What happens after we die. - Page 8

**Vanilla Mnm** · 12-19-2009, 12:45 AM

I read a few posts and as a few have stated, I believe that death is just like it is right before you were born. I don't think there is a special heaven, a special place you go, etc etc. It could be a never-ending topic because nobody knows what really happens.

Ryn2075 · 12-19-2009, 12:49 AM

Ah, well then allow me to apologize for using X, Y, and Z without doing sufficient research. I HAVE delved into evolution, enough to make my own informed decision, but I guess I haven't gone in enough to provide X, Y, and Z as accurate claims yet. So for now, I guess I'm in the first group, the one where I'm happy. XD

On a side note, do you have any tips for playing spread? I can play the best using yours and AJ's layout, but it still seems like transitions between certain notes are a little funky, and I can't seem to get rid of it, probably because I was playing index for so long.

perfectchaoslemon · 12-19-2009, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reach

There are a few problems here.

1. Experiencing something does not constitute proof, nor does something have to be experienced for you to prove it. There are many things we know for a fact that cannot be experienced (e.g. things happening on the quantum level).

2. My entire point was that death cannot, by definition, ever be experienced, because it is the absence of experience.

3. You've really got the burden of proof backwards here. You've done and said absolutely nothing to convince me that there's life after death, or that there is actually a spirit that exists. However, saying that there is life after death is a 'claim'.

Any claim is subject to the burden of proof; that is, before I should even bother taking you seriously, you should give me evidence and reason as to why you're right.

I know you wouldn't take me seriously if I claimed NASA just discovered a new extrasolar planet that is swarming with blue hedgehogs running around collecting golden rings and trying to foil the plans of a fat genius, especially if I didn't give you any evidence to support this claim.

But that's basically what you're doing here.

I, on the other hand, gave real life neurological examples of why you're wrong.

So really, give me some actual substance to your argument and I'll take you seriously.

As funny as the nasa quote was, you didn't really provide much information either. You basically just gave more descriptive details about how we permanently lose our state of consciousness, but in reality, if there is absolutely no way to grasp that fact, the chances are it most likely does not exist. Now I may sound like I am stubborn and naive for saying this, but to an extent, it is somewhat true.

Take God for instance, he is an all supernatural being according to that faith, but even if what he does is difficult to grasp, at least we can get a general idea of what he can do and what it may feel like. Same goes for heaven and hell, we can kinda get a general idea of what it feels like to be in both places, extreme happiness and extreme sadness.

If you can give me one example of something that has been proven and yet is impossible to explain, then I may change my mind, but it seems like the issues of after death and before time existed (I'll explain more of what I mean about that if you ask me to, even though that would lead us to a completely different debate topic) and how we cannot perceive our existence just doesn't seem graspable in the slightest.

EDIT: I'm done debating here for now. I know I'll get a ****load if hate mail from others because I contradicted myself a few times here and there (which I know I did) and I don't have time explaining myself (which sounds very immature), but I'm going to go ahead and see where this conversation leads to (no, I'm not chickening out because I don't want a debate assuming I'd lose, I promise).

ledwix · 12-19-2009, 01:54 AM

What I see as a theme ITT is the fine line between proximate and ultimate causation. A few of you guys don't understand that nature is endowed with certain laws that govern the motion of particles. For instance, all the objects in the world tend to be forced toward the same point: the center of mass of the earth. How is it that we are all attracted to the exact same point in the earth's core, without even trying or even being aware of it? Well, nature is endowed with an attractive force on all bodies, charged and uncharged, that works across large distances. Our bodies don't fly in random directions but instead all fall toward the same point in a rather organized series of events. But does gravity imply that an intelligent being is constantly, actively working to push everything down? No. And in the same way, nature doesn't necessarily act completely randomly at the chemical level. There is some natural degree of organization that takes place with organic molecules. The question then becomes not necessarily the low chance of life forming in any given place but instead the origin of these natural laws themselves. As for the ultimate causation, I am led to conclude divine intervention, whereas most atheists would conclude "we are working on it, but we cannot say anything for sure yet." In essence, I feel that the theistic position is that there does exist an ultimate cause, whereas the atheistic position is that the ultimate cause exists only as another proximate cause leading to the universe's initial conditions.

N.T.M. · 12-19-2009, 02:10 AM

Well one thing I'd like to address is just the incessant misuse of the word fact. Many aspects of evolution are factual (ie natural selection), however the theory is entrammeled with misrepresented facets (namely facts appose to "logical inferences").

That is all.

*takes a seat*

**Mollocephalus** · 12-19-2009, 02:15 AM

ledwix. there's a difference between saying "nobody knows for sure why the laws of the universe are like that, so i'm inserting god there" (and you're still substituting a question mark with an even greater question mark) and "science has proven this and that but i'm still gonna credit god because it feels right and i was taught like this". Disregarding any factual evidence practically make these people garbage-spouting morons with no perception of reality, hence it's useless to reason with them. i don't even know why are they allowed to post in critical thinking if all they're capable to say is uninformed standardized christian propaganda.

Choofers · 12-19-2009, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollocephalus

ledwix. there's a difference between saying "nobody knows for sure why the laws of the universe are like that, so i'm inserting god there" (and you're still substituting a question mark with an even greater question mark) and "science has proven this and that but i'm still gonna credit god because it feels right and i was taught like this". Disregarding any factual evidence practically make these people garbage-spouting morons with no perception of reality, hence it's useless to reason with them. i don't even know why are they allowed to post in critical thinking if all they're capable to say is uninformed standardized christian propaganda.

Hi, I'm a Christian but I still don't know what my stance is on death.

I accept the fact that my rate of death is higher than most Americans, but that still doesn't change the fact that no one REALLY knows what happens after death.

Theoretically speaking, since your body shuts down and begins to decay, you should return to a state of nothingness and cease to exist. I like to hold onto the belief that there is a heaven and hell though.

**Mollocephalus** · 12-19-2009, 12:18 PM

"Like to" isn't a very good approach when talking about moral matters, especially when it obscures what you actually know and what you don't.

cixOclock · 12-19-2009, 12:29 PM

Why is christianty always attacked by you atheists?
He has a belief, let him believe it, don't attack him for it.
Your worse than a racist with your anti-religious overtones. Seriously, just let it drop. No one cares.

**dore** · 12-19-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollocephalus

"Like to" isn't a very good approach when talking about moral matters, especially when it obscures what you actually know and what you don't.

Why not? If you're looking at something you cannot either prove or disprove, why shouldn't personal fancy be a viable choice? Now it's one thing to try to "prove" heaven and hell or the Bible or whatever like some of the idiots in this thread, but since he just mentioned his personal beliefs in without saying anyone else's is wrong, what's wrong with that?

**Mollocephalus** · 12-19-2009, 12:52 PM

What's wrong with that is that what you like or dislike is a direct consequence of your environment. No one should pass over the chance to doubt the inevitable thought automations we all build upon our life. If you just choose to be good with what feels good, you are no more than a thoughtless victim of the social background.

Mousethecat · 12-19-2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock

Why is christianty always attacked by you atheists?

Why do cats and dogs fight?

Point is, they're two opposite sides of a spectrum. Dispute is going to happen. Nothing will stop that.

**dore** · 12-19-2009, 12:55 PM

Doing what feels right is what makes us happy, and as long as it causes no harm to anyone else, there is no reason not to.

cixOclock · 12-19-2009, 12:57 PM

Yeah... and your not? You say thoughtless victims, but I can blast that arguement right back in your face.

**Mollocephalus** · 12-19-2009, 01:26 PM

I'd really like you to do that.

Determinism is what i'm talking about. I could say the same for me, that i am what i am because of the experiences i've had, and the same applies for every other living being. It's important that a tradition of non-traditionalism is shared, so that your choices are not forced by someone else's thought, but guided by analisys. I don't need to explain to you the difference between doing something just following a basic instinct and doing something because all the relevant factors have been scrutinized.

I'm actually talking about inducing via social structures the ability to think for oneself, opposed to socially inducing a set of standard behaviours and ideas that people do not analyze and live by.

cixOclock · 12-19-2009, 01:37 PM

Well alright, just stop being prejudice, christianity isn't something that just popped up in the last one-hundred years, its been around for roughly two thousand years, but even then--belief in a singular god has been the belief of many cultures for thousands of years even before that.
Until you get into ancient Greece or some other religion that sprang up around christianity, like Persia, Egypt, Canaan, on and on.

Ryn2075 · 12-19-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollocephalus

I'd really like you to do that.

Determinism is what i'm talking about. I could say the same for me, that i am what i am because of the experiences i've had, and the same applies for every other living being. It's important that a tradition of non-traditionalism is shared, so that your choices are not forced by someone else's thought, but guided by analisys. I don't need to explain to you the difference between doing something just following a basic instinct and doing something because all the relevant factors have been scrutinized.

I'm actually talking about inducing via social structures the ability to think for oneself, opposed to socially inducing a set of standard behaviours and ideas that people do not analyze and live by.

I can speak only for myself in response to this, but I've said it a couple times before, and I'll say it again. I chose to be what I am, not because of someone else, but because of my own life experiences. I've considered other ways of life that may make me happier and that might make more sense, and I've considered ways of life that would not make me happy and that make absolutely no sense. I certainly am not a tool of thoughtless, social monotony, and the choice I made has been my own through my own informed research. If you think I'm stupid for that, then feel free to think that, but please don't assume that my choice was made without careful consideration.

~Ryan

Izzy · 12-19-2009, 02:03 PM

Is it some kind of fad for christian kids to go around the internet and join random forums just so they can bitch and moan about people not believing what they do?

Some of you guys have less then 30 posts and the majority of them are about religion. Please go away and join a religion forum. Your posts have no critical thought involved and are in no way a contribution to the thread.

Thanks.

Ryn2075 · 12-19-2009, 02:09 PM

Izzy, you need to get your facts straight. I never tried to make anyone believe what I do, and I never was upset that you guys don't believe what I do, so stop all your freaking assumptions. It's getting really irritating. I have stated numerous times already that my aim was to state what I believe, not to change anyone's mind.

~Ryan

**devonin** · 12-19-2009, 02:18 PM

Some things:

1/ Argument from tradition (it's been this way a long time, surely it's right) is a logical fallacy. Just because a religion is old doesn't confer any particular cachet of correctness on it.

2/ If you don't want people to question your beliefs, don't post about them in a critical thinking forum. The PURPOSE of this forum is to debate, discuss and question. If someone questioning your beliefs is "attacking you" to you, you're in the wrong place.

3/ Even implying that someone is being racist or "as bad as" a racist is a -very- significant accusation to throw around. Please make VERY sure you know what you're saying before you apply it to somebody.

12-19-2009, 12:45 AM	#141
Vanilla Mnm cavs Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Saratoga, New York Posts: 3,258	Re: What happens after we die. I read a few posts and as a few have stated, I believe that death is just like it is right before you were born. I don't think there is a special heaven, a special place you go, etc etc. It could be a never-ending topic because nobody knows what really happens.

12-19-2009, 12:49 AM	#142
Ryn2075 FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Boringtown, Georgia Age: 33 Posts: 37	Re: What happens after we die. Ah, well then allow me to apologize for using X, Y, and Z without doing sufficient research. I HAVE delved into evolution, enough to make my own informed decision, but I guess I haven't gone in enough to provide X, Y, and Z as accurate claims yet. So for now, I guess I'm in the first group, the one where I'm happy. XD On a side note, do you have any tips for playing spread? I can play the best using yours and AJ's layout, but it still seems like transitions between certain notes are a little funky, and I can't seem to get rid of it, probably because I was playing index for so long.

12-19-2009, 01:54 AM	#144
ledwix Giant Pi Operator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Age: 33 Posts: 2,878	Re: What happens after we die. What I see as a theme ITT is the fine line between proximate and ultimate causation. A few of you guys don't understand that nature is endowed with certain laws that govern the motion of particles. For instance, all the objects in the world tend to be forced toward the same point: the center of mass of the earth. How is it that we are all attracted to the exact same point in the earth's core, without even trying or even being aware of it? Well, nature is endowed with an attractive force on all bodies, charged and uncharged, that works across large distances. Our bodies don't fly in random directions but instead all fall toward the same point in a rather organized series of events. But does gravity imply that an intelligent being is constantly, actively working to push everything down? No. And in the same way, nature doesn't necessarily act completely randomly at the chemical level. There is some natural degree of organization that takes place with organic molecules. The question then becomes not necessarily the low chance of life forming in any given place but instead the origin of these natural laws themselves. As for the ultimate causation, I am led to conclude divine intervention, whereas most atheists would conclude "we are working on it, but we cannot say anything for sure yet." In essence, I feel that the theistic position is that there does exist an ultimate cause, whereas the atheistic position is that the ultimate cause exists only as another proximate cause leading to the universe's initial conditions. Last edited by ledwix; 12-19-2009 at 02:02 AM..

12-19-2009, 02:10 AM	#145
N.T.M. FFR Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Reno, NV Age: 34 Posts: 890	Re: What happens after we die. Well one thing I'd like to address is just the incessant misuse of the word fact. Many aspects of evolution are factual (ie natural selection), however the theory is entrammeled with misrepresented facets (namely facts appose to "logical inferences"). That is all. takes a seat __________________ “Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish... Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.” Christopher Hitchens

12-19-2009, 02:15 AM	#146
Mollocephalus Custom User Title Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Italy Age: 35 Posts: 2,601	Re: What happens after we die. ledwix. there's a difference between saying "nobody knows for sure why the laws of the universe are like that, so i'm inserting god there" (and you're still substituting a question mark with an even greater question mark) and "science has proven this and that but i'm still gonna credit god because it feels right and i was taught like this". Disregarding any factual evidence practically make these people garbage-spouting morons with no perception of reality, hence it's useless to reason with them. i don't even know why are they allowed to post in critical thinking if all they're capable to say is uninformed standardized christian propaganda. __________________

12-19-2009, 12:18 PM	#148
Mollocephalus Custom User Title Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Italy Age: 35 Posts: 2,601	Re: What happens after we die. "Like to" isn't a very good approach when talking about moral matters, especially when it obscures what you actually know and what you don't. __________________ Last edited by Mollocephalus; 12-19-2009 at 12:25 PM..

12-19-2009, 12:29 PM	#149
cixOclock FFR Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 226	Re: What happens after we die. Why is christianty always attacked by you atheists? He has a belief, let him believe it, don't attack him for it. Your worse than a racist with your anti-religious overtones. Seriously, just let it drop. No one cares.

12-19-2009, 12:52 PM	#151
Mollocephalus Custom User Title Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Italy Age: 35 Posts: 2,601	Re: What happens after we die. What's wrong with that is that what you like or dislike is a direct consequence of your environment. No one should pass over the chance to doubt the inevitable thought automations we all build upon our life. If you just choose to be good with what feels good, you are no more than a thoughtless victim of the social background. __________________

12-19-2009, 12:55 PM	#153
dore caveman pornstar Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: ridin on a unicorn Age: 33 Posts: 6,317	Re: What happens after we die. Doing what feels right is what makes us happy, and as long as it causes no harm to anyone else, there is no reason not to. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IREnpHco9mw

12-19-2009, 12:57 PM	#154
cixOclock FFR Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 226	Re: What happens after we die. Yeah... and your not? You say thoughtless victims, but I can blast that arguement right back in your face.

12-19-2009, 01:26 PM	#155
Mollocephalus Custom User Title Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Italy Age: 35 Posts: 2,601	Re: What happens after we die. I'd really like you to do that. Determinism is what i'm talking about. I could say the same for me, that i am what i am because of the experiences i've had, and the same applies for every other living being. It's important that a tradition of non-traditionalism is shared, so that your choices are not forced by someone else's thought, but guided by analisys. I don't need to explain to you the difference between doing something just following a basic instinct and doing something because all the relevant factors have been scrutinized. I'm actually talking about inducing via social structures the ability to think for oneself, opposed to socially inducing a set of standard behaviours and ideas that people do not analyze and live by. __________________ Last edited by Mollocephalus; 12-19-2009 at 01:28 PM..

12-19-2009, 01:37 PM	#156
cixOclock FFR Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 226	Re: What happens after we die. Well alright, just stop being prejudice, christianity isn't something that just popped up in the last one-hundred years, its been around for roughly two thousand years, but even then--belief in a singular god has been the belief of many cultures for thousands of years even before that. Until you get into ancient Greece or some other religion that sprang up around christianity, like Persia, Egypt, Canaan, on and on.

12-19-2009, 02:03 PM	#158
Izzy Snek Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas Age: 34 Posts: 9,192	Re: What happens after we die. Is it some kind of fad for christian kids to go around the internet and join random forums just so they can bitch and moan about people not believing what they do? Some of you guys have less then 30 posts and the majority of them are about religion. Please go away and join a religion forum. Your posts have no critical thought involved and are in no way a contribution to the thread. Thanks.

12-19-2009, 02:09 PM	#159
Ryn2075 FFR Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Boringtown, Georgia Age: 33 Posts: 37	Re: What happens after we die. Izzy, you need to get your facts straight. I never tried to make anyone believe what I do, and I never was upset that you guys don't believe what I do, so stop all your freaking assumptions. It's getting really irritating. I have stated numerous times already that my aim was to state what I believe, not to change anyone's mind. ~Ryan

12-19-2009, 02:18 PM	#160
devonin Very Grave Indeed Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 40 Posts: 10,098	Re: What happens after we die. Some things: 1/ Argument from tradition (it's been this way a long time, surely it's right) is a logical fallacy. Just because a religion is old doesn't confer any particular cachet of correctness on it. 2/ If you don't want people to question your beliefs, don't post about them in a critical thinking forum. The PURPOSE of this forum is to debate, discuss and question. If someone questioning your beliefs is "attacking you" to you, you're in the wrong place. 3/ Even implying that someone is being racist or "as bad as" a racist is a -very- significant accusation to throw around. Please make VERY sure you know what you're saying before you apply it to somebody.

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