9th (and 10th?) Official Tournament -- D7 (and others?) Format Change?

[RB_Spirit]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

I really appreciate the comments that you guys have thrown out here. It seems like everyone is leaning towards the fact of putting this for higher divisions, and in retrospect, it does seem like a better idea since D6/D7 players tend to excel in all skills, but tournament songs push them to extreme levels.

Keep on with the discussion, I really appreciate it!

This~

[HalfStep]

Agreed with rob's point, it makes it absolutely discouraging to try to skillboost from the bottom of a division, since even if you manage to improve your skill enough, your early round scores will get you eliminated.

It also gives a disadvantage to players that can't AAA easy stuff but still get decent enough scores to survive a cutoff in early rounds.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

I'd hate for there to be a situation where someone in D1, for example, really pushes himself to improve throughout the first four weeks of the tourney to the point where he's low SDG'ing the round four song, but his chances of getting through to round 5 is miniscule given really poor first and/or second round score(s). These scores would've barely made it past the elimination threshold for each round if the tourney had followed that format all along, but cumulative scoring up until that point destroys his chances of continuing to round 5 onwards.

What if instead of having a deadline for each round, any of the songs scores could be improved until the cumulative rounds ended? That way if lower division players did strive and improve themselves throughout the weeks of the tournament, they could attack a song from a previous week to represent their current skill. Then there would be no chance a player who skill boosted would be negatively impacted by prior round scores they could improve at their current state.

It also has some additional benefits like:
- Helping reduce the huge chunk of people who end up blowing off the tourney for one reason or another, by allotting them more time for prior songs.
- Giving newer players a greater amount of time to be acclimated to the tournament environment, and getting their barrings.
- A greater incentive to improve, and get the best possible scores you can (because you are never safe unless you AAA this way, since scores in the cumulative rounds could be improved throughout)
- I would also imagine the greater improvement incentive would raise competitive spirits as well

I know this would essentially make "rounds" in the cumulative phase arbitrary though, but it's just a thought. This also has nothing to do with the elimination portion of the tournament. What would be problematic with something like this?

[Bluearrowll]

Seems like a well thought out idea. I'm all for it.

[One Winged Angel]

@foxfire, I was going to mention that as a way to circumvent the issue with this new structure, but I didn't like that idea given the varying timeframes that'd be given to submit scores for each file (sort of like an inverted pyramid...four weeks for the first file, three for the second, two for third, one for fourth). And creating a period where ultimately four files will have overlapping submission times just wouldn't feel right for the official.

There's the possibility of releasing all four files at once but that doesn't seem right either. I really like the 'round' sequence and don't think we should stray away from a week per file, no overlap.

[TC_Halogen]

Yeah, I don't like the feeling of having multiple rounds open at once. I wouldn't give players more than a week to submit for a given round. It completely destroys any sort of structure that the official used to have.

[EzExZeRo7497]

Definitely like this idea, but the problem is that it doesn't necessarily help low D7 players at all, which is the main purpose of this idea to begin with. I'll elaborate on it more after my exam.

[Poison-]

Originally Posted by EzExZeRo7497

Definitely like this idea, but the problem is that it doesn't necessarily help low D7 players at all, which is the main purpose of this idea to begin with. I'll elaborate on it more after my exam.

I get what you're saying, but I think the point of the idea is to have the low D7 players actually able to participate in more than just one or two rounds of the tournament. This way they're getting at least 4.

[Staiain]

Lmao did you get this idea with me in mind, it's like that post is 100 % working my way except my name's not in it

[Doug31]

I think all divisions should be run the same way. A player that's one of the weakest to make the cutoff for another division isn't going to want to be eliminated in the first round. This is true regardless of which division it's in.

But I think this would actually discourage players from trying even more for the most part. This is because with an average over many rounds, the weaker players have even less of a chance to win since the better players will do better in more of the rounds to get a better total score so that it'd be far too hard for a bad player to upset a good player. I.e., even if they were actually in more rounds, they'd still find reason to essentially give up even sooner than if it were elimination.

I think the normal elimination way is the best and should be done for all divisions. It works and doesn't really have many drawbacks. It keeps players on their toes working hard to stay in the tournament in each round. It's far more exciting at the end of a round to see some people eliminated than a couple people moved up and down a little in a cumulative score.

[Salitz]

I'm for this across the board for all divisions. The whole season -> playoff feel seems pretty interesting to me. I have to disagree (to a point) that this wouldn't take away much of that classic cut-throat tension you get off of an elimination every round. Generally speaking, the first 2 rounds, for the majority of divisions, is more of a cut-off for inactives than anything else. I've never had it happen to me personally, but it has to suck to be in the handful of people who actually played and still got eliminated early. Implementing something like this makes the tournament more enjoyable to the community as whole, and you don't have people dropping off the face of the earth as soon as they get eliminated. Notice how the activity in the tourney thread dies every year after a few weeks? Yeah.

Now about the argument regarding D1 players not having a chance to skillboost; if they're a lower tier player in their division that's really trying hard to improve, is it not possible they would be eliminated early regardless? To me that would kinda take my ambition away. Having the 4 cumulative rounds may stack the odds against them, but it's better than being out completely.

TL;DR - This would make it more enjoyable for everyone, and you shouldn't base the tournament layout around people skillboosting

[TheSaxRunner05]

Originally Posted by Salitz

I'm for this across the board for all divisions. The whole season -> playoff feel seems pretty interesting to me. I have to disagree (to a point) that this wouldn't take away much of that classic cut-throat tension you get off of an elimination every round. Generally speaking, the first 2 rounds, for the majority of divisions, is more of a cut-off for inactives than anything else. I've never had it happen to me personally, but it has to suck to be in the handful of people who actually played and still got eliminated early. Implementing something like this makes the tournament more enjoyable to the community as whole, and you don't have people dropping off the face of the earth as soon as they get eliminated. Notice how the activity in the tourney thread dies every year after a few weeks? Yeah.

Now about the argument regarding D1 players not having a chance to skillboost; if they're a lower tier player in their division that's really trying hard to improve, is it not possible they would be eliminated early regardless? To me that would kinda take my ambition away. Having the 4 cumulative rounds may stack the odds against them, but it's better than being out completely.

TL;DR - This would make it more enjoyable for everyone, and you shouldn't base the tournament layout around people skillboosting

Agreed

[shenjoku]

I fully support this idea. As someone who's gotten knocked out first round every tournament I've been in it's kinda frustrating and feels like I get nothing out of it.

[rCaliberGX]

+1 to this

i'm pretty sure i'm the slower non-viking version of player A in the example llol

[yo man im awesome]

If nothing else, it would certainly be a good experiment for future tournaments. Give it a shot, see how it turns out!

[DefconZero]

Do it up!

[MixMasterLar]

Originally Posted by Doug31

I think all divisions should be run the same way. A player that's one of the weakest to make the cutoff for another division isn't going to want to be eliminated in the first round. This is true regardless of which division it's in.

But I think this would actually discourage players from trying even more for the most part. This is because with an average over many rounds, the weaker players have even less of a chance to win since the better players will do better in more of the rounds to get a better total score so that it'd be far too hard for a bad player to upset a good player. I.e., even if they were actually in more rounds, they'd still find reason to essentially give up even sooner than if it were elimination.

I think the normal elimination way is the best and should be done for all divisions. It works and doesn't really have many drawbacks. It keeps players on their toes working hard to stay in the tournament in each round. It's far more exciting at the end of a round to see some people eliminated than a couple people moved up and down a little in a cumulative score.

I fully agree.

[drizzleRomanceGirl]

I don't like the idea of a non-elimination tournament, even for only D7, because I enjoy the idea of being able to pass a round based on your skill, which would give me a sense of accomplishment. I also wouldn't like if this idea was only for the first half of the tournament. If people know they won't get eliminated until half of the tournament is over, they might not be motivated to do well for the first half of the tournament, and they won't have as much fun. I do, however, like the idea of cumulative scoring, so I suggest that we still have an elimination tournament for all the divisions, but instead of the eighth round going to the person who scored the highest for just that particular round, I think it should go to person who receives the highest total score of all eight rounds among the remaining players in the last round.

[Zephei]

I like this idea. Non-elimination for the first few rounds caters to players with different skill-sets, like those in D7 who score higher on harder songs and relatively poorly on the easier ones. Personally, I would enjoy staying in the tournament for a couple of extra rounds, not for a better chance to place, but just to participate.

There's little inherent bias in the final placing when extending this to all divisions, although it's more obvious for D1-6.

[Viisbyxa]

Originally Posted by drizzleRomanceGirl

I do, however, like the idea of cumulative scoring, so I suggest that we still have an elimination tournament for all the divisions, but instead of the eighth round going to the person who scored the highest for just that particular round, I think it should go to person who receives the highest total score of all eight rounds among the remaining players in the last round.

That would punish skillboosts and reward people who kept a very similar (and relatively high) level of skill throughout the tournament. I'd think that usually skillboosts are more indicative of working hard at winning (not in all cases, but in general), and it would be really disappointing to work hard at it and then lose after the last round because you weren't able to do as well in early rounds.