Is it wrong to be gay?

[MrRubix]

Guys it's pretty obvious that paqrat is trolling. And if not, he's a rather misled and nutty individual.

There are indeed many cases where people actively choose/develop a certain sexual preference between men and/or women, but there are obviously many cases where people are born with such a preference. Ever since I can remember, for instance, I've been attracted to females. I can remember this type of preference even during very, very early ages, and this type of attraction was independent of any active "choice" or social influence. It was just there. Likewise, many homosexual men can tell you the same thing about their own childhood and how they've always found the same sex to be preferable. Some people are just born with it.

[Chrissi]

I probably have a fairly extreme view on this, but anyway,

I don't believe gays are necessarily "born that way". I admit that there are certain factors of your development and your inborn personality that will give you a tendency to be gay or straight or anything in between or outside these boundaries. But I don't think that anyone can be "born gay". In order to be gay you need to be made of the right stuff (nature) and have an envrionment that allows you to consider the idea of being gay.

For example, let's take the two most extreme variations.

Variation #1 is somebody with a very gay "nature" and absolutely no gay "nurture". This person was born with very strong gay urges; however, they live in a place like Iran like The-Persian-King mentioned earlier,

Originally Posted by The-Persian-King

we have pretty much no homosexuals in Iran

it's entirely possible that the person would never "express" their gayness and would remain straight. If the environment doesn't foster it, it doesn't happen.

Variation #2 is somebody with very little gay "nature" and a lot of gay "nurture". Now, it's hard to describe this, considering (as I will explain later) that we don't really know what environmental factors cause somebody to be gay. But let's presume that whatever these factors are, this person is bombarded with them. Let's say the strongest gay environment (if very impractical) that a person can be born into is one where their parents are a same-sex couple that are the same sex as the person, and EVERYBODY they are exposed to in their lives are the same sex as them, and in this mythical society, children are sexualized at an early age- sexual media is in abundance and perhaps sexual play between children is well-fostered.

It's likely that this person may grow up feeling that being gay is "normal" and, regardless of not having a natural tendency to be gay, they might grow up feeling extremely gay and turn out to be a gay person.

Or, they could reject the idea and realize that they are not attracted to the same sex. But they would need to be exposed to the idea of the opposite sex before they could actually develop a sexual orientation toward them. Once they have, it's likely this person would realize something's up and, even if they dont' have a word or concept for being straight, they would probably realize something is "wrong" and seek out relationships with those of the opposite sex.

I don't really know which one would prevail, I guess it would depend on the individual case.

With that said, I think that primarily, gayness is environmental. I think that most people have a fair tendency to be gay if the conditions are right. The people who are born with a very strong or very weak tendency to be gay are outliers.

And let me make it clear that by environmental factors, I don't mean how accepting/tolerant the culture is of sexuality. I mean things that are yet unidentified - things that would cause a person to develop their tendency. Perhaps having sexual feelings and associating these feelings with someone of a particular sex. I really don't know. As far as I know these factors have not been identified - and I think it will be a long time before they are identified, if ever, because the current prevailing ideology is that of gays being "born that way".

I don't think it's practical for gays to be "born that way". Why?

- Many people grow up not realizing they are gay, and only later in life decide they must be gay.
- There are less gay people in certain areas and times and more gay people in others. You could say that these people are simply repressing their feelings and "pretending" to be straight in repressive societies, but this doesn't really seem right... you'd see more homosexual underground behavior. There is some, but I think there would be more.
- I don't think a thing like being "gay" is something you can be born as. It's just a preference - like preferring to play video games, but saying that you were just "born" a gamer kind of sounds silly. You can be born as a person who has a high likelihood to end up a gamer, but if you were never exposed to games, you won't be a gamer.

With all that said, I am very opposed to the idea that being gay is a "choice". You don't choose it. You just are it. It doesn't matter what causes it, either way you can't help it. It's your own personal feelings and preferences, so how can you choose that?

From this perspective there's no reason to think that being gay is "wrong" or "right". It's just a variation like any other variation. Since it doesn't cause harm, I don't see why it would be wrong. Those with strong religious convictions would believe otherwise, but if we take religion out of the equation, I don't see any reason to why being gay would be wrong.

[Izzy]

Gay people not being born gay can't just be an opinion because it isn't true... The main factor of homosexuality is primarly a genetic one.

Didn't feel like reading the rest because of this error.

[N.T.M.]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Gay people not being born gay can't just be an opinion because it isn't true... The main factor of homosexuality is primarly a genetic one.

I disagree. I know this isn't a common perspective, but it seems to me that their propensity may also be ascribed to their childhood. Seems to be correlated with fathers who are either absent often, or present a very poor image. I've noticed this quite a few times actually and it seems plausible.

Also, however, there are brain scans which display a strong affinity between homosexuals' brains and females'. Clearly this'd suggest a genetic predisposition, but these similarities aren't always present.

My point is that I don't believe that it's soley genetic, or even if genetics always plays a role to some degree.

*edit* Holy ****! 15 pages?!?!

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Gay people not being born gay can't just be an opinion because it isn't true... The main factor of homosexuality is primarly a genetic one.

Didn't feel like reading the rest because of this error.

Uh, wonderful.... do you have some sort of proof of this "fact", because I study sexuality in school and I'm almost done my degree - it's my minor (major is psychology) and I have never encountered proof that homosexuality has a genetic basis.

It certainly seems to be the most common viewpoint, but please do not confuse that for the idea that somebody has proven it to be true.

Originally Posted by N.T.M.

Also, however, there are brain scans which display a strong affinity between homosexuals' brains and females'. Clearly this'd suggest a genetic predisposition, but these similarities aren't always present.

Brain scans do not indicate genetic cause. Our brains are malleable - for example, people who have grown up with cell phones have a larger representation of the thumb in the brain from texting so much. I hope you don't think this means that it was in our generation's genes to text. That would be silly.

Also here is a comic to express my feelings about whether being gay is wrong or not.

[MrRubix]

Chrissi, for someone who is studying that stuff, I'm surprised you don't acknowledge the evidence that suggest genes play a very strong role. Nothing's conclusive on either side of the argument (in my opinion this is likely because both play a part in tandem), but to say "I have never encountered proof that homosexuality has a genetic basis" is a bit disingenuous to the issue.

[Izzy]

Is it not true that people are born with heterosexuality? Or do you think that everyone is heterosexual because everyone else is heterosexual. To me it seems like hormones play a big role, and it is pretty well known that people can be born with all kinds of hormone deficiencies and unnatural levels of the opposite hormones. There are even genetic mutations of the sex chromosomes to produce trans gendered people. How can all of those different birth effects not have a large impact on someones sexual orientation.

If a gay person developed his homosexuality later in life why would it ever be possible to easily point out a gay man from a group of men. Assuming they are dressed the same. There voice box is different from what I assume is lower levels of testosterone and possibly higher levels of estrogen.

Either way it seems ridiculous to say there is no reason to believe that homosexuality is not something genetic related.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by MrRubix

Nothing's conclusive on either side of the argument (in my opinion this is likely because both play a part in tandem), but to say "I have never encountered proof that homosexuality has a genetic basis" is a bit disingenuous to the issue.

I take "proof" to be a very strong word. I realize there are studies that give indications that a genetic basis might be possible. But nobody has proven it (to my knowledge), so it's just wrong to tell it as if it's fact.

I just feel that my theory better encompasses the way homosexuality arises and the variations across cultures.

Originally Posted by Izzy

Is it not true that people are born with heterosexuality? Or do you think that everyone is heterosexual because everyone else is heterosexual.

No, that's a complete non-issue in my view. Since I believe that sexual orientation is almost entirely learned, I believe that, in general, people are socialized to be heterosexual, but some people reject this and become homosexual instead. We aren't born straight - we are born humans.

Basically, no, I don't think we're born heterosexual - we aren't born anything. Although this may sound contradictory, I do also believe that some people are born with a strong heterosexual tendency and others are born with a strong homosexual tendency. But I think most humans can go either way depending on environmental/social/external factors.

What I mean is that the majority of sexual orientation is not innate. There may be some small innate aspect but it's minor. It's like you don't have to be born with a sweet tooth to enjoy candy. You could hate candy until you're 35 years old and then love candy. How do you know you were "born with" this? You probably weren't... unless you could only stand sweet things as an infant and this was consistent as you grew up, then you might have been "born with" a sweet tooth.

Originally Posted by Izzy

To me it seems like hormones play a big role, and it is pretty well known that people can be born with all kinds of hormone deficiencies and unnatural levels of the opposite hormones. There are even genetic mutations of the sex chromosomes to produce trans gendered people. How can all of those different birth effects not have a large impact on someones sexual orientation.

First of all, transgendered people are defined as those who are OTHERWISE NORMAL but for some reason have a strong desire to personally associate with the gender to which they were not originally prescribed. You are talking about intersex people when you talk about sex chromosomes and mixed up hormones causing gender confusion. This is entirely different.

You don't want to tread into those waters. What you're talking about is very complex and I don't even know how to begin to explain how amazingly intertwined and yet unrelated these issues are. I don't feel like writing an essay right now. Just know that I know a LOT more about intersexuality than I do about homosexuality and sexual orientation as compared to what most people know about either issue, and I could talk for years about sexual development and sexual/chromosomal/hormonal disorders.

Originally Posted by Izzy

If a gay person developed his homosexuality later in life why would it ever be possible to easily point out a gay man from a group of men. Assuming they are dressed the same. There voice box is different from what I assume is lower levels of testosterone and possibly higher levels of estrogen.

Either way it seems ridiculous to say there is no reason to believe that homosexuality is not something genetic related.

Wow, you're just playing on stereotypes and social convention. "Gay guys act differently than straight dudes and that means they were born that way". Do you understand that social factors strongly affect the way you act?

You haven't given me any evidence whatsoever (not even close) to indicate that sexual orientation is genetic in nature. Also I have never seen a study showing that gay men consistently have lower levels of testosterone, or that this is in ANY way a "cause" of them being gay.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by Chrissi

Wow, you're just playing on stereotypes and social convention. "Gay guys act differently than straight dudes and that means they were born that way". Do you understand that social factors strongly affect the way you act?

You haven't given me any evidence whatsoever (not even close) to indicate that sexual orientation is genetic in nature.

What I'm saying is that a gay man generally acts more feminine in nature. And have a a feminine undertone in their voice.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Izzy

What I'm saying is that a gay man generally acts more feminine in nature. And have a a feminine undertone in their voice.

And? That means it's genetic? Explain how, please.

It just sounds to me like you have a very loose grasp of what kinds of things indicate genetic cause and what kinds of things indicate social cause.

The "feminine" mannerisms of gays are DEFINITELY socially constructed, no doubt about it. Gays act that way to define themselves and to identify themselves with the gay culture. There are plenty of gays who do not identify this way - look at the very first post in this topic for a good example.

[devonin]

One thing I'm aware of from a documentary I'd seen on human sexuality, is that a woman carrying a male fetus produces a barrier in the womb that keeps estrogen levels low going into the fetus, and that the more male children a woman gives birth to, the less that barrier is effective at keeping estrogen out, with the result being that the more male children a woman has, the more likely they are to develp more effeminate, and potentially more likely to be homosexual.

Anecdotally, I know more than a few "youngest of 3+ boys" boys who are gay.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by devonin

One thing I'm aware of from a documentary I'd seen on human sexuality, is that a woman carrying a male fetus produces a barrier in the womb that keeps estrogen levels low going into the fetus, and that the more male children a woman gives birth to, the less that barrier is effective at keeping estrogen out, with the result being that the more male children a woman has, the more likely they are to develp more effeminate, and potentially more likely to be homosexual.

Anecdotally, I know more than a few "youngest of 3+ boys" boys who are gay.

Yes, I don't know how strong that one is - I think it comes from like just one study, though I could be wrong. Either way... yup, that one is in definite support of the environmental factors thing. Not social, not genetic, but environmental (which includes social).

I was going to mention it in an earlier post but I don't think I did.

[Izzy]

How is homosexual 3 year olds evidence of environmental factors? That is very backwards.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Izzy

How is homosexual 3 year olds evidence of environmental factors? That is very backwards.

Are you trolling?

Try reading my last 2 posts and maybe you'll understand.

[Wyde]

Originally Posted by Izzy

How is homosexual 3 year olds evidence of environmental factors? That is very backwards.

I'm thinking you read devonin's post incorrectly here. I think he was referring to "the youngest of 3 (or more) children", not 3 year olds.

[fido123]

From what I've researched online over the past year and a half, it doesn't seem to be genetic, but there does seem to be both biological and physiological like Chrissi said. A lot of it I think is a weak father figure. I can see this in my life, my boyfriend's life defiantly, and pretty much every gay person I know. Of course not every guy with a weak father figure is gay, in fact most aren't, a lot of it is biological. From my personal experiences, homosexuals tend to be a bit more femmy with some exceptions. God damn I love DDR, Rave Music, getting into Musicals, and have a strange obsession with cute things and will probably be some ****** in an apartment with a room dedicated to god damn plushies. For whatever reason, a lot of homosexuals have similar interests.

[Mollocephalus]

i probably tried to bring this up earlier in this thread but how we consider bisexuality? is it just a transitory phase, a deviation from the two opposites (etherosexuality - homosexuality), or something else?

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Mollocephalus

i probably tried to bring this up earlier in this thread but how we consider bisexuality? is it just a transitory phase, a deviation from the two opposites (etherosexuality - homosexuality), or something else?

If both can exist, they can exist together in one person. I think the main reason is some people don't think gender should decide who you're allowed to love, which I agree with, but those people I also think are attracted to both.

[Mollocephalus]

that makes sense. i do not go around saying "x is right" and then do y.
i, too, think that gender has nothing to do with emotions for a person.

[hantaaxD]

Hai there [: I don't think anything is wrong with being gay. People are differnt, and we should all accept that. I personally know gay/bi people, and just because they are like that does not make them bad people. They are the same, and have a good heart. Society now is so judgemental, and it's hard to deal with. But, I say keep your head up [: