Ingame Song Information

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by stavie33

And I've been complaining about Night and Day for god knows how long. That song is hard as shit and one of my worst FMO's.

Dude, it's a mid FMO. Just look at the scoreboards. More people have gotten <10 goods on N&D than on most low FGOs, even ones that have been around for ages. If you're only going to base your opinions on how much you personally have trouble with the patterns, nobody else has any reason to pay attention to them.


Also, and this goes out to everyone including stavie, the difference between 0 and 2-3 goods shouldn't matter in the difficulty ranking. Yeah, a lot of files are going to be kind of tricky to hit. Some more than others (hi Synthlight). But the ranking should be based only on how hard it is to hit, FC, and PA a given song, not on how hard it is to finally nail the AAA. Awkward sections should only be a factor in the difficulty if they pose a trouble to everyone - the people who are just at the level of reading, FCing, or starting to PA the file. So we get something like Skeletor, which still only has 6 AAAs (less than some recent low FGOs), but which should stay FMO, because the roll only becomes FGO-worthy if you're trying to shave off the last few goods.

[iironiic]

Originally Posted by qqwref

Dude, it's a mid FMO. Just look at the scoreboards. More people have gotten <10 goods on N&D than on most low FGOs, even ones that have been around for ages. If you're only going to base your opinions on how much you personally have trouble with the patterns, nobody else has any reason to pay attention to them.


Also, and this goes out to everyone including stavie, the difference between 0 and 2-3 goods shouldn't matter in the difficulty ranking. Yeah, a lot of files are going to be kind of tricky to hit. Some more than others (hi Synthlight). But the ranking should be based only on how hard it is to hit, FC, and PA a given song, not on how hard it is to finally nail the AAA. Awkward sections should only be a factor in the difficulty if they pose a trouble to everyone - the people who are just at the level of reading, FCing, or starting to PA the file. So we get something like Skeletor, which still only has 6 AAAs (less than some recent low FGOs), but which should stay FMO, because the roll only becomes FGO-worthy if you're trying to shave off the last few goods.

I agree with this. Just remember that many players share different strengths and weaknesses. The opinions they say will somewhat be biased because of these differences. More people needs to be open minded to accurately determine the difficulty, but clearly, that can't happen in practice.

[TC_Halogen]

Night and Day is nowhere near a high FMO. It's BARELY in the middle FMO area, the only reason it even stands a chance near that area is because of the ending 32nds. While they are quick, they are nowhere near impossible.

There are much better FMOs/FGO pairings to compare and think about - like Frictional Nevada (225 BPM) vs. Of course you Need and [...] NEED me (240 BPM), or something like Time to Eye (48th burst madness for short periods of time, very low 12) vs Tageri (nasty framer bursts, also very low 12)...

just examples. Pick better songs to fight about.

EDIT: this post was intended for stavie, haha

EDIT: The rating system is useless if people can sit and argue about it all the time. A new rating system is order, seriously.

[ScarletSky]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Night and Day is nowhere near a high FMO. It's BARELY in the middle FMO area, the only reason it even stands a chance near that area is because of the ending 32nds. While they are quick, they are nowhere near impossible.

There are much better FMOs/FGO pairings to compare and think about - like Frictional Nevada (225 BPM) vs. Of course you Need and [...] NEED me (240 BPM), or something like Time to Eye (48th burst madness for short periods of time, very low 12) vs Tageri (nasty framer bursts, also very low 12)...

just examples. Pick better songs to fight about.

EDIT: this post was intended for stavie, haha

EDIT: The rating system is useless if people can sit and argue about it all the time. A new rating system is order, seriously.

THIS
ALL OF THIS x9001

>big text to emphasize importance of post.

[Plan_Bsk81127]

I am not one really to care about difficulties too much, but is there a reason why OMGWTFT0K3N is a 12? That chart is defiantly a 13

[iironiic]

Originally Posted by Plan_Bsk81127

I am not one really to care about difficulties too much, but is there a reason why OMGWTFT0K3N is a 12? That chart is definitely* a 13

;] This rofl.

EDIT: Same with P4Uv1 imo

[bballa48]

In Stavie's defense, I don't think that he was implying it was a high FMO and certainly no where near a FGO. I think he was just echoing my statement that ranking it as a low FMO is an utter disgrace, specifically compared to the FMOs above it in Arcade alone. Heck, same with INFINITY hyperspace. That song, even outside of the 32nds section, is pretty tricky.

And I second both P4UV1 and OMGZ being 13s. They are way harder than every 12.

[qqwref]

Gigadelic and p4u v1 are obviously 13s, just look at the number of people who have SDG'd each one.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

EDIT: The rating system is useless if people can sit and argue about it all the time. A new rating system is order, seriously.

Yeah, how about that idea I had ages ago where we compare the high score tables of two songs to determine which one most players can do better on? You just have to choose a file to be the hardest possible one of each difficulty, and you're pretty much done.

Oh yeah, and since it's automated and objective, you can literally just run the script and recalculate the difficulties every week. So a file could start out as 11 because people have some trouble doing well on it, but then move down to 10 once more people have figured out the patterns. There would be no need to debate difficulties or complain, because only the scores people are getting would affect the rated difficulty. (And my proposal isn't affected by the number of people who have played the file, just by how hard people have tried to get scores on it, and that evens out over time.)

[rushyrulz]

There needs to be a song difficulty metric based on the actual patterns, not the number of AAAs.

[TC_Halogen]

Average percentage of max score or average score difference from perfect score can help determine ratings.

edit:

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

There needs to be a song difficulty metric based on the actual patterns, not the number of AAAs.

The inevitable problem with this is subjectivity, in comparison to something that is based off of player performance/scores (raw data/numbers = objective ratings).

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by bballa48

And I second both P4UV1 and OMGZ being 13s. They are way harder than every 12.

It's blatantly obvious party4u v1 is a 13, haha - it just hasn't been changed yet.

Before when I joked about OMGWTFTOKEN being a 12, that was because I had 2 clean on it (from dumb splitting in the beginning lol) while I wasn't able to get better than 3-0-0-5 on Revo. Overall, it is a 13 and should be bumped up, but it's definitely the lowest 13 if it does.

Revo has really intense jacking pattern sections and I've had thoughts about it being a 13 - it's just that for the other 13s they just get mashed HARD. Just an FC alone on Revo is guaranteed top 100 ranks if you have an FC equivalent to around 600 goods (which means you get goods/averages for around 1/3 of the file, and you'd have to mash heavily for that) while a mashed FC on Death Piano (talking 1300+ boos here) can give you top 70.

FGOs should be hard but easy enough to FC. Winter wind etude is one of those files that are just mashed heavily and don't have heavy long jacks, so that's an example of a high FGO that is easy enough to FC, just tough to score on.

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Average percentage of max score or average score difference from perfect score can help determine ratings.

Nope, you shouldn't look at the average because then the "difficulty" of a song depends on how long it's been out. The serious players go through files first, and then they very slowly accumulate plays by casual players.


PS: Revo should be the hardest 12.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by qqwref

Dude, it's a mid FMO. Just look at the scoreboards. More people have gotten <10 goods on N&D than on most low FGOs, even ones that have been around for ages. If you're only going to base your opinions on how much you personally have trouble with the patterns, nobody else has any reason to pay attention to them.


Also, and this goes out to everyone including stavie, the difference between 0 and 2-3 goods shouldn't matter in the difficulty ranking. Yeah, a lot of files are going to be kind of tricky to hit. Some more than others (hi Synthlight). But the ranking should be based only on how hard it is to hit, FC, and PA a given song, not on how hard it is to finally nail the AAA. Awkward sections should only be a factor in the difficulty if they pose a trouble to everyone - the people who are just at the level of reading, FCing, or starting to PA the file. So we get something like Skeletor, which still only has 6 AAAs (less than some recent low FGOs), but which should stay FMO, because the roll only becomes FGO-worthy if you're trying to shave off the last few goods.

I have NEVER said Night and Day is FGO, it's far, FAR from it. I've been complaining that it's lower than Battle Theme 37 and Radio Heads. Where did you get the idea I thought it was FMO? I've been complaining that it's an 80 that's listed as a 78 that's lower in game than 77's

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by stavie33

Heaven is NOWHERE near FMO. Not even high high VC, probably a 73. How could you see it possibly being harder than Djdj Pvc, Crash the Beat, or Heroes Theme? Not even a 74. This isn't cause I think it's easy, it's because it has the same patterns at a lesser speed and a less dense extent than other VC's around it's range

My response to this: this song pushes out tons of 32nds at a higher BPM than Novo Mundo (160 vs. Novo Mundo's 140), an extremely low 11 that I foresee being dropped to a 10 very soon). So, it's at least comparable to a near-borderline file. Some of the patterns are difficult to read, regardless of them being simple to hit. I wouldn't say that it's nowhere near FMO -- I can see it being in the 73-74 area, the higher echelon of the VCs.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

My response to this: this song pushes out tons of 32nds at a higher BPM than Novo Mundo (160 vs. Novo Mundo's 140), an extremely low 11 that I foresee being dropped to a 10 very soon). So, it's at least comparable to a near-borderline file. Some of the patterns are difficult to read, regardless of them being simple to hit. I wouldn't say that it's nowhere near FMO -- I can see it being in the 73-74 area, the higher echelon of the VCs.

The problem with Novo IMO is that it is a lower BMP, it's so low it's hard to jumptrill without extreme precision, and even then it's easy as hell to pull goods, and the roll wall is pretty long, these are mainly single bursts. I said it's 73, but I still say it's nowhere near an FMO, and nowhere near means never going to become one to me, it doesn't mean how close it is to a high VC.

[DossarLX ODI]

If you're jumptrilling rolls at that speed, then it's obviously going to land you goods without extreme precision in the late perfect frame.

[qqwref]

Any rolls under 225 bpm have a chance of framer placements which force you to hit at least one 1-frame window if you want to AAA by jumptrilling. The further from 225, the more of those there will be, in terms of percentage. So stuff like Hajnal, Master Maid, Toxiferous Dystopia, and Skeletor will have plenty of 1-frame windows, and AAAing pretty much requires either hitting the rolls properly or having extreme luck ("extreme precision").

PS: Any roll of at least 112.5 bpm is technically possible to jumptrill and AAA... and any stream of at least 225 bpm can technically be AAA'd by hitting jumps. But I don't generally recommend this strategy.

[jimerax]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Average percentage of max score or average score difference from perfect score can help determine ratings.

If we determine difficulty rating by people's scores (called statistical method), it will be take so long to get relatively accurate difficulties. I say at least n=5,000-10,000 is required.

I think it should be considered for difficulties as one of factors (along with technical factors like bpms, framers, tps) though, it's just difficult to compare the parameters between songs due to the number of players, release date, etc.

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by jimerax

If we determine difficulty rating by people's scores (called statistical method), it will be take so long to get relatively accurate difficulties. I say at least n=5,000-10,000 is required.

I think it should be considered for difficulties as one of factors (along with technical factors like bpms, framers, tps) though, it's just difficult to compare the parameters between songs due to the number of players, release date, etc.

Come on, you guys... I've already thought about stuff like this, that's why my proposal is different. This will not work and I don't know how many times I have to say this. If you randomly compare technical factors you will end up with a number that represents something roughly related to difficulty, but certainly doesn't represent what you want - a measure of how much effort and skill a typical real, human FFR player will need to get a certain score on the file.

Here is the biggest problem: even if you could make a formula like that, you would never be able to calibrate it. Exactly how hard is a 207 bpm anchoring pattern like 33[34]44, for an average player? Should the difficulty of a file like Crowdpleaser depend on the length of the file? How about a file like EHHS? (impossible to know, no, and yes) This is pure pseudoscience, and it's just going to be used as a silly justification of someone's opinions. You're never going to get a useful difficulty measure by looking at some formula, but only by looking at actual scores from actual players.


I'll outline my idea again. You compare two files by simply taking pairs of scores, the best score from the same player on each file, and comparing them by how far they are from the AAA (that is, PA). After you discard pairs that don't tell you anything useful (people who get over 100 boos on either file, people who haven't completed both files, people who have the same score on both, etc.), the file that has a worse score in >50% of the pairs is more difficult. A technique like this will produce a useful measure of difficulty, even in the worst case scenario, because it automatically gives a higher rating to files most players in the community have difficulty with.

[Darkbreezee]

Originally Posted by qqwref

This will not work

agreed here , well anyways , i guess the difficulty levels are well set.
but i'd like to see a rating that is kinda more precisely, maybe not even 1- 13
i mean the jumps between the difficulties beyond 10 are insane.
If u can easily AAA a lvl 10 u will still suck hard on lvl 12 songs.
(no argueing here guys , sorry if i repeat myself)