Ingame Song Information

[bmah]

Originally Posted by stavie33

Xeno-flow is really easy, it's just a high VC, 74, not even 75, it's a common misconception, I can AAA it on demand now pretty much, with some slight exceptions, but yeah, it's not FMO material, especially compared to For FFR, MAMA, Szeretscetlan, and Bus Rides with People

Common misconception? It's called an opinion. v.v

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by bmah

Common misconception? It's called an opinion. v.v

point taken

and I'm not saying Xeno-flow is easy, I'm saying compared to FMO's and other high VC's it's on the easier scale. I compare every VC to Kanon-Kanon, the song I still think is 100% FMO material, and Xeno-flow can't even compare. Same with BRWP, if that becomes FMO, then Kanon-Kanon needs FMO rating too

[Redorigami]

Xeno-flow has awkward patterns near the end with the beats on the 16ths, those long 16th run sections can get pretty annoying to PA sometimes, it has a fast jumpy section around 1200 IIRC, a few sets of jump trills in just about every way possible to jump trill, etc.

Kanon-Kanon has that whole long easy section in the beginning, and besides for two trills and the chain section is a fairly simple file, which I think is about the same difficulty as Xeno-flow all in all, so I don't see how you can say it doesn't compare, unless you have mental blocks or something.

And I've already put out my opinion on BRWP.

Szerencsetlen has like what, 2? 3? slow sections. The difficult parts of Szerenc are a few of the 32nds, and the length of it. The 24th gallop trills aren't really that difficult if you play it one or two times and know where they are. None of the patterns are all too difficult to hit, and there isn't an excessive amount of jumps, let alone any jacks.

M.A.M.A. also only really is hard during the 16th run pattern at the beginning and then later in the song, and the 32nds are kind of awkward. Otherwise that file isn't that much either to be saying is all that difficult.

For FFR is piss easy except for the one long roll at the end, that shouldn't even be considered as that hard of a VC.

I fail to see what you're getting at by saying that it isn't FMO compared to any of these. They're all around the same difficulty level, none of them really stand out above the others by any considerable amount, and you can't really argue that if any of these is made FMO, so should any other.

[[TeRa]]

The cutoff for FMO should be raised IMO. I don't disagree with a single VC being a VC, but I certainly do disagree with certain FMOs not being VC.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by [TeRa]

The cutoff for FMO should be raised IMO. I don't disagree with a single VC being a VC, but I certainly do disagree with certain FMOs not being VC.

agreed, and welcome back Tera!

@redorigami

I see what you say, I guess it's just different opinions, Xeno-flow requires ability to read and PA awkward patterns, while Kanon-Kanon requires insane speed and accuracy, which I only have trouble with the trill, I can't jump jack it no matter what, I AAA'd once though, but probably never again. Szeretscetlen has even trickier patterns than Xeno-flow, and longer length, and MAMA has evil trills at the end (my ONLY problem with the song is the one handed trill, b/c you're tired of using your right hand and then a long trill hits you before the end). So I guess it's a difference in opinion, oh yeah, For FFR is a joke until the end, but the end will stop you from AAA'ing more than half the easy FMO's will. And why is Balloon Fever a 75? I vote 73, MAYBE 74

[qqwref]

Maybe we should make For FFR a 9. Seriously. It fits in with a lot of the other tricky 9s that have been popping up recently (compare: Felys, Nanairopanda, Washamanoose's OP, Tell Me A Story) which seem to have one or two parts that are really hard to PA with the rest of the song being really simple. Or you could just make the really, really tricky 9s (the ones with <100 AAAs that have been out for a while) into 10s. I kind of feel that the 9-10 line is quite blurry; there are a bunch of 9s that are really hard to PA and thus probably ought to be 10s, and there are also a bunch of 10s that are really easy to PA (mostly simple stream stuff, look at the VCs with the most AAAs) and thus probably ought to be 9s.

PS: For the VC/FMO line, my criterion is basically "If someone can AAA this, do they deserve Oni?" So I think that might be why I tend to rate very hard VCs as low FMOs. For potential low FMOs I'm really comparing to the easy ones, such as LW4/NWE/GoSW/SC, rather than mid- or high-level FMOs. If I look at a VC AAA and go "whoa, that guy must be really good to have AAA'd that", it generally means I'd rate that VC as a low FMO.

[Redorigami]

Tell Me A Story and Felys do have very tricky parts, I will agree with that, but they are shorter and easier to do than a long roll, because rolls by nature require more skill to PA.

[EAGAMES]

Everyone is getting better. I think everything should be like bumped down, like all the [Oni] get songs should be VCs. They're not even hard, especially compared to the new difficulties and type of files FFR is recieving.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by EAGAMES

Everyone is getting better. I think everything should be like bumped down, like all the [Oni] get songs should be VCs. They're not even hard, especially compared to the new difficulties and type of files FFR is recieving.

I totally agree with this statement

I felt that the line is so blurry, and so many songs are filling that line, that a new difficulty should be instated (or just stated in this thread instead of the game) that helps the dividing line. I asked for this before I think, but it was like a FEO (for experts only). It would include the high VC's and low FMO's (73's-79's) and FMO would contain 80-85 (get rid of all the annoying easier FGO's) and 86+ is FGO (which means RATO doesn't need a 13th difficulty)

That's just my idea, but it will probably never happen, since it's literally redefining the categories

[EAGAMES]

Originally Posted by stavie33

I totally agree with this statement

I felt that the line is so blurry, and so many songs are filling that line, that a new difficulty should be instated (or just stated in this thread instead of the game) that helps the dividing line. I asked for this before I think, but it was like a FEO (for experts only). It would include the high VC's and low FMO's (73's-79's) and FMO would contain 80-85 (get rid of all the annoying easier FGO's) and 86+ is FGO (which means RATO doesn't need a 13th difficulty)

That's just my idea, but it will probably never happen, since it's literally redefining the categories

I totally agree with this statement. D:

Oh, for the record, Xeno-Flow's difficulty is NOT controversial. It's NOT FMO material. BRWP is NOT a FMO, but more like a mid VC because some bursts are gay I guess. Low VC if we're going by stavie/my standards. Kanon-Kanon isn't even close. iirc trilling at a fast BPM is the only hard part.

Oh, did I mention Xeno-Flow is NOT FMO material? kthnx.

[qqwref]

Why can't we keep [Oni] at the same difficulty? There are plenty of people who have gotten it on songs that would definitely not be considered FMO now, and that's annoying to me because I don't have [Oni]. Given my ranks on low to mid FMOs, I know I'm at least in the top 428 players here; and yet 428 people have [Oni] and I don't. I don't think that the requirements for a skill token should get harder just because players who have already done the requirement 50 times over think it's too easy.

Personally I don't think we should keep moving the difficulties down so that the best players are always competing on FGO songs. I am more in favor of keeping the difficulties where they are and just accepting the fact that we have a higher proportion of high-difficulty songs than we used to (and maybe that the hardest songs have a higher difficulty than we used to allow for). There's nothing that says 12 has to be the highest difficulty, either - if you think FGO is getting too wide, why not just push the harder songs into 13? I mean, that's what happened on pad, the original difficulty 10 got too easy, but instead of continually making the requirements for a song to be a 10 (or whatever) harder, so that you had to keep improving to stay where you were, they just started giving songs difficulties of 11, 12, and so on. I think it's better that way, because then someone who could comfortably pass 12s in 2003 would still be able to do that in 2007 if they stayed at the same skill level... that would just be ranked worse in the community. I don't think difficulty levels should reflect how good the community is or how many people can FC/AAA them (subjective rankings), just how hard the song itself is (objective rankings).

[krunkykai22]

I've never posted in this thread, but I kinda have one opinion on one FMO song, and that would be silence. People talk about NWE/LW4/etc. being a very low FMO song. However, imo, silence would probably be the easiest FMO song that is out there right now. If you compare that to sympathizer or vertex beta; I have a 30 good FC on vertex beta, compared to an SDG on silence. I feel that silence should be bumped down to a VC rather than a FMO. As for lowering the standards, I agree but disagree. By lowering the standards of the levels, it's not really gonna help make anyone better. Rather then quite the opposite. IF ANYTHING, raise some of the levels imo. But its just that, my opinion xD.

[Gilly G]

I'm going to have to agree with qqwref's point. Just because the players are getting better does not mean the difficulties should be modified. Perhaps the players who have been here longer are better, but there are always more recent players that see our easier songs as their harder songs. Once again, this is opinions fighting on difficulty ratings, and will lead us nowhere.

It's much easier to incorporate something new too. If we change the system, EVERYTHING has to change, while if we just add something, nothing else changes other than what was added.

In other words, keep all 1-11 difficulties (while still arguing over borderline songs xD) but widen the 12s to 13+s to differentiate them more. As I have seen stated numerous times, there is a huge gap between the easier FGOs that people AAA and the harder FGOs that people have trouble FCing and there must be a way to differentiate those by difficulty since they are not on the same scale.



Here is a little thing I would like to add on my part concerning borderline songs. Many times have I seen people argue over the difficulty of these, many saying they should be lower, others saying they should be higher. But most often a given song is difficult because of a certain section. Maybe instead of giving an average difficulty, songs should be based more on the patterns (eg. stream, jumpstream, handstream, speed, jacks, length, etc ...). Of course, there would need to be several ratings for each of these factors, and the given difficulty of the song (1-12 with the current system) would be chosen based on an average of all of these factors (or something of the like).

This way, if someone was having trouble on a certain VC, they would look here and tell themselves 'Hmm, speed is at 5/10 so that shouldn't be a problem, but jacks are a 7/10, perhaps that's why I'm having trouble.'

Of course, this would change the whole system, but this is not a suggestion aiming to bump all difficulties down, it is to make them clearer. I am not saying it will stop there being borderline songs because they will always be there. I am also not saying people will stop disagreeing with these difficulties, because once again, it is all based on opinions.

[IgroMAN]

I'm totally agree with qqwref:

Why can't we keep [Oni] at the same difficulty? There are plenty of people who have gotten it on songs that would definitely not be considered FMO now, and that's annoying to me because I don't have [Oni]. Given my ranks on low to mid FMOs, I know I'm at least in the top 428 players here; and yet 428 people have [Oni] and I don't. I don't think that the requirements for a skill token should get harder just because players who have already done the requirement 50 times over think it's too easy.

And disagree with EAGAMES:

I think everything should be like bumped down, like all the [Oni] get songs should be VCs.

As you can see I'm in top 100 by all rankings BUT I still havent get [Oni] and raising up requirements will make this token impossible for me for a years. Thank you.

[Patashu]

I assumed that the implication was [Oni] songs would stay [Oni] only now they'd be the toughest VCs instead of the easiest FMOs.

[stavie33]

Originally Posted by IgroMAN

As you can see I'm in top 100 by all rankings BUT I still havent get [Oni] and raising up requirements will make this token impossible for me for a years. Thank you.

Oni was supposed to be THE impossible token that no one would get but 6-7 people. When it first came out, only people at the level of Shash, Darkshark, and Ledwix could get it. The bar on Oni has lowered so drastically that the entire reason the token req existed has been destroyed. Now so many people have it, it's not even a big deal anymore. That's why, to restore the original difficulty Oni deserves, we should move it to only 79-82 difficulty songs instead of 76-79.

[Patashu]

it's not going to do much good now that lots of people have [Oni]; instead of drastically redefining the requirements and either pissing people off who have it (by taking it away from them) or those who don't (by making it almost possible for them to get it), make a new token. [Edit] or something, unlocks Otaku Speedvibe [Edit].
AAA an FGO? Lolo, Reality, Frictional Nevada, Gymnastics?, Pants or Ketsarku Mozgalom.
High FMOs could qualify too: Club, RunnyMorning, Big Blue, 4 Chord Touhou, Demon Fire, Eradication, maybe FFLBF, maybe Setsujou, maybe 300...

[Coolboyrulez0]

New 15 difficulty rating system is the solution

[Patashu]

p. sure that's not going to happen, as much as I would like to see VC-FMO cut up a bit finer so they're not overwhelmingly huge before C (or maybe spread simfiles naturally gravitate towards the VC level...hmm)

[One Winged Angel]

+1 for otaku speedvibe [edit], although I don't ever see it happening since we haven't had a new skill token in 50 years

AAA a FGO would be a good req for it, although I suppose stretching it out to reach 82/83 level FMOs wouldn't be terrible

It'd be nice if some sort of script could be written that automatically gives you oni once you AAA any FMO, and edit once you AAA any FGO (assuming the token gets implemented)