World of Warcraft

[devonin]

Edit: Three cheers for poorly explaining myself.

My whole issue is "Players who brag about how incredibly skilled they are because of their raiding accomplishments amuse me because they almost universally are using multiple outside addons to make the accomplishment as easy and straightforward as possible"

I have no issue with using mods like DBM, Omen, Grid, Clique, Healbot whatever. They DO make the fights a lot easier, and since generally what you're looking for is a) Credit for killing the boss and b) Gear from the boss, anything that makes getting those things easier is a Good Thing(tm)

My issue is that using all of these things -does- make the fight easier, and so I'm -amused- (That's all, amused) when I see arrogant pricks bragging about how amazing they are because they've killed something you haven't, when part of the progression process is engaging as many outside aids as possible to make it as easy as possible to do.

[Grandiagod]

I agree with that.

[ImEric12]

Yeah, but you're open to use all of those things as well. The game was designed to be added on to-- this is demonstrated by how horribly designed the default raid frames are. Blizzard has even stated this. So yes, all those addons make it easier, but you're on perfectly level ground and still haven't cleared bosses they have.

Anyway, Vezax definitely requires planning and thinking ahead.. you can't just get in and burn him down and blow all your mana right away. Saving caster dps for black puddles helps immensely, and planning saronite vapor use is also very helpful so you don't have wasted puddles. But still, it's CAKE after managing to keep everyone alive well into P4 of Mimiron.


Also, speaking of irritating wipes, I pugged naxx yesterday just for fun (got the 25 malygos key and barely missed the roll on Torch of Holy Fire aghhh) and our first KT attempt got him down, no joke, to 2400 health. =(

[Tokzic]

http://www.dauntlessones.com/index.php?topic=3691.0

Video of us downing XT-10 Hard.

Note the charts at the end.

I rock.

[Gano]

So my guilds on Mimi 25 now, had fun being phase 3 tank since we have no good locks, phase 4 is just a mess right now though.

Just yesterday half pugged a 25 Naxx and brought along one of the officers for my servers best raiding guild on Alliance, who was apparently watching me. After 4 wings down he offered me a spot in his guild asking if I was tired of topping meters every fight in my ****ty guild. So now I'm faced with a decision of going there where I'm less needed but will probably get geared out much quicker, or sticking with my current guild where I've worked my way to officer and have been progressing with for some 9 months. HMMMMM.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by devonin

Edit: Three cheers for poorly explaining myself.

My whole issue is "Players who brag about how incredibly skilled they are because of their raiding accomplishments amuse me because they almost universally are using multiple outside addons to make the accomplishment as easy and straightforward as possible"

I have no issue with using mods like DBM, Omen, Grid, Clique, Healbot whatever. They DO make the fights a lot easier, and since generally what you're looking for is a) Credit for killing the boss and b) Gear from the boss, anything that makes getting those things easier is a Good Thing(tm)

My issue is that using all of these things -does- make the fight easier, and so I'm -amused- (That's all, amused) when I see arrogant pricks bragging about how amazing they are because they've killed something you haven't, when part of the progression process is engaging as many outside aids as possible to make it as easy as possible to do.

I know you're not targeting me, but at the same time, it's not like DBM is really making it easier. It's just making it more convenient.

I could just use Power Auras to custom-generate images or text just like DBM's whose sole purpose is to flash the buffs/debuffs at me in a clearer way than Blizz's "hey we're just gonna stick this thing over here and hope you notice". Once I realized that, I did. I spent several hours customizing every encounter I knew to just basically show me things I was supposed to see already if Blizzard had spent more than thirty seconds generating a decent UI. On a fight like Hodir, my NPC buffs aren't mixed in with 30 other buffs. They're clearly shown directly over my character's head, separate from the rest of my unimportant buffs (yay +550 ap!). When you have a buff that doesn't work immediately (sunbeam) or a buff that has a maximum capacity that they don't mention to you (toasty fire) or one you'll never ever know that you actually have (power spark) then it's helpful to have a heads-up warning that you've got those buffs rather than spend the entire fight looking at your buffs (Which are constantly changing due to raid-wide procs and such).

I do agree that the game is POSSIBLE without any mods, as I know several people who do not use mods, but the game is made much more CONVENIENT with these addons. The fact that blizzard has never once mentioned a problem with deadly boss mods indicates that they do not think it is cheating. It is simply a program like power auras that is programmed to track when an event occurs and show a warning to the player--just like blizzard's actual raid warnings (except much more accurate).

As for the failures, their problem wasn't really that they didn't know they had the bomb. The problem was that they didn't know how to run away with it. It's much easier in Uld10 because you have a lot more room to work with and there are fewer bombs. With 25 people around him in a half circle, it can sometimes be hard to get away, I guess. Though it really isn't, since I had no problems running away ever.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can't make a bad player good just by giving them DBM.

[devonin]

I never said you'd make a bad player good by giving them DBM.

And you don't think that a global announcement 10 seconds before every mechanic fires doesn't make it easier? A global announcement and automatic raid marking when players get targetting with mechanical effects? Convenient -and- easier. But again, the effects of DBM on the play weren't the focus of my point.

My point was the people who are arrogantly bragging all the time about their skill despite the fact that they use as many tools as they can to make things as easy and straightforward as possible, I find amusing. That's all.

[Tokzic]

Originally Posted by devonin

I never said you'd make a bad player good by giving them DBM.

And you don't think that a global announcement 10 seconds before every mechanic fires doesn't make it easier? A global announcement and automatic raid marking when players get targetting with mechanical effects? Convenient -and- easier. But again, the effects of DBM on the play weren't the focus of my point.

My point was the people who are arrogantly bragging all the time about their skill despite the fact that they use as many tools as they can to make things as easy and straightforward as possible, I find amusing. That's all.

I don't think it really removes any grandeur about doing something difficult when you use mods. It is the exact same game, it is the exact same achievement. No game mechanics are changed.

Do you find it amusing when people use flasks when they raid? I mean, it's making the fight easier. You can do it without them. Why not do it with the difficulty intended, right?

[tsugomaru]

I've been raiding without Deadly Boss Mods for the longest time. A month ago, I finally picked it up and it doesn't really help me much because I already pay attention to these things. I suppose the only thing DBM is good for are for people who don't know the fight. We were running with a guy who has never been to Naxx before, but he listened to what we told him, he paid attention to what was going around him, and he took note of the DBM warnings and he played as if he had been there many times before.

~Tsugomaru

[tsugomaru]

But to make sure I'm doing this right, using vent is cheating. People shouldn't feel proud that if they clear content while they use it. It makes communication with raid members way too easy.

~Tsugomaru

[Kagome]

bigwigs > DBM

[Relambrien]

I find that I get the most use out of DBM not from its ability to tell me when something happens, but when it is -going- to happen. As long as I know a fight, it isn't difficult to get by without DBM most of the time. For instance, the 25-man Emalon I did this week, I didn't even notice DBM wasn't telling me when Overcharged was happening until halfway through the fight.

Rather, I find that DBM adds a level of "comfort." Using the previous example, I could still handle finding and dispatching the overcharged add without difficulty. However, there was a level of anxiety whenever I saw the message, simply because I didn't expect it to happen at that time. With DBM, I can always keep tabs on the boss's timings, so that nothing comes as a surprise. That extra amount of knowledge doesn't really help performance so much as it helps comfort, which is something I've noticed with virtually every fight.

As for other addons, I find it difficult that anyone could raid with the default Blizzard threat monitor. Especially on a fight like Patchwerk, where the tanks need to be in specific positions on the threat list. Granted I can imagine how this would be done if there was no outside threat monitor (namely, figure out which tank has the best threat generation, then give all of the tanks a really really long time to build threat), but it's woefully inefficient.

All other addons I could realistically do without in a raid, but my performance would suffer noticeably. Having to click on buttons instead of press them (since I regularly use more than the default action bar in combat), being unable to accurately track cooldowns, having to manually check for various procs, etc. It's -doable-, but there would be a significant amount lost in the process.

[devonin]

ITT Grandi trolls me but then understands my point and agrees
ITT Everyone else trolls me.

[tsugomaru]

I don't doubt that we all get what you're trying to say. We're just poking at you for fun.

~Tsugomaru

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

For instance, the 25-man Emalon I did this week, I didn't even notice DBM wasn't telling me when Overcharged was happening until halfway through the fight.

The latest release of DBM broke the support for Emalon.

That fight doesn't really matter though, since Emalon's been nerfed to hell.

DBM still doesn't work properly on Kologarn either, but we've one-shotted him every week regardless.

It's not a tool we rely on, it's a helpful reminder of things to come.

In other news: I'm 100% done with Naxx. Got the hit ring from Naxx10 the other day and got the KT ring tonight. Finally done.

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

We were running with a guy who has never been to Naxx before, but he listened to what we told him, he paid attention to what was going around him, and he took note of the DBM warnings and he played as if he had been there many times before.

~Tsugomaru

If he was a healer that is very very easy. I've ran into 25 ulduar with no idea how to do any fight. Simply follow around other healers and watch for anything that looks dangerous.

[tsugomaru]

He was a mage. I'm talking about things like Thad, Four Horseman, and Gluth (he kited too). It may not seem like an impressive feat for you, but I've seen dps who have run Naxx so many times, but can't do any of this correctly.

~Tsugomaru

[Squeek]

I didn't have DBM until several weeks into raiding.

Some people are good naturally. Some people need a little help.

Personally, I don't use DBM for my own survival--I announce things on Vent. DBM knows when cooldowns on enemy skills are up and so I know when to call them out on Vent.

[Necamus]

The only addon I use while tanking is Omen.. everyone thinks I'm dumb for not using DBM, but I seem to do just fine without it.

[tsugomaru]

I guess the counters are useful. They let me prepare for things to come, but the game usually gives ample warning already.

~Tsugomaru