TWG XCI: Waned Lichens - Page 7

**devonin** · 11-20-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

You should be worried if it DOESN'T change at all.

When you're casting votes and making calls of -knowing- who wolves are, and then the list changes, that just means that you go from being "sure" it's someone to being "sure" it's someone else, which to me, says you aren't "sure" at all.

Quote:

The reason I'm so confident about fiction and a2p are because of subtle things posted on another forum, about their disappointment in the game coming to a halt.

Is there an "Outside the game info" rule that might be coming into play here? If they were posting on not this forum, and not on AIM to another player, can that stuff even count?

Quote:

But seriously, come on, ****ers, you really think killing me day 1 is the best option? I have a better track record than most for catching wolves alone, and you think I'm the best day 1 lynch?

If you're a wolf, it's a great option, because in addition to lynching a wolf, we get rid of someone who, being a wolf, is going to be giving -bad- advice in the guise of plausible advice to try and screw over our ability to find the rest of the wolves.

Quote:

The statistical likelihood of me being a wolf is less than 1/4. If I'm a wolf, you can always lynch me on a later day and no real harm comes from it (unless you fear my single vote).

The statistical liklihood, in a vacuum, of you being a wolf is less than 1/4, when you add in the things you've said and done, to me, the statistical liklihood of you being a wolf is a lot closer to 1/1. I also don't fear your single vote, I worry over your grandiose claims of being able to lead a lynch on whomever you please. Since I think you -are- a wolf, the fact that you might be right in claiming to be able to convince others to vote how you want, you need to be not here anymore influencing human players to lynch other humans.

Quote:

Dev says he doesn't believe I could lead a lynch against freaky, but the rest of you, think about it honestly. You really think I couldn't have gotten freaky lynched? You really think I didn't think I could get it done?

You're lying. I didn't say I didn't believe you could get freaky lynched. I said -I- didn't buy your reasons for wanting to lynch him, and that -I- didn't think you could convince -me- to want to lynch him with those reasons.

And you know what? Every time you feel obliged to brag about how amazing you think you are at this game, I want to make sure you're dead that much more. When people suspect you're a wolf Afro, telling them that you're wicked awrsome at the game, and can get anybody lynched you want just makes you look even more dangerous. You're SO SURE that you could "get it done" you know YOU (In italics to show that you're being a completely arrogant braggart) [Oh, I guess Afro again just in case italicizing someone's name makes you think they're being unvoted]

**devonin** · 11-20-2009, 11:07 AM

tl;dr version: I'm very sure that afro is a wolf, and he's spending so much time bragging about how he can get anybody lynched that he wants, that he's simply too dangerous to keep around under those circumstances. I don't want a wolf being the one trying to lead lynch decisions.

**freakysnots** · 11-20-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin

Guess he wasn't doing the same "inactivity bs" to avoid getting lynched this time.

When have I ever done this? Show me.

Oh, I die.

Litodude · 11-20-2009, 08:39 PM

saftey edu

hello sorry for the "inactivity." i'mg oing to post this log which will tell you everything about litodude you have questions about (and since i pretty much skimmed through the thread i'll get back to it later)

Iggy911Mc 8:21 pm
hey, youre normally active in twg but right now i dont think you have posted so far this game, care to explain?
Litodude 8:21 pm
i can't even access the site
it's still down isn't it
Iggy911Mc 8:22 pm
im on it right now
Litodude 8:22 pm
oh
wow
now it's up
now let me read my pm
hmm
it says human
hmm
looks like i don't care about this game anymore
Iggy911Mc 8:23 pm
can you get on? i noticed you havent loggied on in a while so i can see why you havent posted but im sure you know youre playing so i just didnt understand why you havent even up until when ffr went down
Litodude 8:23 pm
im sure you know youre playing so i just didnt understand why you havent even up until when ffr went down
i found out my role the night that ffr went down
Litodude 8:23 pm
sytho reminded me i was in a twg
read it
didn't bother reading the thread because i had other duties
Iggy911Mc 8:25 pm
i understand, i know you havent had a chance to really read the thread much, but who do you think the wolves are?
Litodude 8:25 pm
-sigh-
let me raed the thraed
Litodude 8:26 pm
guess what my ping is right now
over 9000
hooray military internet
Iggy911Mc 8:27 pm
lol nice
that means youre getting my messages before i even finsih typing them
Litodude 8:27 pm
after a 30 second delay yea sure
Iggy911Mc 8:28 pm
oh, i thought 9000 was good, i know nothing about computers
Litodude 8:30 pm
no
lower the ping
the worsr
a ping is like
a measurement of how fast a packet is sent between two computers
or servers
Litodude 8:34 pm
lol
you actually called me out on the thread in the 2nd page
i'll post just for you darlin'
Iggy911Mc 8:36 pm
lol yeah but that was before i learned that you had not logged on since the game started
and it was a total gut feeling guess. it would take a lot more for me to actually vote for you
Litodude 8:38 pm
k
imma post this log
and go find a game to play
and a drink
pce
Iggy911Mc 8:39 pm
later

**iggymatrixcounter** · 11-20-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Iggy, like manti, plays the Tass school of thought. He wins games, yes, but he is able to do so by running alliances, by abusing blues, by using exclusive information to pick who to lynch.

About time you recognize my strengths XD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean

He isn't much more of a threat to the wolves than most of the rest of the active players this game.

That's not entirely true, do not underestimate me afro. I can pick out wolves with better than random picking. I may not be a rapid fire type guy like yourself but I can pull my weight around.

Guys, I'm all for hating on afro but he's right in the fact that even though he's super annoying, he can pick out wolves when he actually throws his vote down. He makes tons of accusations yes but only one of those he actually believes enough to make a vote and that vote is usually pretty good. He's not a day 1 lynch for sure, his input, while hard to accept, is worth while. Even if he was a wolf, he would still out his wolf buddies if "logic" and other reasons mandated him to do so.

Now this doesn't mean I do not think he's not a wolf, I always suspect him, even in the game I seered him as a human lol. It's more of a risk verse benefit problem. If he's a wolf and we kill him yes, that's good but if he's a human and we lynch him, it hurts us imo.

Now dev I agree that you are defending the freaky kill a little too much but I do not believe it's because you're a wolf defending your pick. I truly believe, after talking with a few other players, that you're more of the objective, sound, logical type. And if something merits being said, you will say it no matter if it makes you sound wolfy or not. It's a good trait to have but sometimes it gets you in trouble (like in the case of afro's vote on you lol). But your points are valid.

If you want to find wolves, do not look in the spotlight, wolves are 80% hidden but under the radar. It takes a special kind of skill to be a wolf in the lime light. They always get caught or slip up or something. For instance, most of the votes are based off what the loudest people are saying. Look at people's posts, but also look at their lack of posts, how they post compared to other times they post. More wolves find themselves being on the brink of being inactive at times.

That being said, I still think vic is a wolf. Other players who have a high risk of being wolf would include the following players:

litodude: When i initially said he was a wolf, it was based off the fact that he usually is active but did not post at all. Then I found that he did not even log on so that took my suspicion down. But after having a convo with him, I find that his reasons are convenient, vague, and too "on the fence" for me to really think that his "truth" is all there is.

gun: fairly inactive but as soon as you mention his name, he posts in his defense. Too convenient imo. However, I would probably not vote for him because it's a stretch to use that as my only evidence.

tupa: lol this is more of a personal thing. Like gun I would never vote him, but I just know that when we were wolves together, he did an awesome good at flying under the radar even though he had no reason to be trusted. So it's more paranoia to me than anything.

I have a few people who I'm about 80% sure are human. But to reveal their names directly only hurts them as I know the wolves have used my "human lists" as their personal wolf targets. Course I usually play the game as an alliance leader so perhaps they will not think I carry as much weight without any "blues" to abuse (lol afro).

@a2p: I like the fact that you actually have opinions now. If you were this sure about things when you were an alliance leader, you would have won (and will probably always win) that game where you lead an alliance.

@ afro: If you want to use this as your defense:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean

But seriously, come on, ****ers, you really think killing me day 1 is the best option? I have a better track record than most for catching wolves alone, and you think I'm the best day 1 lynch?

Then you really shouldn't vote for manti, he also falls into the same, better alive than dead, category as you. Even if you do not like to admit it, he's a good player.

Also this made me lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean

The statistical likelihood of me being a wolf is less than 1/4. If I'm a wolf, you can always lynch me on a later day and no real harm comes from it (unless you fear my single vote).

I don't know, I get what you're saying but lol..... lol. Ah you are not used to dancing on your feet, I understand.

That's all I have to say for now, I'm keeping in touch with as many players aas I can but I'm not getting too much to go off atm. But it's only day1 and I think I've got as much as I could.

FictionJunction · 11-20-2009, 08:50 PM

manti

Code:

(12:17:20 PM) Devonin: Need some help counting to 3, mr wolf?
(12:17:34 PM) Me: lol
(12:17:50 PM) Devonin: Well, you seem to be having some issues with 3 not equalling 4
(12:18:31 PM) Me: didnt I use the word "or" when talking about you and manti in my last post?
(12:18:37 PM) Me: Im quite sure I used the word "or"
(12:18:41 PM) Devonin: You used 'and' in the previous one.
(12:18:46 PM) Devonin: So I guess you're getting less sure as you go.
(12:19:02 PM) Me: at this point im sure about fiction and a2p
(12:19:06 PM) Me: that leaves only one slot
(12:19:13 PM) Devonin: You were sure about manti and I being in cahoots.
(12:19:21 PM) Me: .................................
(12:19:26 PM) Me: you are retarded lmao
(12:19:28 PM) Me: yeah
(12:19:30 PM) Devonin: So you're either wrong about manti and I being in cahoots, or you're wrong about fic and a2p being wolves.
(12:19:30 PM) Me: my mind can NEVER change
(12:19:37 PM) Me: I am thinking now
(12:19:40 PM) Me: that I was probably wrong before
(12:19:55 PM) Me: because of new things Ive seen which changed my opinion about fiction and a2p
(12:20:01 PM) Me: well
(12:20:03 PM) Me: not "changed"
(12:20:06 PM) Devonin: As a game-relevant aside, and I already posted about it
(12:20:07 PM) Me: but "cemented"
(12:20:16 PM) Devonin: But can you use posts from another forum that wasn't game related in the game?
(12:20:28 PM) Me: you can use outside conversations
(12:20:32 PM) Me: whats the difference
(12:20:44 PM) Devonin: I'm just curious, as a rules thing.
(12:20:56 PM) Devonin: I guess really they just shouldn't have said anything about the game outside the game?
(12:21:04 PM) Me: they didnt say much
(12:21:09 PM) Me: but they didnt need to
(12:21:17 PM) Me: but
(12:21:31 PM) Me: its not as though all private discussion HAS TO be readily available to public
(12:21:34 PM) Devonin: I don't even know what posts you're talking about, but "greens rarely get invested in the game" is a pretty ****ty reason to be "sure" that they're wolves now.
(12:21:47 PM) Me: whats the difference whether private discussion happens on AIM, an AIM chatroom, IRC or a forum?
(12:22:00 PM) Devonin: Maybe they just both think you're a wolf and wanted to see you get lynched to wipe your smug grin off?
(12:22:09 PM) Me: lol
(12:22:17 PM) Me: thats not at all in fiction's character as a human
(12:22:26 PM) Me: go have a look at the last couple of games
(12:22:27 PM) Devonin: Oh, it's got nothing to do with in-game roles.
(12:22:29 PM) Me: and look at his voting style
(12:22:36 PM) Devonin: You're just a smug arrogant jerk when it comes to TWG
(12:22:44 PM) Me: then compare his sudden reach to get me of all people killed day 1
(12:23:06 PM) Me: is smugness something I should be lynched for??
(12:23:15 PM) Me: I thought the game was about lynching wolves, not lynching jerks
(12:23:16 PM) Devonin: No, being a wolf is something you should be lynched for.
(12:23:30 PM) Devonin: And being a wolf who is also constantly claiming to basically get anybody lynched that they want, you need to be lynched -right now-
(12:23:44 PM) Me: I never said I could get anybody I wanted lynched
(12:23:53 PM) Devonin: You imply it all the time.
(12:24:04 PM) Me: just that if I had something on a person and I wanted to get them lynched, I probably could especially on day 1 when I have other people supporting me already
(12:24:08 PM) Devonin: You make a big deal about what word choice implies about people.
(12:24:19 PM) Devonin: Your word choice is that of an arrogant jerk who thinks he's better than everyone else.
(12:24:28 PM) Me: I AM BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE
(12:24:32 PM) Devonin: See?
(12:24:33 PM) Me: SUCK MY DICKCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
(12:24:41 PM) Devonin: And you wonder why people think you're a smug jerk?
(12:24:52 PM) Me: I never wondered anything about that
(12:24:55 PM) Me: I only wonder
(12:24:58 PM) Me: why people are being stupid
(12:25:00 PM) Me: and trying to kill me
(12:25:01 PM) Me: I mean
(12:25:05 PM) Me: it makes sense for wolves
(12:25:11 PM) Me: but I know all four of you cant ALL be wolves
(12:25:19 PM) Devonin: You know, if you get lynched, and you are a wolf, that this will all seem very hilarious to everybody else.
(12:25:38 PM) Me: Id laugh too
(12:25:41 PM) Me: but alas
(12:25:45 PM) Me: not gonna happen
(12:25:47 PM) Devonin: And the degree to which you're insisting that the wolves can only be frigging morons will be even more funny.
(12:25:54 PM) Me: I didnt say that
(12:26:01 PM) Devonin: You implied it in your word choice.
(12:26:12 PM) Me: I said it was a bad kill choice
(12:26:15 PM) Devonin: people "implying things in their word choice" is how you make every decision.
(12:26:19 PM) Devonin: You said it was stupid also.
(12:26:20 PM) Me: then INTENTIONALLY baited a response by insulting the wolves
(12:26:22 PM) Devonin: Not just 'bad'
(12:26:36 PM) Me: and who responded to my insult
(12:26:39 PM) Me: but YOU AND MANTI lol
(12:26:46 PM) Devonin: Me and Manti!
(12:26:49 PM) Me: YOU AND MANTI
(12:26:53 PM) Devonin: And you KNOW apparantly now, that one of us isn't a wolf.
(12:27:00 PM) Me: maybe Im wrong about one of fiction/a2p :\
(12:27:02 PM) Devonin: So oh snap, a human responded to your attempt to bait
(12:27:09 PM) Devonin: Must not have been a good attempt then.
(12:27:17 PM) Devonin: But you're "Sure" about them.
(12:27:34 PM) Devonin: Because they posted on another forum that they were enjoying this game, they must be wolves.  Only wolves enjoy the game?
(12:27:42 PM) Devonin: You seem to be enjoying it.  This is "when you thrive" isn't it?
(12:27:59 PM) Me: I enjoy being green
(12:28:01 PM) Me: most dont
(12:29:14 PM) Devonin: When you get lynched and are a wolf, I'll be enjoying being green.  
(12:29:28 PM) Me: well if this is the last game you're gonna play
(12:29:32 PM) Me: you wont see that happen :\
(12:29:46 PM) Me: you want to see me lynched as a red though
(12:29:49 PM) Devonin: But having a wolf try to talk everyone into lynching you when you know you are a green, that's a little frustrating and makes the game not so fun.
(12:29:53 PM) Me: there are plenty of old games to read
(12:30:08 PM) Me: one time
(12:30:10 PM) Me: tass was a wolf
(12:30:13 PM) Me: and I knew it
(12:30:18 PM) Me: and I called him on it
(12:30:20 PM) Devonin: Afro, I don't actually care about your anecdotes.
(12:30:23 PM) Devonin: I can go read them if I want to.
(12:30:24 PM) Me: and he got me lynched >:|
(12:30:53 PM) Devonin: So if you get me lynched, we'll have duplicated that precisely.
(12:31:04 PM) Me: Im not voting for you anymore, am I?
(12:31:11 PM) Me: a little over defensive??
(12:31:20 PM) Devonin: No, but I'm still on afro's magic list of wild guesses that are still right just enough to brag about.
(12:31:23 PM) Me: Im not even grouping you with my "sure" group
(12:31:36 PM) Me: if you want
(12:31:42 PM) Me: I could probably bump a2p
(12:31:44 PM) Devonin: Well, you're grouping me in "And one of these two"
(12:31:48 PM) Me: since he's almost all gut for me
(12:31:56 PM) Me: I could put you up there with manti and fiction
(12:32:05 PM) Devonin: I'll even be generous and say you're grouping me in "And probably one of these two"
(12:32:48 PM) Devonin: Well, your reasons for all 4 of us are pretty sketchy, so you're naturally free to change your mind and flip-flop without looking like you actually have no idea, and still be able to claim to have called it retroactively if you were even partway right.
(12:33:11 PM) Me: pretty sketchy lmao
(12:33:19 PM) Me: why am i being voted for again?
(12:33:24 PM) Devonin: "They posted on another forum when the site was down that they were upset the site was down"
(12:33:30 PM) Devonin: That's not sketchy to you?
(12:33:41 PM) Me: HOW ABOUT THIS
(12:33:43 PM) Me: ignore that completely
(12:33:47 PM) Me: look at fiction's vote on me
(12:33:53 PM) Me: and compare his nature in voting for me here
(12:33:54 PM) Me: on day 1
(12:33:56 PM) Devonin: If I ignore that completely, you're now accusing them both for no reason.
(12:33:58 PM) Me: when Im close to death
(12:34:01 PM) Me: to last game
(12:34:06 PM) Me: when he wouldn't vote for makilaz
(12:34:12 PM) Me: even though he was the one that started on him
(12:34:19 PM) Me: or at the end when we lynched u84 for faking a log
(12:34:27 PM) Me: he wouldnt vote for u84 until after insta already happened
(12:34:34 PM) Devonin: I guess it depends on how close to death everyone thinks you actually are.
(12:34:39 PM) Me: 4 votes
(12:34:44 PM) Me: more than enough for a day 1 lynch
(12:34:53 PM) Me: even 3 is pretty damn close
(12:35:02 PM) Me: which is what I was at when fiction voted for me if I recall
(12:35:37 PM) Devonin: If you're a wolf, the logical thing to assume is that you're going to be accusing humans of being wolves.  However, there was motion towards lynching you, as I recall, before Fic/A2P even posted anything
(12:36:02 PM) Me: who was it that started that
(12:36:04 PM) Me: was it manti
(12:36:09 PM) Me: or you
(12:36:19 PM) Me: do you recall?
(12:36:26 PM) Devonin: Motion towards lynching you? I think it was me, I'm not sure of the exact chronology and the site looks down again
(12:36:32 PM) Me: yeah
(12:36:52 PM) Devonin: But when you turned my questioning your logic into accusing me of being a wolf when I know I'm not, that would have been when I started suspecting you, yes.
(12:37:09 PM) Me: you were questioning something that neednt be questioned
(12:37:15 PM) Me: without expressing a better alternative
(12:37:24 PM) Me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
(12:37:25 PM) Me: read this
(12:37:29 PM) Me: that is what you were doing
(12:37:33 PM) Devonin: I know what the term means Afro, and you're wrong.
(12:37:39 PM) Devonin: WHat I was doing is called "Being Devonin"
(12:37:41 PM) Devonin: And you know it.
(12:37:44 PM) Me: so
(12:37:52 PM) Me: you spread FUD in everyday life
(12:37:53 PM) Me: ??
(12:38:06 PM) Devonin: Uncertainty is one of the most valuable tools in life.
(12:38:14 PM) Devonin: l2philosophy
(12:38:18 PM) Me: all it does is scare people
(12:38:21 PM) Me: scared people are stupid
(12:38:28 PM) Devonin: I'd say it's the opposite way.
(12:38:29 PM) Me: thihngs which are reasonable
(12:38:33 PM) Devonin: Only stupid people get scared by uncertainty
(12:38:38 PM) Me: shouldnt be considered so uncertain
(12:38:41 PM) Me: things which are reasonable
(12:38:46 PM) Devonin: That, and people who are bull****ting us and are worried about their claims being submitted to scrutiny
(12:38:46 PM) Me: should be admitted as reasonable
(12:38:54 PM) Me: and not questioned unless a MORE reasonable alternative is given
(12:38:58 PM) Me: or at least
(12:38:59 PM) Devonin: Those people also make a big deal out of being questioned.
(12:39:05 PM) Me: AN EQUALLY reasonable alternative
(12:40:10 PM) Devonin: You just dont' understand philosophy or me, or how formal logic works, but I don't fault you for that.
(12:40:21 PM) Devonin: In fact, questioning something even if you have no better alternative is still a valuable tool.
(12:40:24 PM) Me: formal logic isnt important here
(12:40:30 PM) Me: this is an inherently illogical situation we are in
(12:40:36 PM) Me: there are WEREWOLVES among us
(12:40:39 PM) Devonin: I'll be even more general: "Questioning -anything- is a valuable tool"
(12:40:40 PM) Me: how do we catch them?
(12:40:45 PM) Me: BY MURDERING TOWNSPEOPLE ONE BY ONE
(12:41:34 PM) Devonin: And if we're going to murder people for reasons we admit are sketchy at best, we'd best question those reasons as much as possible to try and minimize the chance of accidentally killing humans
(12:41:55 PM) Me: right
(12:41:59 PM) Me: question why you would kill me
(12:42:00 PM) Me: please
(12:42:36 PM) Me: dont sit there and say "question things" when I explain the most reasonable reason for why freaky was wolfed
(12:42:45 PM) Me: then turn and say "omg u should die today BECAUSE I SAY SOOOOOOOOOO"
(12:42:52 PM) Devonin: Because the combination of your claims to being able to get lynches done, in conjunction with the fact that your judgement is clearly flawed either because you're a wolf, or just aren't as good at the game as you think you are, make you too dangerous to the human team to keep alive.
(12:43:06 PM) Me: lmao
(12:43:14 PM) Me: IM A DANGEROUS HUMAN TO KEEP ALIVE
(12:43:18 PM) Me: THAT MAKES SENSE
(12:43:26 PM) Devonin: l2read plx
(12:43:40 PM) Devonin: Jesus, does this random red herring all caps **** actually distract other players?
(12:44:04 PM) Me: i use caps because italics takes longer to format
(12:44:11 PM) Me: and sarcasm easily goes missed otherwise
(12:44:14 PM) Me: but seriously man
(12:44:19 PM) Me: me being "dangerous to the human team"
(12:44:21 PM) Devonin: So the part where you said you were a human was sarcastic?
(12:44:23 PM) Me: is not a reason to lynch me
(12:44:27 PM) Me: I lynched our seer last game
(12:44:33 PM) Me: I was "dangerous to the human team"
(12:44:36 PM) Me: but thats not why we lost
(12:44:48 PM) Me: and I certainly didnt lynch u84 as the seer because I was red
(12:44:55 PM) Devonin: No, but you lynched the seer, so again, perhaps you aren't as good at the game as you think?
(12:45:00 PM) Me: uh
(12:45:06 PM) Me: u84 faked a log
(12:45:14 PM) Me: he faked a log to try to convince me to lynch syhto
(12:45:17 PM) Devonin: Either way, I don't want you leading lynch decisions.  You're either a wolf, or off your game this game.
(12:45:20 PM) Me: when I was already going to vote for her anyway
(12:45:35 PM) Devonin: And so if you're "so good" that people will follow your leads, I personally think your leads are faulty this game, for either reason.
(12:45:37 PM) Me: in OTHER WORDS
(12:45:41 PM) Me: you dont actually think im a wolf
(12:45:48 PM) Devonin: No, I think you're a wolf.
(12:45:52 PM) Me: you jsut want me to die because you're afraid of me doing something you think is wrong
(12:46:23 PM) Devonin: I'm willing to admit the possibility that I'm wrong, though I'm more than above averagely sure you are.
(12:46:39 PM) Me: lol
(12:46:49 PM) Devonin: I'm the most sure you're a wolf than any other player.
(12:46:50 PM) Me: you attack me for sketchy logic
(12:46:52 PM) Devonin: Thus you get my vote anyway.
(12:46:58 PM) Me: then employ sketchy logic to vote me dead
(12:47:06 PM) Devonin: Oh yeah, "Dev's voting to lynch the person he thinks is most likely a wolf out of all the players" really sketchy
(12:47:08 PM) Me: if you just said "im voting you beause I fear what you might do"
(12:47:10 PM) Me: Id buy that
(12:47:21 PM) Me: but I dont buy that you are that confident that im red
(12:47:24 PM) Me: youre not that stupid
(12:47:24 PM) Devonin: I should vote for someone I think is a human instead?
(12:47:51 PM) Devonin: Well, if you're accusing me of being a wolf, there's really only 1 of 3 possibilities going on there.
(12:48:00 PM) Me: the way you speak, it sounds as though you're just afraid of who I might lynch
(12:48:09 PM) Me: not that you truthfully think Im a wolf
(12:48:10 PM) Me: but
(12:48:17 PM) Me: you as a red would be afraid of who I might lynch
(12:48:24 PM) Me: especially since I had previously voted for you
(12:48:31 PM) Devonin: If I think you're either a wolf, or just making really bad calls, in either case, it woudln't be a bad decision for me to try and get you lynched.
(12:48:54 PM) Devonin: Because leaving a wolf alive is bad, and leaving someone with a lot of percieved clout who is making bad calls alive is also bad.
(12:49:01 PM) Devonin: Less bad, but still bad.
(12:49:07 PM) Me: we all make bad calls
(12:49:12 PM) Me: the only difference is
(12:49:19 PM) Me: I have confidence to express myself
(12:49:30 PM) Devonin: The only difference is that I KNOW for a FACT that you're making bad calls.
(12:49:39 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
(12:49:40 PM) Devonin: Whereas anybody else doesn't actually know for a fact.
(12:49:41 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
(12:49:44 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
(12:49:45 PM) Devonin: Yes I know.
(12:49:54 PM) Me: How do you know that Im wrong about fiction?
(12:49:56 PM) Me: a2p?
(12:49:58 PM) Me: manti?
(12:50:02 PM) Devonin: Did I say I knew that?
(12:50:08 PM) Me: you said you knew I was making bad calls
(12:50:13 PM) Devonin: I know you're making bad calls because you called me as a wolf.
(12:50:15 PM) Me: the only "call" you "know" about
(12:50:17 PM) Devonin: And I know that's incorrect
(12:50:17 PM) Me: is when I accuse you
(12:50:25 PM) Me: one bad call
(12:50:30 PM) Me: is not making bad calls
(12:50:33 PM) Me: and
(12:50:35 PM) Me: like I said
(12:50:37 PM) Me: we all make bad calls
(12:50:52 PM) Me: rarely is there a game
(12:50:56 PM) Me: where wolves are lynched every day
(12:50:58 PM) Devonin: Sure we do, but when the person making bad calls is also going on about how easily they pursuade people to follow their calls.
(12:50:59 PM) Me: and not a single human is lynched
(12:51:02 PM) Me: it is inevitable
(12:51:24 PM) Me: there wouldnt have been much persuasion necessary
(12:51:35 PM) Devonin: Again, whether you're a wolf, or just doing poorly at the game this game, I feel you're a valid lynch target.
(12:52:09 PM) Me: your reasoning isnt bad
(12:52:15 PM) Me: but Im not some throwaway ****
(12:52:22 PM) Devonin: Is this where you pat me on the head and tell me how good you are at the game?
(12:52:25 PM) Devonin: Because you've done that already.
(12:52:28 PM) Me: if youre wrong, you're throwing away a valuable asset
(12:52:33 PM) Me: becuase you fear I might make a mistake
(12:52:36 PM) Devonin: You've also punched me in the face and told me I was a moron, and how good you are at the game
(12:52:47 PM) Devonin: So you can see why I'm not exactly interested in hearing it at this point.
(12:52:52 PM) Me: only person Ive insulted
(12:52:54 PM) Me: is the wolves
(12:52:54 PM) Me: gg
(12:53:01 PM) Devonin: Um...no.
(12:53:05 PM) Me: ive repeatedly said
(12:53:08 PM) Me: you're smarter than this
(12:53:13 PM) Devonin: Do you want me to go and copy/paste where you told me that I suck at this game?
(12:53:14 PM) Me: you're not stupid
(12:53:18 PM) Devonin: Where you told me I was not good at the game?
(12:53:20 PM) Me: sucking at this game
(12:53:21 PM) Devonin: You've done both those things.
(12:53:28 PM) Me: is not an insult of your intelligence
(12:53:37 PM) Me: stop for a minute
(12:53:37 PM) Devonin: You've insulted me, in this game, personally, distinct from anything you said about the game itself.
(12:53:49 PM) Me: dude
(12:53:55 PM) Me: I said you're bad at this game
(12:54:04 PM) Me: not "told you that you are a moron"
(12:54:07 PM) Devonin: Right, and I disagree, since I think you're a wolf.
(12:54:28 PM) Me: you said yourself you're not cut out for this game
(12:54:40 PM) Devonin: *chuckle*
(12:54:42 PM) Devonin: You're fun Afro.

arfo wants devonin dead but is voting for manti to try to survive the lynch.

**A2P** · 11-20-2009, 09:04 PM

Me = Afro

just to clarify

**A2P** · 11-20-2009, 09:05 PM

I mean you could probably figure it out easy but I thought I'd clear up some confusion

**devonin** · 11-20-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

arfo wants devonin dead but is voting for manti to try to survive the lynch.

I'm not sure why that translates to you also voting for Manti.

Afro is clearly grasping at straws to try and not die because he knows he's in trouble.

Explain to me how he can be sure Manti and I are working together, -and- be sure that A2P and YOU are wolves, when there's only three wolves in the game?

More to the point, Afro is stating, with authority that he is SURE you are a wolf, and is only voting for Manti to try and stay alive...so you're going to help him stay alive knowing he thinks youre a wolf? Explain that too please.

**devonin** · 11-20-2009, 09:15 PM

And Iggy, I didn't defend the wolf kill on Freaky. Let alone "Too much"

What I did was say "I woudln't just conclude 'durr wolves are dumm' when we have no real information as to -why- they picked him" that's all. That's not defending the kill, that's not even commenting on the kill, that's commenting on just -deciding- exactly what their motives were with no real basis for that decision.

FictionJunction · 11-20-2009, 10:38 PM

I don't take arfo seriously 80% of the time.

do you really think I'm taking him seriously now?

FictionJunction · 11-20-2009, 10:38 PM

I never said my vote was solid. I'll change it. I'm just giving arfo some peace of mind so he can lay off my back.

**iggymatrixcounter** · 11-21-2009, 04:02 AM

After doing my super analytical overview of the thread so far, I've come up with new info that I found interesting.

Afro changes his vote from devo to manti. At first I did not notice this, but other than his usual "causing a reaction" excuse, he has no apparent reason to do so. I think afro is the kind of guy that would sacrifice himself for the team but only if it was going to prove something 100%. So in this game I see him playing a more, "I know I'm not a wolf so I'm going to survive." type of style. Which if this was the case, his vote change should have gone to viccia which would have given her three votes and afro only two, thus saving himself from being in the lead. Perhaps he thought he could get more people to try to lynch manti but I still find it curious that if afro is playing the, "I'm better alive than dead" card, that he wouldn't think that that rule would also apply to manti as well. So he must 1) REALLY think manti is a wolf 2) found some reason to think devon is not a wolf or 3) vic is a wolf and his vote on manti causes a three way tie between himself, vic, and manti (hoping that manti gets more votes). I'm inclined to think the first but the third just fits in my own world as well.

@afro: care to explain why the vote change to manti was significant enough to leave devo, someone who you talked about as suspicious the whole day. Also somewhere in your posts you mention fiction and a2p as "definitely wolves" and yet offer no vote to really support it. Your suspects imo are usually all over the place, but your final vote is usually sound and I'm having problems accepting it (and don't say it's day1 and it doesn't matter, that's not my point, it's more of why your vote on manti doesn't really reflect your best suspicion based on your posts).

In either case, I still do not think afro is my best wolf target because if he is, then vic has a good chance of being one as well, which would explain why afro did not switch to vic to save himself from being in the lead and instead casued a three way tie. I'd rather see her go over afro... sorry vic it's not personal.

The other side of this coin goes something like this. If afro is a human, then I truly think that at least 1 wolf has already voted for him. And for some reason I can see manti being that wolf. He likes to take more chances and I could see him starting a "lynch mob" against afro. (manti was the first to vote for afro, and devo kind of follows with logic on how afro could be a wolf.... no reflection on devo imo but more of how manti's plan to start a mob against afro worked).

Again, with all that being said, I still think everyone should take a step back and look at the fact that the only people that are getting votes are those who are talking: afro, devon, manti, fiction (but only a safety), and vic (she has 10 posts.... most of which are not useful but it shows that she is active in the game). If someone active gets lynched today, you will kill activity because, unless you're a strong, active player, you will have no reason to post because of a risk of being lynched for it.

We should also complain about people like emerald and maki (because I do think they have even posted yet but I have heard that they have had conversations.) And people like freezin, lito, tupa, and gun of which they have all posted very little, have the potential to be active but are either choosing not to be or are at a risk of being killed by the host.

a2p, u84, and temote (if in fact he actually dies) I think also need some attention imo because they are fairly active (implying that their interest could be because they have an actual role) but would fly under the radar for DAYS because they are active enough to not be inactive but not so active that they draw votes to themselves.

Yes day1 has little to go off of, yes people over think at times, but do not let someone else make you believe that killing just ANYONE is ok since it's day1.

And we should all bombard syhto to give us a deadline to day1, not knowing really hurts my planning as to when I would want to commit to being online.

Oh and voting chart:

AFRO (4) manti, a2p, devo, fiction
VIC (2) iggy, tupa
MANTI (2) vic, afro
DEVON (0) (afro)
FICTION (1) lito

(needs to vote: freezin, emerald, gun, u84, maki, temote)

I predict at least 1 host kill will occur today, other than temote... *sigh*

**Makilaz** · 11-21-2009, 06:36 AM

afro

too tired to go into detail, but most of it has already been argued to death.

Afrobean · 11-21-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin

Is there an "Outside the game info" rule that might be coming into play here? If they were posting on not this forum, and not on AIM to another player, can that stuff even count?

Not unless I'm getting info from someone who isn't playing. So long as the people are playing, any medium of conversation is acceptable. AIM, MSN, IRC. Why wouldn't a message board be viable forum of discussion?

The only exception is IRL, I think. That was definitely made a rule back when I played that people who knew each other IRL couldn't play together because it gave them an unfair advantage of being able to read body language. You guys probably don't enforce this anyway though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin

I'm very sure that afro is a wolf

That chat we had yesterday doesn't indicate this. You say it, but your words belie your true intent. The real situation is that you're afraid of me. You're afraid of what I might say or do. You claim unfounded confidence that is very out of character considering all of the other things you have said (question me for saying "killing freaky was a dumb move for the wolves", but then turn around and have utmost confidence without good reason?).

If you want to lynch me, whatever. I can totally see why you would want me dead, regardless of your role. Kind of foolish for a green to try to lynch a green, but I can totally understand you thinking I'm a loose cannon and that I'd be more harm than good for the team. I myself have gotten behind plenty of lynches where I figured the person being lynched was probably green, but it was justified in one way or another. For example, last game, I figured makilaz was probably green, but I figured he was a decent enough process-of-elimination choice. Prior to that, I voted to lynch A2P even though I had great confidence in his being green. I did it to save myself. There are plenty of good reasons for a person to vote to lynch a green and only one of them requires you being red.

So just ****ing admit it. Don't lie through your teeth. Don't claim confidence that you clearly don't have. Just say "I think Afro is dangerous to the team even as a human". At least that would be honest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymatrixcounter

That's not entirely true, do not underestimate me afro. I can pick out wolves with better than random picking.

I know. That's why I said "isn't much more of a threat". You're more valuable as a human than most active players, just not WAY more valuable (which is what you'd be if this was a blue-centric game, I'd say).

Quote:

If you want to find wolves, do not look in the spotlight, wolves are 80% hidden but under the radar. It takes a special kind of skill to be a wolf in the lime light. They always get caught or slip up or something. For instance, most of the votes are based off what the loudest people are saying. Look at people's posts, but also look at their lack of posts, how they post compared to other times they post. More wolves find themselves being on the brink of being inactive at times.

How many times has Manti posted so far??

Quote:

Then you really shouldn't vote for manti, he also falls into the same, better alive than dead, category as you. Even if you do not like to admit it, he's a good player.

You're more valuable than Manti. He's no more helpful to the cause than any other active player, and if you notice, he hasn't been active either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

arfo wants devonin dead but is voting for manti to try to survive the lynch.

Not exactly bro. I want you dead. I want to attack devonin. And I'm voting Manti because:

#1: relatively high up on my list
#2: save myself
#3: manti isn't even being active
#4: manti's strength is absent in this game

And edu, man, don't think I didn't notice that you, when trying to get me off your back didn't immediately say you'd vote manti. You mentioned a few other things you'd do, but not one of them was joining me with a vote on manti. You didn't until after I said that's what I'd like to see from you. Very much of a connection in mind. Seems to me that you were afraid to sacrifice your partner, but you eventually decided it was worth it to get me in your pocket.

But the thing I don't see is why you'd bother trying to get me in your pocket when you're going to wolf me tonight if I manage to survive the day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin

Afro is clearly grasping at straws to try and not die because he knows he's in trouble.

lmao you are so bad at this game

Voting to try to avoid being lynched isn't explicitly red behavior. It's something that ALL players do.

Quote:

Explain to me how he can be sure Manti and I are working together, -and- be sure that A2P and YOU are wolves, when there's only three wolves in the game?

I've basically dropped my case on a2p completely now. After talking with you, then talking with fiction, I'm thinking you+fiction+manti.

Which fits into my theory of Syhto cherry-picking the roles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin

What I did was say "I woudln't just conclude 'durr wolves are dumm' when we have no real information as to -why- they picked him" that's all.

I didn't conclude that either.

I said it was a dumb kill.

Which it is.

Had they left freaky alive, I would have been hammering him all day. He probably would have been lynched.

What you're referring to is the insults I peppered in to see if I'd get a rise out of anyone, or get anyone defending the kill. You defended it and were personally offended by it (while manti was just offended by it if I recall). In the chat log, you even said I called you a moron. Never happened. I called the wolves "idiots" if I recall, but I never personally insulted you. I've told you that you're really bad at this game, but if you would equate that to a personal insult, then I really don't know what to think about you personally anymore. I don't see how anyone truly intelligent could take such great offense when I tell you you're bad at a game that you readily admit to not excelling at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FictionJunction

I never said my vote was solid. I'll change it. I'm just giving arfo some peace of mind so he can lay off my back.

Why try to get me to lay off your back if you're just going to ensure my death at the last minute anyway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymatrixcounter

Which if this was the case, his vote change should have gone to viccia which would have given her three votes and afro only two, thus saving himself from being in the lead.

I haven't any faith in viccica being a wolf. I've got a lot of faith in manti being a wolf.

Quote:

I still find it curious that if afro is playing the, "I'm better alive than dead" card, that he wouldn't think that that rule would also apply to manti as well.

Manti's strength lies in abusing alliances to process-of-elimination catch wolves.

He has no greater worth to the team in this game than any other reasonably intelligent and active player.

He isn't some great god in my eyes. I'm not going to abstain from voting for him when I have confidence in his being a wolf because I don't feel as though he is worth more alive than dead. A bit of a double standard, I suppose, but just look at the simple situation: manti is out of his element, and he's not even being especially active or helpful.

Quote:

So he must 1) REALLY think manti is a wolf 2) found some reason to think devon is not a wolf or 3) vic is a wolf and his vote on manti causes a three way tie between himself, vic, and manti (hoping that manti gets more votes).

I'd sacrifice a wolf partner in a second to save myself. Actually, I think I have done this in the past. Please don't look at me avoiding viccica in favor of manti and think that we might be wolves together because of this. If you want to look for red motives in my vote on manti, try telling it as though I'm just looking to get revenge for a few games back where manti was a red and I couldn't get him lynched. It would be really sweet as a red to get manti lynched, and during day 1, no less.

Quote:

@afro: care to explain why the vote change to manti was significant enough to leave devo, someone who you talked about as suspicious the whole day. Also somewhere in your posts you mention fiction and a2p as "definitely wolves" and yet offer no vote to really support it. Your suspects imo are usually all over the place, but your final vote is usually sound and I'm having problems accepting it (and don't say it's day1 and it doesn't matter, that's not my point, it's more of why your vote on manti doesn't really reflect your best suspicion based on your posts).

I was going almost totally on gut with a2p.

With manti, we have him randomly attacking me, then going inactive. Plus gut.

With fiction we have him voting (read: bandwagoning) on me with minimal hesitation. This is quite out of character for him. Look at last game where he hesitated to vote for u84 even when it was quite clear that u84 had faked a log. He didn't bother voting for him until after the guy was already instalynched. Regardless of the fact that the lynch ended up being a bad one, it was built on good reason, and the guy went to lengths to abstain. In this case, there is minimal-- or, really-- no reason and yet he didn't seem to have a problem pushing me along toward the gallows. And on day 1. I'd think he of all people would recognize the fact that I shouldn't be lynched so early in the game with so little reason. Notice also that he is the sort of person that would intentionally kill freaky, knowing it was a bad choice, and do it for a laff.

With devonin, there's the inconsistencies in his both demanding solid evidence when I say "the wolf kill was bad" but then turning around and saying he is COMPLETELY confident that I'm a wolf with no evidence. The reason he is voting for me is that he's afraid of me, not that he is COMPLETELY confident that I'm a wolf. I can understand why a green would be afraid of me getting them lynched, but I think a red has even more reason to be scared of me, since that's who I'm aiming for. But even apart from that, there's that ENTIRE log fiction posted for me. I'll begin a massive dissection of it in just a moment.

Quote:

AFRO (4) manti, a2p, devo, fiction
VIC (2) iggy, tupa
MANTI (2) vic, afro
DEVON (0) (afro)
FICTION (1) lito

Fiction moved his vote off of me and onto manti. That would have been KiB with me and manti, but makilaz popped up out of nowhere to twist the knife in my back.

Afrobean · 11-21-2009, 08:23 AM

Everyone HAS TO read this. Skim the lengths of texts if you must, but pay attention to the specific points I've notated.

And apologies about the line lengths. Devonin likes to make long-ass sentences rather than spreading a compound idea across multiple lines.

Code:

(12:17:20 PM) Devonin: Need some help counting to 3, mr wolf?
(12:17:34 PM) Me: lol
(12:17:50 PM) Devonin: Well, you seem to be having some issues with 3 not equalling 4
(12:18:31 PM) Me: didnt I use the word "or" when talking about you and manti in my last post?
(12:18:37 PM) Me: Im quite sure I used the word "or"
(12:18:41 PM) Devonin: You used 'and' in the previous one.
(12:18:46 PM) Devonin: So I guess you're getting less sure as you go.
(12:19:02 PM) Me: at this point im sure about fiction and a2p
(12:19:06 PM) Me: that leaves only one slot
(12:19:13 PM) Devonin: You were sure about manti and I being in cahoots.
(12:19:21 PM) Me: .................................
(12:19:26 PM) Me: you are retarded lmao
(12:19:28 PM) Me: yeah
(12:19:30 PM) Devonin: So you're either wrong about manti and I being in cahoots, or you're wrong about fic and a2p being wolves.
(12:19:30 PM) Me: my mind can NEVER change

[At this point, Devonin seems to be attacking me because my mind isn't as resolute as I often make it sound. I'd think that he'd be glad to see that I'm not as hardheaded as that, but instead he thinks this is a point to attack me with.]

(12:19:37 PM) Me: I am thinking now
(12:19:40 PM) Me: that I was probably wrong before
(12:19:55 PM) Me: because of new things Ive seen which changed my opinion about fiction and a2p
(12:20:01 PM) Me: well
(12:20:03 PM) Me: not "changed"
(12:20:06 PM) Devonin: As a game-relevant aside, and I already posted about it
(12:20:07 PM) Me: but "cemented"
(12:20:16 PM) Devonin: But can you use posts from another forum that wasn't game related in the game?
(12:20:28 PM) Me: you can use outside conversations
(12:20:32 PM) Me: whats the difference
(12:20:44 PM) Devonin: I'm just curious, as a rules thing.
(12:20:56 PM) Devonin: I guess really they just shouldn't have said anything about the game outside the game?

[Yeah, talking outside of the game shouldn't be allowed. Irony in the statement comes from the fact that Devonin and I were conversing outside of the game at the time.]

(12:21:04 PM) Me: they didnt say much
(12:21:09 PM) Me: but they didnt need to
(12:21:17 PM) Me: but
(12:21:31 PM) Me: its not as though all private discussion HAS TO be readily available to public
(12:21:34 PM) Devonin: I don't even know what posts you're talking about, but "greens rarely get invested in the game" is a pretty ****ty reason to be "sure" that they're wolves now.
(12:21:47 PM) Me: whats the difference whether private discussion happens on AIM, an AIM chatroom, IRC or a forum?
(12:22:00 PM) Devonin: Maybe they just both think you're a wolf and wanted to see you get lynched to wipe your smug grin off?
(12:22:09 PM) Me: lol
(12:22:17 PM) Me: thats not at all in fiction's character as a human
(12:22:26 PM) Me: go have a look at the last couple of games
(12:22:27 PM) Devonin: Oh, it's got nothing to do with in-game roles.
(12:22:29 PM) Me: and look at his voting style
(12:22:36 PM) Devonin: You're just a smug arrogant jerk when it comes to TWG
(12:22:44 PM) Me: then compare his sudden reach to get me of all people killed day 1
(12:23:06 PM) Me: is smugness something I should be lynched for??
(12:23:15 PM) Me: I thought the game was about lynching wolves, not lynching jerks

[Notice here that he goes from attacking me for being smug (not something to get lynched over) to stating flatly that I'm a wolf. He realized that I caught him in pointing out that character faults are not something to be voting on, even though he may well be doing it himself, or at least thinks that others voting for me are doing it.]

(12:23:16 PM) Devonin: No, being a wolf is something you should be lynched for.
(12:23:30 PM) Devonin: And being a wolf who is also constantly claiming to basically get anybody lynched that they want, you need to be lynched -right now-
(12:23:44 PM) Me: I never said I could get anybody I wanted lynched
(12:23:53 PM) Devonin: You imply it all the time.
(12:24:04 PM) Me: just that if I had something on a person and I wanted to get them lynched, I probably could especially on day 1 when I have other people supporting me already
(12:24:08 PM) Devonin: You make a big deal about what word choice implies about people.
(12:24:19 PM) Devonin: Your word choice is that of an arrogant jerk who thinks he's better than everyone else.
(12:24:28 PM) Me: I AM BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE
(12:24:32 PM) Devonin: See?
(12:24:33 PM) Me: SUCK MY DICKCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
(12:24:41 PM) Devonin: And you wonder why people think you're a smug jerk?
(12:24:52 PM) Me: I never wondered anything about that
(12:24:55 PM) Me: I only wonder
(12:24:58 PM) Me: why people are being stupid
(12:25:00 PM) Me: and trying to kill me
(12:25:01 PM) Me: I mean
(12:25:05 PM) Me: it makes sense for wolves
(12:25:11 PM) Me: but I know all four of you cant ALL be wolves
(12:25:19 PM) Devonin: You know, if you get lynched, and you are a wolf, that this will all seem very hilarious to everybody else.
(12:25:38 PM) Me: Id laugh too
(12:25:41 PM) Me: but alas
(12:25:45 PM) Me: not gonna happen
(12:25:47 PM) Devonin: And the degree to which you're insisting that the wolves can only be frigging morons will be even more funny.
(12:25:54 PM) Me: I didnt say that

[Case in point: I said that the kill was a bad choice. Then I mentioned a couple of times that the wolves were stupid. A seeded comment to see if it would get a response from anyone, and sure enough, I got it.]

(12:26:01 PM) Devonin: You implied it in your word choice.
(12:26:12 PM) Me: I said it was a bad kill choice
(12:26:15 PM) Devonin: people "implying things in their word choice" is how you make every decision.
(12:26:19 PM) Devonin: You said it was stupid also.
(12:26:20 PM) Me: then INTENTIONALLY baited a response by insulting the wolves
(12:26:22 PM) Devonin: Not just 'bad'
(12:26:36 PM) Me: and who responded to my insult
(12:26:39 PM) Me: but YOU AND MANTI lol
(12:26:46 PM) Devonin: Me and Manti!
(12:26:49 PM) Me: YOU AND MANTI
(12:26:53 PM) Devonin: And you KNOW apparantly now, that one of us isn't a wolf.
(12:27:00 PM) Me: maybe Im wrong about one of fiction/a2p :\
(12:27:02 PM) Devonin: So oh snap, a human responded to your attempt to bait
(12:27:09 PM) Devonin: Must not have been a good attempt then.
(12:27:17 PM) Devonin: But you're "Sure" about them.
(12:27:34 PM) Devonin: Because they posted on another forum that they were enjoying this game, they must be wolves.  Only wolves enjoy the game?
(12:27:42 PM) Devonin: You seem to be enjoying it.  This is "when you thrive" isn't it?
(12:27:59 PM) Me: I enjoy being green
(12:28:01 PM) Me: most dont

[Side note: fiction, a2p, do you enjoy being green?]

(12:29:14 PM) Devonin: When you get lynched and are a wolf, I'll be enjoying being green.  

[A little on the nose to say "I'll be enjoying being green." A little over-the-top. Could have easily instead said, "When you lynched and are a wolf, I'll be enjoying it." Because otherwise, he's saying that he'd enjoy being green, apparently only if I was lynched as a red. Really weird wording.]

(12:29:28 PM) Me: well if this is the last game you're gonna play
(12:29:32 PM) Me: you wont see that happen :\
(12:29:46 PM) Me: you want to see me lynched as a red though
(12:29:49 PM) Devonin: But having a wolf try to talk everyone into lynching you when you know you are a green, that's a little frustrating and makes the game not so fun.

[The irony. It hurts... I love it. Actually, it's ****ing terrible because I'm the one about to be lynched while that jerk is sitting high and dry with not a single vote on him!]

(12:29:53 PM) Me: there are plenty of old games to read
(12:30:08 PM) Me: one time
(12:30:10 PM) Me: tass was a wolf
(12:30:13 PM) Me: and I knew it
(12:30:18 PM) Me: and I called him on it
(12:30:20 PM) Devonin: Afro, I don't actually care about your anecdotes.
(12:30:23 PM) Devonin: I can go read them if I want to.
(12:30:24 PM) Me: and he got me lynched >:|
(12:30:53 PM) Devonin: So if you get me lynched, we'll have duplicated that precisely.
(12:31:04 PM) Me: Im not voting for you anymore, am I?
(12:31:11 PM) Me: a little over defensive??
(12:31:20 PM) Devonin: No, but I'm still on afro's magic list of wild guesses that are still right just enough to brag about.

[Am I bragging in my boastful claims? Bragging wouldn't begin until postgame, where my calls are confirmed or rejected. If he thinks it's something to brag over, it must be right though, huh?]

(12:31:23 PM) Me: Im not even grouping you with my "sure" group
(12:31:36 PM) Me: if you want
(12:31:42 PM) Me: I could probably bump a2p

[after completing this conversation and chatting with fiction, this actually happened lol]

(12:31:44 PM) Devonin: Well, you're grouping me in "And one of these two"
(12:31:48 PM) Me: since he's almost all gut for me
(12:31:56 PM) Me: I could put you up there with manti and fiction
(12:32:05 PM) Devonin: I'll even be generous and say you're grouping me in "And probably one of these two"
(12:32:48 PM) Devonin: Well, your reasons for all 4 of us are pretty sketchy, so you're naturally free to change your mind and flip-flop without looking like you actually have no idea, and still be able to claim to have called it retroactively if you were even partway right.
(12:33:11 PM) Me: pretty sketchy lmao
(12:33:19 PM) Me: why am i being voted for again?
(12:33:24 PM) Devonin: "They posted on another forum when the site was down that they were upset the site was down"
(12:33:30 PM) Devonin: That's not sketchy to you?
(12:33:41 PM) Me: HOW ABOUT THIS
(12:33:43 PM) Me: ignore that completely
(12:33:47 PM) Me: look at fiction's vote on me
(12:33:53 PM) Me: and compare his nature in voting for me here
(12:33:54 PM) Me: on day 1
(12:33:56 PM) Devonin: If I ignore that completely, you're now accusing them both for no reason.
(12:33:58 PM) Me: when Im close to death
(12:34:01 PM) Me: to last game
(12:34:06 PM) Me: when he wouldn't vote for makilaz
(12:34:12 PM) Me: even though he was the one that started on him
(12:34:19 PM) Me: or at the end when we lynched u84 for faking a log
(12:34:27 PM) Me: he wouldnt vote for u84 until after insta already happened
(12:34:34 PM) Devonin: I guess it depends on how close to death everyone thinks you actually are.
(12:34:39 PM) Me: 4 votes
(12:34:44 PM) Me: more than enough for a day 1 lynch
(12:34:53 PM) Me: even 3 is pretty damn close
(12:35:02 PM) Me: which is what I was at when fiction voted for me if I recall
(12:35:37 PM) Devonin: If you're a wolf, the logical thing to assume is that you're going to be accusing humans of being wolves.  However, there was motion towards lynching you, as I recall, before Fic/A2P even posted anything
(12:36:02 PM) Me: who was it that started that
(12:36:04 PM) Me: was it manti
(12:36:09 PM) Me: or you
(12:36:19 PM) Me: do you recall?

[Iggy says it was manti.]

(12:36:26 PM) Devonin: Motion towards lynching you? I think it was me, I'm not sure of the exact chronology and the site looks down again
(12:36:32 PM) Me: yeah
(12:36:52 PM) Devonin: But when you turned my questioning your logic into accusing me of being a wolf when I know I'm not, that would have been when I started suspecting you, yes.

["When I know I'm not". Again, a little on-the-nose. I know a green knows they're green. You don't have to keep telling me this, especially since no matter how you word it, I'm just going to see it as a bad lie.]

(12:37:09 PM) Me: you were questioning something that neednt be questioned
(12:37:15 PM) Me: without expressing a better alternative
(12:37:24 PM) Me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_u...inty_and_doubt
(12:37:25 PM) Me: read this
(12:37:29 PM) Me: that is what you were doing
(12:37:33 PM) Devonin: I know what the term means Afro, and you're wrong.

[I'm wrong? What is achieved by questioning my statement of "Killing Freaky was a bad idea"? It's an appeal to fear. It makes it appear that maybe killing Freaky WAS a good idea. But no matter how you slice it, I would have pushed to get the kid lynched today, so in wolfing him, the wolves gave us a shot to actually hit a red today rather than allowing me to plow forward on a green.]

(12:37:39 PM) Devonin: WHat I was doing is called "Being Devonin"

[Notice that appeal to fear is a fallacy. He shoots my reasonable idea down without submitting an equally or more reasonable option. He does this in attempt to make me seem less credible, not because the statement I put forward was illogical or unreasoned, but just to make me appear questionable in general, even when the idea I'm putting forth needn't be questioned.]

(12:37:41 PM) Devonin: And you know it.
(12:37:44 PM) Me: so
(12:37:52 PM) Me: you spread FUD in everyday life
(12:37:53 PM) Me: ??
(12:38:06 PM) Devonin: Uncertainty is one of the most valuable tools in life.

[You heard it here, folks! Devbro is a FUDer in real life. Weird.]

(12:38:14 PM) Devonin: l2philosophy
(12:38:18 PM) Me: all it does is scare people
(12:38:21 PM) Me: scared people are stupid
(12:38:28 PM) Devonin: I'd say it's the opposite way.

[Yeah, people are known for being most rational when they're scared. Really dude?]

(12:38:29 PM) Me: thihngs which are reasonable
(12:38:33 PM) Devonin: Only stupid people get scared by uncertainty
(12:38:38 PM) Me: shouldnt be considered so uncertain
(12:38:41 PM) Me: things which are reasonable
(12:38:46 PM) Devonin: That, and people who are bull****ting us and are worried about their claims being submitted to scrutiny

[Where's this laser-focused scrutiny when it comes to all these votes on me, then? I think you need to get your systems calibrated, man.]

(12:38:46 PM) Me: should be admitted as reasonable
(12:38:54 PM) Me: and not questioned unless a MORE reasonable alternative is given

[Please. Someone tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that reasonable ideas should be shot down even without a more reasonable alternative being given. If no more reasonable answer can be given to a question, why question the answer that had already been given?]

(12:38:58 PM) Me: or at least
(12:38:59 PM) Devonin: Those people also make a big deal out of being questioned.
(12:39:05 PM) Me: AN EQUALLY reasonable alternative
(12:40:10 PM) Devonin: You just dont' understand philosophy or me, or how formal logic works, but I don't fault you for that.

[I know enough to know that you're inconsistent in what requires solid evidence and what doesn't (wolf kill being bad requires hard evidence, me being a wolf does not), and abusing FUD for no greater reason than to attempt to discredit me.]

(12:40:21 PM) Devonin: In fact, questioning something even if you have no better alternative is still a valuable tool.

["The Earth revolves around the Sun!" says Mr. White. "No, it doesn't," says Mr. Black. "But science and reason indicate it is so. What is the case if not this?" responds Mr. White. Mr. Black calls back, "i dunno lol".]

(12:40:24 PM) Me: formal logic isnt important here
(12:40:30 PM) Me: this is an inherently illogical situation we are in
(12:40:36 PM) Me: there are WEREWOLVES among us
(12:40:39 PM) Devonin: I'll be even more general: "Questioning -anything- is a valuable tool"
(12:40:40 PM) Me: how do we catch them?
(12:40:45 PM) Me: BY MURDERING TOWNSPEOPLE ONE BY ONE
(12:41:34 PM) Devonin: And if we're going to murder people for reasons we admit are sketchy at best, we'd best question those reasons as much as possible to try and minimize the chance of accidentally killing humans
(12:41:55 PM) Me: right
(12:41:59 PM) Me: question why you would kill me
(12:42:00 PM) Me: please
(12:42:36 PM) Me: dont sit there and say "question things" when I explain the most reasonable reason for why freaky was wolfed
(12:42:45 PM) Me: then turn and say "omg u should die today BECAUSE I SAY SOOOOOOOOOO"
(12:42:52 PM) Devonin: Because the combination of your claims to being able to get lynches done, in conjunction with the fact that your judgement is clearly flawed either because you're a wolf, or just aren't as good at the game as you think you are, make you too dangerous to the human team to keep alive.

[First, being able to get lynches done is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if my aim is misguided or simply wrong, but that's a completely separate point. Second, my judgment is not "clearly flawed", especially if I was a wolf. My "judgment" would be the best judgment of all, knowing who is and who is not a wolf. Wolves don't have incorrect JUDGMENT, they just LIE. But "I'm not as good at the game as I think I am"? Really? Because I might make a single mistake? I make plenty of mistakes, every game. My record for the last couple of games is about .5. Not a bad record considering random chance is .25 (and I'm sure plenty of players would be under .25 if they figured theirs), but that still means that my ultimate calls have been wrong HALF OF THE TIME. No one among us is free from making mistakes... I still don't know how we got that game a few back where we nailed 4 wolves in 3 days. I'm still completely dumbfounded by that.

But finally, notice that he ends with "too dangerous to the human team to keep alive". He says this apart from the idea of me being a wolf. The implication is that even if I'm green, I need to be lynched. That's bull****.]

(12:43:06 PM) Me: lmao
(12:43:14 PM) Me: IM A DANGEROUS HUMAN TO KEEP ALIVE
(12:43:18 PM) Me: THAT MAKES SENSE
(12:43:26 PM) Devonin: l2read plx
(12:43:40 PM) Devonin: Jesus, does this random red herring all caps **** actually distract other players?
(12:44:04 PM) Me: i use caps because italics takes longer to format
(12:44:11 PM) Me: and sarcasm easily goes missed otherwise
(12:44:14 PM) Me: but seriously man
(12:44:19 PM) Me: me being "dangerous to the human team"
(12:44:21 PM) Devonin: So the part where you said you were a human was sarcastic?

[lmfao]

(12:44:23 PM) Me: is not a reason to lynch me
(12:44:27 PM) Me: I lynched our seer last game
(12:44:33 PM) Me: I was "dangerous to the human team"
(12:44:36 PM) Me: but thats not why we lost
(12:44:48 PM) Me: and I certainly didnt lynch u84 as the seer because I was red
(12:44:55 PM) Devonin: No, but you lynched the seer, so again, perhaps you aren't as good at the game as you think?

[Uh, considering I caught the dude with a fake log and correctly identified him as being the one who had faked the log, I'd say that if anything, that speaks to my competence in this game more than anything else. The failure here is why the hell u84 faked a log in the first place.]

(12:45:00 PM) Me: uh
(12:45:06 PM) Me: u84 faked a log
(12:45:14 PM) Me: he faked a log to try to convince me to lynch syhto
(12:45:17 PM) Devonin: Either way, I don't want you leading lynch decisions.  You're either a wolf, or off your game this game.

[Hey man, I think you should get your transmission looked at. That was a really hard gear shift just now.]

(12:45:20 PM) Me: when I was already going to vote for her anyway
(12:45:35 PM) Devonin: And so if you're "so good" that people will follow your leads, I personally think your leads are faulty this game, for either reason.
(12:45:37 PM) Me: in OTHER WORDS
(12:45:41 PM) Me: you dont actually think im a wolf
(12:45:48 PM) Devonin: No, I think you're a wolf.
(12:45:52 PM) Me: you jsut want me to die because you're afraid of me doing something you think is wrong
(12:46:23 PM) Devonin: I'm willing to admit the possibility that I'm wrong, though I'm more than above averagely sure you are.

[So in the time between finishing this conversation and him posting yesterday, he went from "I'll admit the possibility that I'm wrong" to "I am completely confident". Amazing. I mean, my mind changes just as easily too, but usually only when I have some sort of new stimulus.]

(12:46:39 PM) Me: lol
(12:46:49 PM) Devonin: I'm the most sure you're a wolf than any other player.
(12:46:50 PM) Me: you attack me for sketchy logic
(12:46:52 PM) Devonin: Thus you get my vote anyway.
(12:46:58 PM) Me: then employ sketchy logic to vote me dead
(12:47:06 PM) Devonin: Oh yeah, "Dev's voting to lynch the person he thinks is most likely a wolf out of all the players" really sketchy
(12:47:08 PM) Me: if you just said "im voting you beause I fear what you might do"
(12:47:10 PM) Me: Id buy that
(12:47:21 PM) Me: but I dont buy that you are that confident that im red
(12:47:24 PM) Me: youre not that stupid
(12:47:24 PM) Devonin: I should vote for someone I think is a human instead?
(12:47:51 PM) Devonin: Well, if you're accusing me of being a wolf, there's really only 1 of 3 possibilities going on there.
(12:48:00 PM) Me: the way you speak, it sounds as though you're just afraid of who I might lynch
(12:48:09 PM) Me: not that you truthfully think Im a wolf
(12:48:10 PM) Me: but
(12:48:17 PM) Me: you as a red would be afraid of who I might lynch
(12:48:24 PM) Me: especially since I had previously voted for you
(12:48:31 PM) Devonin: If I think you're either a wolf, or just making really bad calls, in either case, it woudln't be a bad decision for me to try and get you lynched.
(12:48:54 PM) Devonin: Because leaving a wolf alive is bad, and leaving someone with a lot of percieved clout who is making bad calls alive is also bad.

[Notice here that he says I'm making "bad calls". The only call I've made thus far that he'd have any ability to comment on the accuracy of would be himself. But even so, he seems to KNOW that my other calls (fiction, manti, and ostensibly a2p) are ALSO bad calls. He "KNOWS" this!] 

(12:49:01 PM) Devonin: Less bad, but still bad.
(12:49:07 PM) Me: we all make bad calls
(12:49:12 PM) Me: the only difference is
(12:49:19 PM) Me: I have confidence to express myself
(12:49:30 PM) Devonin: The only difference is that I KNOW for a FACT that you're making bad calls.
(12:49:39 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
(12:49:40 PM) Devonin: Whereas anybody else doesn't actually know for a fact.
(12:49:41 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
(12:49:44 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
(12:49:45 PM) Devonin: Yes I know.
(12:49:54 PM) Me: How do you know that Im wrong about fiction?
(12:49:56 PM) Me: a2p?
(12:49:58 PM) Me: manti?
(12:50:02 PM) Devonin: Did I say I knew that?

[Yes, you did. In saying that I'm making "bad calls" you are referring to more than just the one call I've made against you.]

(12:50:08 PM) Me: you said you knew I was making bad calls
(12:50:13 PM) Devonin: I know you're making bad calls because you called me as a wolf.
(12:50:15 PM) Me: the only "call" you "know" about
(12:50:17 PM) Devonin: And I know that's incorrect
(12:50:17 PM) Me: is when I accuse you
(12:50:25 PM) Me: one bad call
(12:50:30 PM) Me: is not making bad calls
(12:50:33 PM) Me: and
(12:50:35 PM) Me: like I said
(12:50:37 PM) Me: we all make bad calls
(12:50:52 PM) Me: rarely is there a game
(12:50:56 PM) Me: where wolves are lynched every day
(12:50:58 PM) Devonin: Sure we do, but when the person making bad calls is also going on about how easily they pursuade people to follow their calls.
(12:50:59 PM) Me: and not a single human is lynched
(12:51:02 PM) Me: it is inevitable
(12:51:24 PM) Me: there wouldnt have been much persuasion necessary
(12:51:35 PM) Devonin: Again, whether you're a wolf, or just doing poorly at the game this game, I feel you're a valid lynch target.

[See this? See what he said? "Whether you're a wolf or not... you're a valid lynch target." Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Let's all lynch humans and feel good about it just because we don't like the way they play!]

(12:52:09 PM) Me: your reasoning isnt bad
(12:52:15 PM) Me: but Im not some throwaway ****
(12:52:22 PM) Devonin: Is this where you pat me on the head and tell me how good you are at the game?
(12:52:25 PM) Devonin: Because you've done that already.
(12:52:28 PM) Me: if youre wrong, you're throwing away a valuable asset
(12:52:33 PM) Me: becuase you fear I might make a mistake
(12:52:36 PM) Devonin: You've also punched me in the face and told me I was a moron, and how good you are at the game

[I had never once called him any insult. In a previous conversation, I told him repeatedly how bad he is at the game. Closest thing to an insult I ever gave him.]

(12:52:47 PM) Devonin: So you can see why I'm not exactly interested in hearing it at this point.
(12:52:52 PM) Me: only person Ive insulted
(12:52:54 PM) Me: is the wolves
(12:52:54 PM) Me: gg
(12:53:01 PM) Devonin: Um...no.
(12:53:05 PM) Me: ive repeatedly said
(12:53:08 PM) Me: you're smarter than this
(12:53:13 PM) Devonin: Do you want me to go and copy/paste where you told me that I suck at this game?
(12:53:14 PM) Me: you're not stupid
(12:53:18 PM) Devonin: Where you told me I was not good at the game?
(12:53:20 PM) Me: sucking at this game
(12:53:21 PM) Devonin: You've done both those things.
(12:53:28 PM) Me: is not an insult of your intelligence
(12:53:37 PM) Me: stop for a minute
(12:53:37 PM) Devonin: You've insulted me, in this game, personally, distinct from anything you said about the game itself.
(12:53:49 PM) Me: dude
(12:53:55 PM) Me: I said you're bad at this game
(12:54:04 PM) Me: not "told you that you are a moron"
(12:54:07 PM) Devonin: Right, and I disagree, since I think you're a wolf.

[Convenient how he tries to switch back from me pointing out how wrong he is for being "u mad" to attacking me again.]

(12:54:28 PM) Me: you said yourself you're not cut out for this game

[He told me this repeatedly over AIM before signing up for this game. He said he played once and he wasn't able to adjust to the loose flying that's necessary. It's not his cup of tea because attacks need to be less resolute than he'd like. He doesn't like that the best attacks possible are the sorts of attacks I'm employing right in this very post. TWG is not the sort of game for him. Smart and logical don't always go hand in hand with social engineering, I guess.]

(12:54:40 PM) Devonin: *chuckle*
(12:54:42 PM) Devonin: You're fun Afro.

Syhto · 11-21-2009, 08:30 AM

quick post: phase will most likely end late tonight

**u84** · 11-21-2009, 08:58 AM

So, Afro, I read for like 5 minutes through that chat and saw I was only halfway. Didn't read the rest.

FictionJunction · 11-27-2009, 04:42 AM

hi twg

FreezinIce · 11-27-2009, 05:19 AM

A potentially great game cut down by technical issues.

Sigh...

hi fic =/

11-20-2009, 11:07 AM	#122
devonin Very Grave Indeed Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 40 Posts: 10,098	Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens tl;dr version: I'm very sure that afro is a wolf, and he's spending so much time bragging about how he can get anybody lynched that he wants, that he's simply too dangerous to keep around under those circumstances. I don't want a wolf being the one trying to lead lynch decisions.

11-20-2009, 09:04 PM	#127
A2P FFR Veteran Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: nah Age: 34 Posts: 3,127	Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens Me = Afro just to clarify

11-20-2009, 09:05 PM	#128
A2P FFR Veteran Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: nah Age: 34 Posts: 3,127	Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens I mean you could probably figure it out easy but I thought I'd clear up some confusion

11-20-2009, 09:15 PM	#130
devonin Very Grave Indeed Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 40 Posts: 10,098	Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens And Iggy, I didn't defend the wolf kill on Freaky. Let alone "Too much" What I did was say "I woudln't just conclude 'durr wolves are dumm' when we have no real information as to -why- they picked him" that's all. That's not defending the kill, that's not even commenting on the kill, that's commenting on just -deciding- exactly what their motives were with no real basis for that decision.

11-21-2009, 04:02 AM	#133
iggymatrixcounter FFR Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: OH Age: 37 Posts: 1,924	Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens After doing my super analytical overview of the thread so far, I've come up with new info that I found interesting. Afro changes his vote from devo to manti. At first I did not notice this, but other than his usual "causing a reaction" excuse, he has no apparent reason to do so. I think afro is the kind of guy that would sacrifice himself for the team but only if it was going to prove something 100%. So in this game I see him playing a more, "I know I'm not a wolf so I'm going to survive." type of style. Which if this was the case, his vote change should have gone to viccia which would have given her three votes and afro only two, thus saving himself from being in the lead. Perhaps he thought he could get more people to try to lynch manti but I still find it curious that if afro is playing the, "I'm better alive than dead" card, that he wouldn't think that that rule would also apply to manti as well. So he must 1) REALLY think manti is a wolf 2) found some reason to think devon is not a wolf or 3) vic is a wolf and his vote on manti causes a three way tie between himself, vic, and manti (hoping that manti gets more votes). I'm inclined to think the first but the third just fits in my own world as well. @afro: care to explain why the vote change to manti was significant enough to leave devo, someone who you talked about as suspicious the whole day. Also somewhere in your posts you mention fiction and a2p as "definitely wolves" and yet offer no vote to really support it. Your suspects imo are usually all over the place, but your final vote is usually sound and I'm having problems accepting it (and don't say it's day1 and it doesn't matter, that's not my point, it's more of why your vote on manti doesn't really reflect your best suspicion based on your posts). In either case, I still do not think afro is my best wolf target because if he is, then vic has a good chance of being one as well, which would explain why afro did not switch to vic to save himself from being in the lead and instead casued a three way tie. I'd rather see her go over afro... sorry vic it's not personal. The other side of this coin goes something like this. If afro is a human, then I truly think that at least 1 wolf has already voted for him. And for some reason I can see manti being that wolf. He likes to take more chances and I could see him starting a "lynch mob" against afro. (manti was the first to vote for afro, and devo kind of follows with logic on how afro could be a wolf.... no reflection on devo imo but more of how manti's plan to start a mob against afro worked). Again, with all that being said, I still think everyone should take a step back and look at the fact that the only people that are getting votes are those who are talking: afro, devon, manti, fiction (but only a safety), and vic (she has 10 posts.... most of which are not useful but it shows that she is active in the game). If someone active gets lynched today, you will kill activity because, unless you're a strong, active player, you will have no reason to post because of a risk of being lynched for it. We should also complain about people like emerald and maki (because I do think they have even posted yet but I have heard that they have had conversations.) And people like freezin, lito, tupa, and gun of which they have all posted very little, have the potential to be active but are either choosing not to be or are at a risk of being killed by the host. a2p, u84, and temote (if in fact he actually dies) I think also need some attention imo because they are fairly active (implying that their interest could be because they have an actual role) but would fly under the radar for DAYS because they are active enough to not be inactive but not so active that they draw votes to themselves. Yes day1 has little to go off of, yes people over think at times, but do not let someone else make you believe that killing just ANYONE is ok since it's day1. And we should all bombard syhto to give us a deadline to day1, not knowing really hurts my planning as to when I would want to commit to being online. Oh and voting chart: AFRO (4) manti, a2p, devo, fiction VIC (2) iggy, tupa MANTI (2) vic, afro DEVON (0) (afro) FICTION (1) lito (needs to vote: freezin, emerald, gun, u84, maki, temote) I predict at least 1 host kill will occur today, other than temote... sigh __________________ lastfm PANDORA

11-21-2009, 06:36 AM	#134
Makilaz TWG Princess Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bristol, UK Age: 34 Posts: 1,094	Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens afro too tired to go into detail, but most of it has already been argued to death. __________________

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