Is veganism wrong?

[ScylaX]

Veganism comes from an anthropomorphization of the existence of animals. I'm not talking about the food but about the the ethics of veganism and I have to say I fully disagree. Of course, even our culture makes us proximate to many animals and some may be more naturalists that other, but I think not eating meat or anything related to exploitation of the nutritional potential of animals is a giant waste and makes any diet more difficult to manage than usual.

I try to not write in arguments as "but animals kills each other so it's okay !!" (which is the proof animals have no ethics and that vegans almost incorporate it, any being that is born always had to prepare its life to be killed for alimentary purpose but saying «it's normal for an animal to be killed and eaten» is making a new anthropomorphism, non-human animals just don't have any thinking on their own existence - I'm not a zoologist to assert that though) or «we were made to eat meat so we must do it» (because it's an even more stupid assertion) because overused arguments are rarely the best ones. Yet again, anyone is FREE to eat what he wants and it's even more stupid to say "its dumb 2 do that lol xd", sometime it's something than more of an opinion, even if you convince some people, they will not change opinion because it's solely based on "feelings" and I hardly think you can make something for people that personally dislike the fact of eating organic-living-beings.

So of course I'll dislike a vegan that will come to me and try to CONVINCE me to stop eating meat for any reason he has, I like it and I'm not upset about eating some animals, it's a matter of habit and culture and somebody that does that makes me say that guy didn't even understood his own point.On the other hand, I have some cousins that are vegetarians and some of the things they eat are damn delicious to me, it may look weird or even some ingredients seem strange but, hey, what's the point of disliking something that looks "different" anyway, more people should try it out at least one time in their life, it's probably something you'd enjoy eating on a regular basis

[Cavernio]

"That's probably because a lot of people see vegans as making a statement as opposed to being indirect lifesavers. Saving animals? Regardless, I'd put priority over saving humans, if you want to put it in that light"

Well what the **** other statement would they be making?

That I should put effort into saving humans 'instead' is like, the worst argument anyone could use, ever. It can be used against or for any person who tries to do something moral. There is always going to be something more moral that someone could be spending their time doing. But as it, it is particularly bad in this case, because the few hours it's taken me to determine what foods are vegan/vegetarian, it's not like I would have been saving dying kids or something if I hadn't. Most people who choose to be vegan aren't exactly making a choice between feeding their kids some pork or else their kids die, or will ever be making a decision like that. Furthermore, the whole thing has made me think about what I eat overall and so includes things like buying fair trade coffee and chocolate. And the entire ecological aspect includes people as well as animals.

"Veganism comes from an anthropomorphization of the existence of animals. I'm not talking about the food but about the the ethics of veganism and I have to say I fully disagree."

So you think that humans are the only things to have minds, or at the very least, minds enough that they can experience anything close to what a human experiences. I suggest you go click Reincarnate's link in the free will thread...anthropomorphization is hardly dumb.

[ScylaX]

It's why I said later that I wasn't a zoologist to assert that (strategy, my friend). Beside, I said I disagreed with that, not that I found that dumb so uuh (i'll dévelop my answer later because I'm on iPod right now and must sleep a little but that topic is really interesting and I want to discuss that point on deeper explanations)

[bmah]

I'm sorry to hear you're shocked that I disagree with you, Caverio, but what can I say? I simply disagree and I know many others will say the same with very similar reasons. I personally think your reasoning is just as lame as you think mine is. I'm happy to hear that your eating habits makes you more aware of healthy lifestyle choices, but that's pretty much all you're saying right now. Veganism as you said doesn't involve decisions on whether you're siding with saving the human race or not. I'm just making a contrast, and as common as it sounds, is a perfectly legitimate reason why many do not choose to be a vegan - eating a certain way to save the life of a cow isn't a part of many people's moral compasses. To many, it seems silly, while to others, that reason is as justified as it gets.

Personally, I'll have to agree with ScylaX in that we create such habits because our brains allow us to become emotionally attached to the cows. It doesn't mean that "humans are the only things to have minds". But even that thought doesn't compell me to become any more compassionate. I'm not going to shed a tear. Cows are food to me, and to many others it's their lifestyles. You don't need to complicate it more than that. And for those that disagree, let them be. As people have already said, I'm fine with people being vegans. I just disagree.

[AquaTeen]

Veganism is not wrong. Veganism is just a healthy lifestyle that people choose I mean it's your body you make the decision what you put into it... easy as that.

[ScylaX]

Okay so I'm in an arguing mood right now

So you think that humans are the only things to have minds, or at the very least, minds enough that they can experience anything close to what a human experiences. I suggest you go click Reincarnate's link in the free will thread...anthropomorphization is hardly dumb.

I wasn't talking of that type of anthropomorphization, more like something you feel the possible pain of the animal so much that you feel like you were at its place. I talk about considering, at some approximative points, that the animal is your equal on the scale of the society ; of course, when you kill an animal, you will not just kill it in the most savage way possible - even if there would not be difference on the matter of energy spent to kill - because as an human you still have ethics and animals are still living beings to you, it doesn't matter if they're perfectly aware of themselves and can experience something that comes close to human empirism, you don't measure that kind of metric when you're feeling close to another organic living being.
However as "human" an animal could seem, it's still a living being you'll eat for nutritive purpose. And I assume veganists just don't want to harm them because they feel like these animals are as human as they are at some point.

Damn. Really. I should study linguistic more because I feel like there is a huge semantic gap between what you mean and what I mean when we're talking about anthropomorphization

[Cavernio]

"And I assume veganists just don't want to harm them because they feel like these animals are as human as they are at some point."

But even if its not even close to equal as a human, why does that mean I should eat it if I can be just as healthy without eating it?

I mean, clearly most vegans don't even have to feel like the animal is like a human, when most people (vegans included), don't get to have any sort of relationship with any animal they have eaten. And even the ones who have will use logic to dictate the fact that they don't want to eat other animals. There's a difference between not wanting to eat your pets and not eating animals, and it seems odd to assume that vegans all just feel as close/bad about animals as they would their pets. That's, like, impossible for me to even do. (I have a hard enough time giving a care about people who die overseas from hunger, doesn't mean I don't think it's tragic that they do, or think that they should die of hunger or something.) A fisherman who throws back their fish instead of eating them because they feel bad for the fish flopping around, seems to be the type of person you're talking about. Not all vegans are like that fisher.

Besides which, all emotional reasoning to not eat meat isn't exactly dumb either. Because if you say that to get emotional about animals, how can you say it's any less dumb to get emotional over people? Because humans clearly are all the same? Outside of emotion, logic and science dictates that another person is like me, and logic and science dictates that animals can also experience similar things as me. Unless you are a solipsist, the anthropomorphic argument is totally valid for any reasons to not eat any animal that has a brain.

"Veganism as you said doesn't involve decisions on whether you're siding with saving the human race or not."
That depends on how badly the planet's going to become unlivable due to humanity's raping of the earth, again, because we have much less ecological impact when you don't eat animals.

But even outside that, there's the reason of why you would ignore your emotional reaction anyways? Even if your emotional and logical reaction is wrong, your decision to be vegan won't hurt anyone or anything in any meaningful way, (such things as someone taking offense at it is not very meaningful, and can be controlled by the individual taking offense.)

I think there's plenty of dumb reasons people are vegan, reasons like the bible/religion tells them so, its unnatural for us to eat meat, people shouldn't ever dictate what happens to animals (this one actually seems less dumb to me, except that your mere existence means you're affecting other animals. Even if you lived in the wild off of only plants, you'd still be stepping on insects, eating the berries a bear would eat, killing another animal's habitat, etc.)

I mean, the only given reasons to actually eat meat given are 1) they think it's cheaper to eat meat (which I think it totally backwards, its cheaper to be vegan) and 2) it takes effort to be informed enough to actually buy vegan-only things. The only real argument has been centered around the fact that there's no reason to not eat meat. Which is basically people ignoring their emotions and logic in favor of their stomach.