 PM

I went to church when was younger, it was BOOOOOOORRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGG. I would sit there counting in my head, and trying to read the bible. (When was in 1st grade it was pretty dificult) Honestly I always thought they were fiction bedtime stories for parents to read to there kids.

I was FORCED to sing the the church courus by my parents. I hated it, it was a waist of my weekend.

When I got older, and realized people actually BELIEVE this stuff, I totally became anti-religion. People should stop beliving this crap. And luckily I think people have become less religious, though still believe in god and certain things.

dore

10-9-2008, 02:26 PM

Sweet, devonin didn't wreck me :D

devonin

10-9-2008, 02:47 PM

Mostly you said things like "I respect your beliefs, as long as you don't force them on me, or go around telling everyone angrily that they are idiots for not believing what you do"

What's there to wreck?

dore

10-9-2008, 02:49 PM

Oh I just expected you to wreck everyone lol

MIHC

10-9-2008, 02:57 PM

That has to be the LONGEST post ever, congrats Devonin ;D

I used to go to church when I was a kid but stopped going when we moved out of the town were in, and then I questioned God and all that right in front of my parents. Of course dad called me a heathen but I believe that it isn't healthy to never question anything.

Psychotik

10-9-2008, 03:01 PM

I don't go 'cause I'm atheist. I wish there was an atheist church. Oh ****, that's an oxymoron, hehehehe... I'm so lonely.

eastsideman09

10-9-2008, 03:32 PM

So this thread went to Hell and back.

Do you know what kind of church it was you went to recently, and what kind of church you went to when you had your bad experience?
-Merky
I can't remember off the top of my head which church I went to last night, but back in the day, it wasn't at a church. It was at school.... my friends kinda turned me off to it.

Woah wait isn't this supposed to be about experiences sitting through church and not how to explain wheather the bible or evolution is correct?
Correct, what the **** is all this?

I love discussions on what you believe in and all, but holy poop.

hahaujusdied

10-9-2008, 03:34 PM

Devonin, you saved me a lot of time because I thought about replying to 7 pages of thread... and that would hurt my brain. I really dont like to broach a subject like this just because I really dont know anyone and one of the biggest things for me is that when I try to explain facets of christianity to someone I would like to know them better.

Mostly though, the whole problem with the argument is that the people who are against christianity in this thread dont really know enough to actually be able to refute it.

I believe in God and I am a christian, but I dont like telling people, you are wrong.. but I will tell someone when they are not really disputing and just spouting out reasons that they dont like christianity while not having very good facts to support their arguments (Sorry Ryan but your arguments werent very good).

I have been studying the bible for years and it is still hard for me to interpret every single thing the bible says. I will say that most of the people who argue against the bible while quoting verses have not interpreted the verses correctly. Many of the verses are just hard to interpret and others are hard just to translate into english, so many people can interpret many different ways and can come off with an opinion that may not be entirely correct. I myself have done this and found out that I am incorrect through further study so I am not trying to talk down to anyone.

The thing is though, it is your decision. If you dont want to believe in God, Christianity, or the Bible, I can respect that. I dont agree with you, but I can respect that you have certain things you believe in. If I try my best to convince you and you still do not agree, then I have done all I can do (the biggest turn off is when christians try to do too much and offend people).

Religion is a tough subject to broach and I could talk longer but I think I have said all that is needed.

Afrobean

10-9-2008, 06:28 PM

Well, it's universally agreed upon by historians that Jesus existed. The problem people have is in the way the records of his miracles (and the resurrection) are translated or interpreted. So, one could (and should if you want to be completely objective) use the historicity of the Bible for evidence (there is a HUGE 7 volume book that explains all the proof for the Bible that I could point you to, if you're interested). I'm not saying that I do, but one could.
Like I already said, this is a fallacy. You can't take the bible as granted, then prove a few historical facts of it, then take the whole thing as truth.

And, if something does exist that breaks the laws of science, science won't be able to explain it. So, I think it's a perfectly fine topic of debate.
No, it's not. If it is not scientifically explainable (or rather, empirically measured), it is inadmissible in a true debate.

Also i am pretty sure the big bang didn't produce order, it would have produced mass chaos and disorder.
Yeah, the Universe is relatively ordered, but it is still rather chaotic. The Greeks are the ones who applied the word "cosmos" to it, not people with a scientific understanding of things "up there".

the anti-christian rhetoric in north america is so widespread that just about anybody can parrot it whether they understand it or not.
I find this funny, because we still live in a country wherein a person can only be elected president if they are a practicing Christian.

The vast majority of the fantastical elements appearing inthe bible occur in the Old testament. Many sects of christianity have suggested that the Old testament is better viewed as a series of stories teaching moral lessons than as a literal factual account. The number of christians who believe in the pure factual accuracy of the Old testament is small and getting smaller every year.
Resurrection. I don't give a damn about 200 year olds building giant boats and collecting two of a bunch of animals. I'm sure most folks, even those of the religion, have already dismissed it as a mythic story and nothing more. Maybe a grain of truth, but it's lost in the torrents of mysticism. But the Resurrection, that's a fundamental thing that MUST be taken as fact for a person to believe Christianity's teachings. Without the resurrection, why is he proven to be worthy of worship? Sure, he was a great guy, I'm sure, but there have been plenty of great people throughout history and most of them aren't worshiped as a god.

faith doesn't stand up to proof, but it's never said it could
But that's the thing. People claim it CAN and DOES. That's what gets to me like no other. Some people even claim the "logic" of it supersedes science. What the ****.

Good thing faith doesn't require logic, and that having faith is one of the things that redeems you in the eyes of God then isn't it.
This is the ideal that I try to emphasize, but people are always attempting to say that it is logical to believe these things. No, it is not logical, that's why it's "faith", you moron. You don't reason these things to be true, you have faith that they are.

odds are, there would be nothing, but there's something.
Odds are irrelevant. Even the smallest likelihood of something occuring, given infinite time and space, that thing will occur. So when you say "look at how complex the universe is, something intelligent must have created life on earth", I can't help but realize that in the vastness of space, we may just be that one in a trillion chance of it happening. Like I said about the lottery example, yes there is a small chance a person would win the lottery, but if a person shows you their money and says "I won the lottery" the first thing you should think isn't "he didn't really win the lottery", because he's standing right there in front of you with the money.

And yeah, Devonin, this should have been locked back on like page 2. And dude, change your av because I keep thinking you're Mal.

the people who are against christianity in this thread dont really know enough to actually be able to refute it.
GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY

Holy ****. YOU CANNOT REFUTE IT. THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF RELIGION. THIS IS WHY THE WHOLE **** IS RETARDED. As soon as a person can come to a logical deduction that a religion isn't true, that religion can just counter back with a "God moves in mysterious ways" and the very idea that God exists outside the realm of human understanding. Really, take a look at the ideas of Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster), Invisible Pink Unicorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn) and Russel's Teapot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot). Then try to disprove any of them.

oh ps one thing i think is funny about christianty: ignorance of the "truth" doesn't automatically send one to hell, right? Wouldn't missionaries be just causing otherwise good people to go to Hell by exposing them to the "truth" and giving them the choice?

FaulkApsargs

10-9-2008, 07:07 PM

Like I already said, this is a fallacy. You can't take the bible as granted, then prove a few historical facts of it, then take the whole thing as truth.

No, it's not. If it is not scientifically explainable (or rather, empirically measured), it is inadmissible in a true debate.

First, have you read and seen all of the historical evidence backing the Bible? Far, far more than a "few historical facts" have been proven.

And second, so just because something can't be empirically measured, it's unqualified for debate? Then why the hell am I a philosophy major? Almost everything I study is metaphysical!

GuidoHunter

10-9-2008, 11:40 PM

Also i am pretty sure the big bang didn't produce order, it would have produced mass chaos and disorder.

The Big Bang did indeed produce something that wasn't ordered, but it wasn't exactly disorder. It produced vast amounts of energy.

Nature produced order from those energy gradients in order to better degrade them into disorder.

As such, without the supply of energy that the Big Bang gave, there would be no order. Of course, there would be nothing...

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Afrombean

10-9-2008, 11:41 PM

First, have you read and seen all of the historical evidence backing the Bible? Far, far more than a "few historical facts" have been proven. The historical accuracies of the Bible are not what atheists take exception with and you know it. You can get secular evidence suggesting many historical accuracies of the Bible, but I know with certainty that nothing substantive can be put forth in effort to verify the fantastic elements of the Bible.

And second, so just because something can't be empirically measured, it's unqualified for debate? Then why the hell am I a philosophy major? Almost everything I study is metaphysical! You can argue in favor of or against something metaphysical, but you cannot put forth something metaphysical as evidence to support a claim. For example, if your claim is "God exists", but you can't support this claim with anything empirical, nor even source cited eyewitness, you've got no leg to stand on. Anonymously written stories from thousands of years ago are not reasonable anything... again, let me point you to the Odyssey, the Iliad, and Beowulf. You citing the Bible as fact in a debate would be no different than me trying to cite the story of Beowulf to prove the existence of monsters.

edit: Guido, why can't it be that the energy had existed in the mass before the Big Bang? Potential energy, that is. Like a spring, depressed into itself still contains all the energy that will be released as kinetic energy.

GuidoHunter

10-10-2008, 12:47 AM

What is this "before the Big Bang" you speak of?

The idea is as concrete as the mind of God. No man knows it and no law describes it, so what's there to ponder?

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Afrombean

10-10-2008, 12:52 AM

What is this "before the Big Bang" you speak of?

The idea is as concrete as the mind of God. No man knows it and no law describes it, so what's there to ponder?
I meant in the instant before the matter expanded outward. Rather than saying "there was a single point with all the matter in existence, then energy was produced out of nowhere," I think it makes more sense to say "there was a single point with all the matter in existence, along with all of the energy stored as potential energy that would become the energy which caused all of the matter to expand outward."

I just don't like the idea of "hey all the energy in the universe? yeah, it came from nowhere for no reason at all when the big bang happened". If one can assume that matter existed in this moment before it expanded outward, why then is it not reasonable to guess that all of the energy was stored within the matter like a depressed spring?

GuidoHunter

10-10-2008, 01:03 AM

I meant in the instant before the matter expanded outward. Rather than saying "there was a single point with all the matter in existence, then energy was produced out of nowhere," I think it makes more sense to say "there was a single point with all the matter in existence, along with all of the energy stored as potential energy that would become the energy which caused all of the matter to expand outward."

You do realize that you're just going from "nothing -> energy" to "nothing -> matter -> energy", right? And that that's no smaller a logical leap?

I just don't like the idea of "hey all the energy in the universe? yeah, it came from nowhere for no reason at all when the big bang happened". If one can assume that matter existed in this moment before it expanded outward, why then is it not reasonable to guess that all of the energy was stored within the matter like a depressed spring?

Because at that level of density, the line between matter and energy is most likely indistinguishable. Recall that energy and matter are interchangeable, so when I say "the Big Bang produced energy", I make no real distinction between energy as you think of it and matter.

Perhaps you should clarify your original point/comment? I'm a little confused about where we're going here.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

hahaujusdied

10-10-2008, 02:08 AM

Izzy

10-10-2008, 02:20 AM

Calm down.

Please do so yourself.

Afrombean

10-10-2008, 02:28 AM

You do realize that you're just going from "nothing -> energy" to "nothing -> matter -> energy", right? And that that's no smaller a logical leap? WHO SAID IT HAD TO START WITH NOTHING HUH HUH

Because at that level of density, the line between matter and energy is most likely indistinguishable. Recall that energy and matter are interchangeable, so when I say "the Big Bang produced energy", I make no real distinction between energy as you think of it and matter.
I wouldn't go as far as to state it so simply, but that is a good point.

But then are you saying that the Big Bang CREATED matter/energy (under the argument that they're that malleable a form)? My understanding on it has always been that what there is what there is, and the Big Bang was merely a super expansion of all that there is from a point of singularities of sorts.

Perhaps you should clarify your original point/comment? I'm a little confused about where we're going here.
Meh. The difference of opinion I think is that I think you're saying the Big Bang created something and I'm thinking that all that was already existed and the Big Bang just exploded it all out.

Not that this has anything to do with religion, of course.

ps Izzy, he just copied what I had written above about how it is impossible to "refute" religion and how stupid it is to even try to attempt a real debate on it.

Tokzic

10-10-2008, 02:32 AM

hi guys i heard were talking about rElIgIoN

And, if something does exist that breaks the laws of science, science won't be able to explain it. So, I think it's a perfectly fine topic of debate.

So wait.

You think that everything beyond human comprehension is a fine topic for debate.

That's not a "debate", that's just taking turns with mindless speculation.

Anyway, I believe there is some unnatural force behind the creation of the universe, and I believe that same force is underneath everything in the fabric of reality. Unfortunately, it will forever be beyond our comprehension.

And I've never understood people who actually bother devoting themselves to organised religion. I keep hearing cute words like "self-improvement" and "enlightenment" but these things never actually happen in organised religion. If you're finding yourself improved by following other people's guides on how to live your life, you were never thinking about how to live your life in the first place.

Devoting any amount of time to assuming that someone's theory about how the unknown works is a waste of time. What cannot be understood will not be understood on this plane of existence, and pretending that it can be is intellectual suicide.

Necros140606

10-10-2008, 02:52 AM

GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY

Holy ****. YOU CANNOT REFUTE IT. THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF RELIGION. THIS IS WHY THE WHOLE **** IS RETARDED.

^ is why i dont talk about religion on forums.. I was actually proving your point. People try to refute it but cannot because it cannot be refuted.. but most of the people who try arent interested in religion and dont care anyway. And the ones who do dont put it that way anyway. Calm down.

sorry but afrobean is perfectly right

this third-class mental trick is just one of the absurdities religion claims to stand on. something that is not fakeable yet not provable is mere speculation. i hope we all agree on this. now, we could say that, religion, since it falls in this category, is not real. i wouldn't ever waste my time to worship something "that it is assumed to exist". church has a solution for this of course. faith has no need to be proven, yet the "miracles" are silly attemps of proving something that in its essence it's not supposed to be proven. just looking at all the contradictions of the church, without going as far as the contradiction of god itself (which was brought by church anyways), we could easily tell how everything is based on thin air.

now let me tell you another thing. missionaries today conformed to the modern world, so they appear as smiling saviors sent to teach the ignorant duders. heh. what about this. this is the biggest sign of arrogance of a secolar establishment towards a group of people. missionaries are just like those guys who stop you in the mid of the street and convince you to sign a life insurance contract. gimme a break. they're just trying to expand the religion everywhere not because it is right or it is useful to those populations (nay, it sometimes brings more evil than good, destroying their social organization and beliefs, therefore only causing chaos), but because they're in a constant fight with other religions and against miscredents in general. religion feeds on the mind of its prey. it will fall once people will start thinking with their own head, and this is partially happening right now.

faith is just a dog biting his own tail and never leads to anything, but again this is primarly a matter of going to the church or not, which is even worse since all churches and all religions stained themself with the worst of the worst. what we know about the killing of witches, the inquisition and the cruelty and repression of missionaries in america and all over the world is merely the top of th iceberg.

open your eyes. no reasonable person will ever accept a god and more importantly no good person would ever want to side with the organizations that recklessly killed millions of people more than any war ever.

hahaujusdied

10-10-2008, 03:06 AM

I disagree... I mission to people because I want them to see what I see, to experience what I do in my faith, because I have been blessed, and I want them to be too... but it is their choice and im not signing them to a contract..

There are many reasonable people that are christians/religious, but there are also unreasonable people that are religious. To say that all reasonable people are not religious is just naive.

Truthfully, your opinion is just fine to me, I understand where your coming from, I have many friends that detest religion... its not like im not seeing anyone else's viewpoint, dont take me the wrong way.

Tokzic

10-10-2008, 03:25 AM

I disagree... I mission to people because I want them to see what I see, to experience what I do in my faith, because I have been blessed, and I want them to be too... but it is their choice and im not signing them to a contract..

Missioning is a ridiculous notion. People make decisions for themselves, by themselves. If they want to know about your religion, they'll find information on it, and explore it as a possibility. Don't shove thoughts down people's throats.

Necros140606

10-10-2008, 03:26 AM

just by looking at all the evil the religions have been doing throughtout the history, even if i were an alien secretely watching over the earth for 2000 years, even if i did not understand the idea of god and watsover, i could easily tell how religion, brings HATRED, is an excuse to WAR, RACISM, INTOLLERANCE. some religious would not and did not hesitate to BURN people when they are themselves burned by the holy spirit of faith... religion is definitely EVIL.

GuidoHunter

10-10-2008, 11:52 AM

just by looking at all the evil sex has been doing throughtout the history, even if i were an alien secretely watching over the earth for 2000 years, even if i did not understand the idea of coitus and watsover, i could easily tell how sex, brings HATRED, is an excuse to WAR, RACISM, INTOLLERANCE. some cuckolds would not and did not hesitate to BURN people when they are themselves cuckolded... sex is definitely EVIL.

Clearly, we need to abolish sex.

But then are you saying that the Big Bang CREATED matter/energy (under the argument that they're that malleable a form)? My understanding on it has always been that what there is what there is, and the Big Bang was merely a super expansion of all that there is from a point of singularities of sorts.

Meh. The difference of opinion I think is that I think you're saying the Big Bang created something and I'm thinking that all that was already existed and the Big Bang just exploded it all out.

I think I'm just going a step farther in asking where that singularity came from. The Big Bang itself is indeed just the expansion from the singularity; my point was that whether you look at it as an explosion of the tiny ball of matter/energy or just an explosion of energy is effectively equivalent. Either way you have an ourpouring of energy from a limitless source which can neither be described nor predicted.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Afrobean

10-10-2008, 12:42 PM

I think I'm just going a step farther in asking where that singularity came from. The Big Bang itself is indeed just the expansion from the singularity; my point was that whether you look at it as an explosion of the tiny ball of matter/energy or just an explosion of energy is effectively equivalent. Either way you have an ourpouring of energy from a limitless source which can neither be described nor predicted.
Yeah, but that's just an extension of the fact that we know nothing of "before" the Big Bang and likely never will.

MystictheHedgehog

10-10-2008, 01:01 PM

now let me tell you another thing. missionaries today conformed to the modern world, so they appear as smiling saviors sent to teach the ignorant duders. heh. what about this. this is the biggest sign of arrogance of a secolar establishment towards a group of people. missionaries are just like those guys who stop you in the mid of the street and convince you to sign a life insurance contract. gimme a break. they're just trying to expand the religion everywhere not because it is right or it is useful to those populations (nay, it sometimes brings more evil than good, destroying their social organization and beliefs, therefore only causing chaos), but because they're in a constant fight with other religions and against miscredents in general. religion feeds on the mind of its prey. it will fall once people will start thinking with their own head, and this is partially happening right now.

Your ignorance is showing with the missionaries statement buddy. I agree with you on one thing, those pricks who stand in the middle of the streets and condemn you to hell unless you take his fliers are ridiculous. But missionaries? Do you even know what one actually does? Do you think they go, gather up a tribe, and immediately do the thing that bullhorn guy does in the middle of the streets? My previous experiences with a mission work, is the missionary goes over to some area where Christianity has not been heard, and lives there for a while, learning the language, making friends, and slowly mentioning it to the friends they are making.

And that missionaries are doing it because of some battle with other religions, that is plain retarded. Yeah Sally, let's go and leave everything we know and love, go to a 3rd world country, live there for 10 years, risk our lives other religions are forbidden to be mentioned by some law by the government. Yeah, they are totally doing it because they hate other religions.

that recklessly killed millions of people more than any war ever.

Love to hear your facts on this one.

Missioning is a ridiculous notion. People make decisions for themselves, by themselves. If they want to know about your religion, they'll find information on it, and explore it as a possibility. Don't shove thoughts down people's throats.

The whole point of Missioning is spreading your religion to those who haven't heard it yet. Not to go and inform Bob down the street that he is going to hell. This is called witnessing. Witnessing, though similar, is not being a missionary.

And nice generalization at the end, that all missionaries are trying to shove religion down your throat. With the exception of bullhorn guy that stands in the middle of streets, religious people don't try to shove it down your throat. In fact, a lot of people in this area are scared as crap to mention religion to anyone, even their best friends, because they may take it as "shoving down their throat"

devonin

10-10-2008, 01:20 PM

I had such hopes for this thread. Ah well, now we know why religion is generally not a topic that lasts long in this forum.

Hey Tass, can you rig me up a private forum to be as to CT what FFYa is the TGB? Please?