Jamais Vu [93 or 94]

ilikexd · 07-31-2013, 11:03 PM

I think Jamais Vu is more difficult than a 93. There are only three 93s, and one of them is The Wises Were Wrong, so I'll just compare it to EP.

Compared with Extratone Pirates, another jumpstream file, I think Jamais Vu is indubitably more difficult. JV is 230bpm while EP is 250, but JV is much much denser and pretty much all of the dense parts are anchors, a lot of which force one-handed trills. Hitting the JS in EP seems slightly more difficult, but it is much shorter. And while both have 32nd bursts, the ones in EP are much easier to jumptrill, while there are a few in JV that cannot. In fact, the very last one before the trills is extremely difficult and is some sort of weird triplet pattern. I'm pretty sure this is the hardest part of the file.
The scoreboard does a good job at reflecting the difficulty as both were released just two weeks apart and both are fast JS files.

Rank 20 on Jamais Vu: 97-14-0-45, 2 AAAs
Rank 20 Extratone Pirates: 31-1-0-7, 5 AAAs
Personally I get around three times as many goods on JV and I haven't even been able to FC it yet.

**bmah** · 08-1-2013, 01:13 AM

thread approved

mi40 · 08-1-2013, 01:19 AM

JV has a lot of friendly patterns while extratone has some really tricky patterns in its bursts

JV has a lot of jumptrillable parts and such, and the only reason it's a 93 is because it is relentless - and since most people dont have stamina for 230bpm for 3 minutes i can see why people get like.. 3 times as many goods in JV

also people are generally more prone to goods during extended trills - JV has exactly that - trills (230bpm 16ths) for an extended amount of time near the end of the song that results in the a lot of goods for many i believe

jv is like a high 93 but not a 94 imo

**Gradiant** · 08-1-2013, 01:24 AM

Definately not qualified to judge ratings on files in this difficulty range but I'm pretty sure that

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikexd

JV is 230bpm while EP is 250

makes Extratone Pirates rated a step above Jamais Vu. 20 bpm difference is actually a big difference when it comes to the jumpstream in the two mentioned files.

**One Winged Angel** · 08-1-2013, 01:32 AM

Was actually talking to smartdude about this a few days ago.

Yes I think EP is comparably easier than JV, but I don't think JV should be bumped up to 94. If anything, EP should be 92. Apparently many players can handle jumpstreams at these speeds (see MFDFY and how many AAAs it already has) so EP's rating may be slightly overinflated given how comfortable the ending jumpstream is to hit. The rest of that file doesn't breach 90+ imo.

ilikexd · 08-1-2013, 02:38 AM

I definitely think JV is 1 difficulty level above EP, that it can't just be a high X vs low X thing. The disparity is too great. But now looking at the 92-94s, moving EP down to 92 instead is a bit more logical. It certainly feels similar to AQD & System Doctor to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradiant

makes Extratone Pirates rated a step above Jamais Vu. 20 bpm difference is actually a big difference when it comes to the jumpstream in the two mentioned files.

I have to disagree with this. I know a 20 BPM difference is generally a significant factor, but there are lots of parts in JV that are layered on 8ths, so the NPS is actually a bit higher for a decent portion. In addition, the patterns in EP are friendly and unanchored, while JV is quite the opposite.

In fact, playing JV isnt' really like playing jumpstream. It's a lot of weird trilling patterns with jumps on them.

**~Zeta~** · 08-1-2013, 02:54 AM

I find them about equal in difficulty, but jamais has the edge over EP. Both have terrible parts to get behind or miss/rush an arrow and rack up goods/averages. I find trilly jumpstream extremely easier than rigid/flowing jumpstream like EP. Staying on track/beat seems to be multitudes easier than shifting jumps all over the place. Lets not forget those transitions into/out of 32nd walls in EP [murders me every time].

EDIT: Jamais is definitely easier to get misses on.

Also, regarding AAA's, Jamais was a later round in the 6th official while EP was earlier (2 rounds?) so most of the AAA's were made from that round.

**One Winged Angel** · 08-1-2013, 03:04 AM

Looking over 92-94, I kinda want to push both WW pt. 2 and WWE into 93 (not solely based on stats but it's 4am and I'm only gonna elaborate if I'm asked lol)

I think..

92
Sys Doc, AQD, EP

93
JV, WW pt. 2, WWE, TWWW

94
CP, Husigi, Unconnected.

..makes the most sense. Thoughts? (I hope you don't mind me asking opinions on that stuff in here, ilikexd. I'll make another thread if you prefer.)

ilikexd · 08-1-2013, 03:18 AM

WWE being 94 was one of the reasons I thought JV should be 94. But it looks so out of place there next to CP, Unconnected, and Husigi. Can't comment on WW because I haven't played.

EzExZeRo7497 · 08-1-2013, 05:05 AM

It's pretty difficult to rate Jamais Vu properly because there aren't any files to compare it to at that level honestly. The closest would be Slashmaid, which is a 90. The others either aren't comparable because it's mainly bursts/a difficulty spike or just not trilly in general.

The reason why Jamais Vu has worse leaderboards compared to other files like say Extratone Pirates or Husigi Usagi Milk Tei or basically any other 93-94 in general is because Jamais Vu is consistently relentless and it's really easy to lose track of what you're hitting. Compared to Extratone Pirates, which has only one FSO part, which is pretty brief compared to Jamais Vu to begin with. Not to mention the patterning is easier, so I wouldn't compare it through leaderboards.

Every burst in Jamais Vu is hittable as jumps/jumptrills, including the last one. Though the last one requires a lot more complex jumptrilling compared to the other bursts, I agree. I find Extratone Pirates' bursts harder to be honest. Winter Wind Etude's difficulty is 94 because although most of the file is cake for its difficulty, the ending is almost unhittable legitimately and it requires a lot of frame manipulation to PA it properly. Though, Winter Wind Etude is definitely one of the lower 94s in that list.

As for Jamais Vu, I don't really think it's a 94. Yes, the anchors in the file makes a lot of one handed trills, but the speed is pretty slow (Like what Gradiant mentioned, 20 BPM is a huge deal at speeds like this) for its difficulty to begin with. The patterning definitely bumps it up. Other than that though, there really aren't any tough parts about the file. It's either that you have the one hand trilling speed and consistency or you don't honestly.

Also, about the 92-94s, this is how I'd put it:
92: Extratone Pirates (I honestly think it's a 93, but the leaderboards don't really reflect it), A Quick Death, System Doctor
93: White Walls Part 2, Jamais Vu, Husigi Usagi Milk Tei, The Wises Were Wrong, Winter Wind Etude (a lot of people find the ending a lot easier than I thought they would)
94: Crowdpleaser, Unconnected

**DossarLX ODI** · 08-1-2013, 07:13 AM

Jamais Vu is a lot more dense than Extratone Pirates and going to what ilikexd said, it does have many hidden trilling patterns mixed with jumps in them. If the player does not realize these one handed trills, it is very easy to fall behind.

Putting Extratone Pirates with A Quick Death makes more sense. If anything, I had a lot more trouble just HITTING A Quick Death than Extratone Pirates, both songs are at the same speed anyways (250 BPM).

Edit: White Walls is much harder to FC than everything listed in the 92 range, so it deserves to be bumped up. Even the scoreboards reflect this, and it's rated considerably lower than Revolutionary Etude.

**One Winged Angel** · 08-1-2013, 03:35 PM

@Eze, Husigi 93? Maybe if the frames get touched up, but with those horrible pseudo-jumps in the 64th walls and some other really disgusting parts, eh..

**TC_Halogen** · 08-1-2013, 03:43 PM

Honestly, if I had it my way, I would move A Quick Death to 93, haha. There's only two AAAs on that file, which shares the same fate as Jamais Vu. Of course, that's a purely statistical opinion...

**DossarLX ODI** · 08-1-2013, 03:47 PM

A Quick Death is harder to read than Extratone Pirates and its 32nd sections require far more control than EP.

I would be up for fixing up Husigi. Currently it is gross, but I have a lot on my mind right now.

ilikexd · 08-1-2013, 03:53 PM

I guess this thread is now about EP.

I agree that AQD is a tad harder than EP now that Halogen and Dossar brought it up.

So, no doubt EP 93-> 92 ?

**TC_Halogen** · 08-1-2013, 04:35 PM

This thread turned more about normalization of other difficulties around this particular song, hahaha.

And rather than looking at it as EP: 93 -> 92, you should look at it as AQD: 92 -> 93. EP's 250 BPM jumpstream at the end clocks in at 16.66 NPS, but with jumps every quarter note (and an instance of two 8th note jumps), you're looking at above 20 NPS collectively. With the nasty split-handed burst placement in the 32nds and the overall density of the file making the file considerably harder to read than most constant high-level files (Jamais Vu's 230 BPM jumpstream could be constituted as easier to read), EP probably shouldn't be a 92. However, the structure is simple -- the hardest part of the song requires you to haul ass, but that's all.

A Quick Death also shares the same 250 BPM structure as EP, but the simplicity of patterns found in EP is nowhere to be found in AQD -- the patterns are outright disgusting. It's not quite as stamina draining, but it is incredibly difficult to get a good score on due to nasty burst patterning and strange transitions into and out of 32nd walls. You would think this file is easy to score on with jumptrilling being the basis of getting around the large 32nd walls, but there are some 32nd bursts that start on either up and down arrows and end on split handed jumps, forcing you to do split-handed jumptrills to even stand a chance.

Jamais Vu takes the rough patterning of A Quick Death outside of the bursts and brings the density of EP's ending at a very constant pace, because unlike the other two files mentioned above, Jamais Vu is downright relentless with jump-usage, very frequently using 8th note jumps and occasionally 16th note jump pairing in the middle of streams. This should be the high-end 93.

ilikexd · 08-1-2013, 04:40 PM

So you think JV = high 93; AQD = mid 93; EP = low 93?

I see much more difference between the three, enough to constitute a difficulty jump between them.

lmao I just read the first line of my OP.

**qqwref** · 08-1-2013, 04:45 PM

Just wanna point out that 250 BPM jumpstream with a jump every quarter note is 20.83 NPS.

**TC_Halogen** · 08-1-2013, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikexd

So you think JV = high 93; AQD = mid 93; EP = low 93?

I see much more difference between the three, enough to constitute a difficulty jump between them.

lmao I just read the first line of my OP.

This is the inevitable problem of 99 being an upperbound, haha.

ilikexd · 08-1-2013, 04:54 PM

Yea 1-99 is really subjectivemanias and stuff gets especially fuzzy at the higher ends as very specific skills get emphasized to their extremes.

07-31-2013, 11:03 PM	#1
ilikexd Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,205	Jamais Vu [93 or 94] I think Jamais Vu is more difficult than a 93. There are only three 93s, and one of them is The Wises Were Wrong, so I'll just compare it to EP. Compared with Extratone Pirates, another jumpstream file, I think Jamais Vu is indubitably more difficult. JV is 230bpm while EP is 250, but JV is much much denser and pretty much all of the dense parts are anchors, a lot of which force one-handed trills. Hitting the JS in EP seems slightly more difficult, but it is much shorter. And while both have 32nd bursts, the ones in EP are much easier to jumptrill, while there are a few in JV that cannot. In fact, the very last one before the trills is extremely difficult and is some sort of weird triplet pattern. I'm pretty sure this is the hardest part of the file. The scoreboard does a good job at reflecting the difficulty as both were released just two weeks apart and both are fast JS files. Rank 20 on Jamais Vu: 97-14-0-45, 2 AAAs Rank 20 Extratone Pirates: 31-1-0-7, 5 AAAs Personally I get around three times as many goods on JV and I haven't even been able to FC it yet. Last edited by ilikexd; 08-5-2013 at 04:42 PM..

08-1-2013, 01:13 AM	#2
bmah shots FIRED Global Moderator, User Support, Judge Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Edmonton, AB Age: 35 Posts: 8,448	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] thread approved

08-1-2013, 01:19 AM	#3
mi40 ᅠ Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,652	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] JV has a lot of friendly patterns while extratone has some really tricky patterns in its bursts JV has a lot of jumptrillable parts and such, and the only reason it's a 93 is because it is relentless - and since most people dont have stamina for 230bpm for 3 minutes i can see why people get like.. 3 times as many goods in JV also people are generally more prone to goods during extended trills - JV has exactly that - trills (230bpm 16ths) for an extended amount of time near the end of the song that results in the a lot of goods for many i believe jv is like a high 93 but not a 94 imo __________________

08-1-2013, 02:54 AM	#7
~Zeta~ Flag Master Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: South Pole Age: 31 Posts: 2,156	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] I find them about equal in difficulty, but jamais has the edge over EP. Both have terrible parts to get behind or miss/rush an arrow and rack up goods/averages. I find trilly jumpstream extremely easier than rigid/flowing jumpstream like EP. Staying on track/beat seems to be multitudes easier than shifting jumps all over the place. Lets not forget those transitions into/out of 32nd walls in EP [murders me every time]. EDIT: Jamais is definitely easier to get misses on. Also, regarding AAA's, Jamais was a later round in the 6th official while EP was earlier (2 rounds?) so most of the AAA's were made from that round. __________________ Last edited by ~Zeta~; 08-1-2013 at 02:56 AM..

08-1-2013, 03:18 AM	#9
ilikexd Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,205	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] WWE being 94 was one of the reasons I thought JV should be 94. But it looks so out of place there next to CP, Unconnected, and Husigi. Can't comment on WW because I haven't played.

08-1-2013, 05:05 AM	#10
EzExZeRo7497 ⠀ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Singapore, SG Age: 26 Posts: 6,858	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] It's pretty difficult to rate Jamais Vu properly because there aren't any files to compare it to at that level honestly. The closest would be Slashmaid, which is a 90. The others either aren't comparable because it's mainly bursts/a difficulty spike or just not trilly in general. The reason why Jamais Vu has worse leaderboards compared to other files like say Extratone Pirates or Husigi Usagi Milk Tei or basically any other 93-94 in general is because Jamais Vu is consistently relentless and it's really easy to lose track of what you're hitting. Compared to Extratone Pirates, which has only one FSO part, which is pretty brief compared to Jamais Vu to begin with. Not to mention the patterning is easier, so I wouldn't compare it through leaderboards. Every burst in Jamais Vu is hittable as jumps/jumptrills, including the last one. Though the last one requires a lot more complex jumptrilling compared to the other bursts, I agree. I find Extratone Pirates' bursts harder to be honest. Winter Wind Etude's difficulty is 94 because although most of the file is cake for its difficulty, the ending is almost unhittable legitimately and it requires a lot of frame manipulation to PA it properly. Though, Winter Wind Etude is definitely one of the lower 94s in that list. As for Jamais Vu, I don't really think it's a 94. Yes, the anchors in the file makes a lot of one handed trills, but the speed is pretty slow (Like what Gradiant mentioned, 20 BPM is a huge deal at speeds like this) for its difficulty to begin with. The patterning definitely bumps it up. Other than that though, there really aren't any tough parts about the file. It's either that you have the one hand trilling speed and consistency or you don't honestly. Also, about the 92-94s, this is how I'd put it: 92: Extratone Pirates (I honestly think it's a 93, but the leaderboards don't really reflect it), A Quick Death, System Doctor 93: White Walls Part 2, Jamais Vu, Husigi Usagi Milk Tei, The Wises Were Wrong, Winter Wind Etude (a lot of people find the ending a lot easier than I thought they would) 94: Crowdpleaser, Unconnected Last edited by EzExZeRo7497; 08-1-2013 at 06:26 AM..

08-1-2013, 03:43 PM	#13
TC_Halogen Rhythm game specialist. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bel Air, Maryland Age: 32 Posts: 19,376	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] Honestly, if I had it my way, I would move A Quick Death to 93, haha. There's only two AAAs on that file, which shares the same fate as Jamais Vu. Of course, that's a purely statistical opinion...

08-1-2013, 03:53 PM	#15
ilikexd Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,205	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] I guess this thread is now about EP. I agree that AQD is a tad harder than EP now that Halogen and Dossar brought it up. So, no doubt EP 93-> 92 ?

08-1-2013, 04:35 PM	#16
TC_Halogen Rhythm game specialist. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bel Air, Maryland Age: 32 Posts: 19,376	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] This thread turned more about normalization of other difficulties around this particular song, hahaha. And rather than looking at it as EP: 93 -> 92, you should look at it as AQD: 92 -> 93. EP's 250 BPM jumpstream at the end clocks in at 16.66 NPS, but with jumps every quarter note (and an instance of two 8th note jumps), you're looking at above 20 NPS collectively. With the nasty split-handed burst placement in the 32nds and the overall density of the file making the file considerably harder to read than most constant high-level files (Jamais Vu's 230 BPM jumpstream could be constituted as easier to read), EP probably shouldn't be a 92. However, the structure is simple -- the hardest part of the song requires you to haul ass, but that's all. A Quick Death also shares the same 250 BPM structure as EP, but the simplicity of patterns found in EP is nowhere to be found in AQD -- the patterns are outright disgusting. It's not quite as stamina draining, but it is incredibly difficult to get a good score on due to nasty burst patterning and strange transitions into and out of 32nd walls. You would think this file is easy to score on with jumptrilling being the basis of getting around the large 32nd walls, but there are some 32nd bursts that start on either up and down arrows and end on split handed jumps, forcing you to do split-handed jumptrills to even stand a chance. Jamais Vu takes the rough patterning of A Quick Death outside of the bursts and brings the density of EP's ending at a very constant pace, because unlike the other two files mentioned above, Jamais Vu is downright relentless with jump-usage, very frequently using 8th note jumps and occasionally 16th note jump pairing in the middle of streams. This should be the high-end 93.

08-1-2013, 04:40 PM	#17
ilikexd Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,205	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] So you think JV = high 93; AQD = mid 93; EP = low 93? I see much more difference between the three, enough to constitute a difficulty jump between them. lmao I just read the first line of my OP. Last edited by ilikexd; 08-1-2013 at 04:46 PM..

08-1-2013, 04:45 PM	#18
qqwref stepmania archaeologist Join Date: Aug 2005 Age: 34 Posts: 4,090	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] Just wanna point out that 250 BPM jumpstream with a jump every quarter note is 20.83 NPS. __________________ Best AAA: Policy In The Sky [Oni] (81) Best SDG: PANTS (86) Best FC: Future Invasion (93)

08-1-2013, 04:54 PM	#20
ilikexd Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,205	Re: Jamais Vu [93 or 94] Yea 1-99 is really subjectivemanias and stuff gets especially fuzzy at the higher ends as very specific skills get emphasized to their extremes.

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