Snowden

[Tps222]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

Well yeah, you believe in privacy over all else.

Like how terrorists and people who associate with them should not be spied on, and that you would rather see another few 9/11 sized attacks.

(I am not being dramatic, this is what he has said in other threads)

I definitely have never posted anything like that, but I remember the conversation we had to which you are referring.

I'd rather take the chance of possibly enduring another extremely rare massive homeland attack* if it means that the ideals and liberties that this country were founded on remain intact.

Some of nyokou's points I agree with. We wouldn't need to have such a large system for spying in place if we weren't already expecting blowback from our previous incursions into other nations' business.

We started the fire, and then told everyone it's ok if they are constantly getting drenched by water because without that water we'd all burn down. This is just short-sighted.

Now, I realize that I'm coming off as naive and idealistic. I realize that the past has already happened, and that we need to find a practical way for dealing with our mistakes in the past.

I've moved from my staunch position of completely bashing programs like PRISM, which I believe can be utilized effectively when regulated properly. I still don't agree with certain programs(XKeycore, Tempora) but I understand the motive behind it.

Regardless, I'm well aware that the rest of the world most definitely engages in similar spying, even if the scope isn't the same as the US's; we need to make sure we remain on pace in that area. I'm just tired of the US creating such international hate and purposefully making US citizens feel as if they are constantly in danger. Attractive hit this on the head.

Fojar, you just don't seem to distrust your government in the slightest, and that completely baffles me. I wish I possessed your implicit trust and patriotism, but I do not.

*Note: Do not mistake my reliance on statistics of terrorist attacks as a lack of appreciation for human life and the horrible effects that come from foreign attacks. I just believe it's a self-inflicted wound coming back to bite us, and really isn't even our biggest concern as a nation.

[FoJaR]

Originally Posted by Attractive

fojar it is hard for me to believe that you actually believe in the things you post.



terrorist is just a word the government uses when any single person or group who is willing to use force opposes them and the ideals of their system. it is a buzz word and it has become a sort of justification for government violation of civil liberties. all the talk of terrorism is a fear tactic that the government uses on its citizens to make them feel that they need to be protected. if people are scared and feel as if there is a threat then they are more willing to give up their freedoms for the sake of "security". the government wants more terrorists because more terrorists means more excuses to attack foreign countries and eliminate citizens rights at home. if you know anything about the history of the cia's clandestine operations in the 20th century then you would know that it is safe to assume that the cia is currently involved in a lot of clandestine operations in other countries. i would not be surprised if it turned out that the cia was directly or indirectly responsible for much of the car bombings and other "terrorist" acts that are going on throughout the middle east. i would also not be surprised if the cia was responsible for some of the disappearances of journalists in syria and other countries. it would be in our governments best interest to create instability and chaos in the middle east as it would create a better opportunity for them to justify military involvement in the region.

the government is not always doing what it says it is doing and to think otherwise is foolish. i do not think that our government is looking out for the best interest of the citizens and i believe that anybody who exposes their wrongdoing is doing something good for humanity.

hooooooooly shit man better wear that tin foil helmet or the Grays might track you down and steal your precious bodily fluids.

[PaperclipGames]

attractive confirmed actual conspiracy theorist

Also I think my views correspond the most with Tps222 at the top of this page.

[FoJaR]

Originally Posted by Tps222

I definitely have never posted anything like that, but I remember the conversation we had to which you are referring.

I'd rather take the chance of possibly enduring another extremely rare massive homeland attack* if it means that the ideals and liberties that this country were founded on remain intact.

no, in that thread you clearly said that you would rather they happen.

Some of nyokou's points I agree with. We wouldn't need to have such a large system for spying in place if we weren't already expecting blowback from our previous incursions into other nations' business.

We started the fire, and then told everyone it's ok if they are constantly getting drenched by water because without that water we'd all burn down. This is just short-sighted.

we may have started the fire, but your argument is that now that it's going, we should just let it burn. i personally would rather be wet (terrorists emails getting read?) than dead.

Now, I realize that I'm coming off as naive and idealistic. I realize that the past has already happened, and that we need to find a practical way for dealing with our mistakes in the past.

I've moved from my staunch position of completely bashing programs like PRISM, which I believe can be utilized effectively when regulated properly. I still don't agree with certain programs(XKeycore, Tempora) but I understand the motive behind it.

i cant speak for tempora, but you can read the statement the NSA put out about xkeyscore (there is oversight).

Regardless, I'm well aware that the rest of the world most definitely engages in similar spying, even if the scope isn't the same as the US's; we need to make sure we remain on pace in that area. I'm just tired of the US creating such international hate and purposefully making US citizens feel as if they are constantly in danger. Attractive hit this on the head.

if you think the government is stirring up shit to get us involved where we're not already, you're out of your mind. the government does not fabricate threats so that it can invade our privacy.

Fojar, you just don't seem to distrust your government in the slightest, and that completely baffles me. I wish I possessed your implicit trust and patriotism, but I do not.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH oh man. OH MAN. it's not patriotism in the slightest, it's practicality and cynicism. have you seen how effective our government is? do you watch the news??? there is no way the government has time, money, or the will to oversee things that are not crucial to national security.

big brother isn't some well put together cabal of bigwigs, it's a guy in a bathrobe who sits around getting high and masturbating all day, and is lucky if he can make it to the mailbox.

*Note: Do not mistake my reliance on statistics of terrorist attacks as a lack of appreciation for human life and the horrible effects that come from foreign attacks. I just believe it's a self-inflicted wound coming back to bite us, and really isn't even our biggest concern as a nation.

what you're neglecting is the after effects of terrorism. if we had prevented 9/11, i cant see any reason that we would be occupying Afghanistan right now, and presumably none of the deaths that have happened over there since as a result would have happened, and we also (most likely) would not have invaded Iraq.

the real danger are the idealists that are willing to sacrifice hundreds or thousands of lives to promote their ideals.

[Arkuski]

The funny thing is, if Attractive was telling you the same things a year ago that Snowden is releasing now, you'd still tell him he's a conspiratard.

[FoJaR]

that the NSA monitors communications? nah pretty sure everyone already knew that.

[PaperclipGames]

I'm wondering about how many actual crimes the US government commits with help of the information obtained by the NSA, compared to how much they prevent with the help of the information obtained by the NSA. Fojar seems to believe a lot more harm is prevented than caused, but I'm unsure.

[Attractive]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

hooooooooly shit man better wear that tin foil helmet or the Grays might track you down and steal your precious bodily fluids.

read up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Horman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Gu..._d%27%C3%A9tat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ntion_in_Chile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_act...s_in_Argentina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Colombia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Peru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_act...s_in_Venezuela

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Br..._d%27%C3%A9tat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Bolivia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_act...s_in_Nicaragua

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Honduras

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Libya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Iraq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_act...in_Afghanistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Turkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Syria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Iran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabotage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_operation




and this is all stuff thats on wikipedia so you know theres a lot more stuff that isnt it public..

[FoJaR]

yeah some of that stuff happened (i only read like 5 of them because so many links, and some of them were conspiracy theory stuff) but you're taking acts and ascribing motivations for those acts for which there is no evidence.

the US government (at least post bush era) is not looking to start fights where there are none.

[Attractive]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

yeah some of that stuff happened (i only read like 5 of them because so many links, and some of them were conspiracy theory stuff) but you're taking acts and ascribing motivations for those acts for which there is no evidence.

the US government (at least post bush era) is not looking to start fights where there are none.

point out the stuff you say is a conspiracy because i dont know what youre even talking about..



ok so you have an organization that has a history of clandestine involvement in the affairs of other countries and operates under a code of secrecy, there are even records of this organization's involvement in the overthrowing of various governments. ever since the creation of this organization their m.o. has been the shaping of foreign politics through subterfuge, sabotage, spying, the use of undercover agents, and generally the disruption of groups whose aims are not conducive to the aims of the usa. you are assuming that this organization no longer does this? you are assuming that they do not play a role in all of the chaos that is going on in the middle east? that is incredibly naive...almost forcefully so. if you look at what they have done in the past you can see what they are capable of. it is no conspiracy theory, just an educated guess based on the organization's prior history and how they operate.






edit: i should have been clearer in my first post.

i said that the government wants more terrorists... while they may not always want more terrorists, they dont want "terrorism" to stop. if "terrorism" were to stop then the pretext of US involvement in the middle east would be completely invalid and the militarization of police at home would be much less justified. terrorism is a word the government uses to demonize people and justify extreme actions like torture and the bombing of civilians. it is impossible for terrorism to stop because the people claiming to fight terrorism are the same people who have defined what terrorism is and can thus turn anything into a terrorist act simply by saying it was so. the real threat of terrorism to your everyday american is pretty much non-existent.

[adlp]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

the US government (at least post bush era) is not looking to start fights where there are none.

so close to syria though

[FoJaR]

Originally Posted by Attractive

i said that the government wants more terrorists... while they may not always want more terrorists, they dont want "terrorism" to stop. if "terrorism" were to stop then the pretext of US involvement in the middle east would be completely invalid and the militarization of police at home would be much less justified. terrorism is a word the government uses to demonize people and justify extreme actions like torture and the bombing of civilians. it is impossible for terrorism to stop because the people claiming to fight terrorism are the same people who have defined what terrorism is and can thus turn anything into a terrorist act simply by saying it was so. the real threat of terrorism to your everyday american is pretty much non-existent.

i mean you're just wrong. people in the CIA dont sit around scanning reports for things that they can use to knowingly target foreign citizens.

you have no idea what you're talking about man. have you ever heard of a suicide bombing facilitator? have you watched international news ever? you know that the USA is not the only country that is targeted right?

if you think terrorism is something that the government makes up, i have a few links for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2001
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2002
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2003
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2005
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncidents,_2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...80%93June_2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...3December_2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...80%93June_2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...3December_2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...80%93June_2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...3December_2013

yeah sorry at the end there they have to start breaking the list in half cause it's too long otherwise.

[Attractive]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

i mean you're just wrong. people in the CIA dont sit around scanning reports for things that they can use to knowingly target foreign citizens.

you have no idea what you're talking about man. have you ever heard of a suicide bombing facilitator? have you watched international news ever? you know that the USA is not the only country that is targeted right?

if you think terrorism is something that the government makes up, i have a few links for you:


yeah sorry at the end there they have to start breaking the list in half cause it's too long otherwise.

you are clearly so biased that you have closed your eyes to any thing which your government has told you not to believe. all of your arguments are straight from the horses mouth. those links dont prove anything. did you even read through all of them? do you even know the stories of each of the individual incidents? some of the "terror" incidents even had the central intelligence agency listed as the perpetrator. some of them were simple executions and shootouts... hardly "terrorist" activities. in the international community, terrorism has no binding criminal law definition.... therefore it IS something that the government made up. plain and simple, terrorism is a word the government uses to demonize groups of people and justify horrific crimes. you can make a list of incidents and call them "terrorist incidents", but what does that accomplish aside from sensationalizing the incidents?

[FoJaR]

by your definition, everything is made up, because it's just some word that someone made to describe something

[FoJaR]

it's terror because they're killing civilians indiscriminately to make a point.

[Tps222]

I think he's saying that there isn't a commonly accepted standard to define acts of terror for statistical data.

[FoJaR]

and i'm saying that statistical data is not what we're arguing. his argument is that terrorism is made up, and i'm saying that it's not. there are people who kill just to make a point

[Tps222]

Judge: NSA domestic phone data-mining unconstitutional

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/16/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1


He's a god damn hero.