TWG CIX: Lames' Hosting a TWG Ball Post-Game (Wolves win)

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by Charu

I hate you Mr. Cubone, you're a bad pokemon, and you made me cry!

I am charizard

You are rhydon

<3

[Xiz]

Actually wait, This is better:

[HansSky]

Originally Posted by Tps222

I don't know how people gave Xiz a pass when he literally told me that he'd insta himself as a human if he were roleblocked.

fwiw I read that and I think its what should happen if the situation were to arise so I didn't take anything from it

[Charu]

Originally Posted by Xiz

Actually wait, This is better:

I'm telling your mother, Marowak!

[Xiz]

jokes on you she's dead

HAHAHAHAHHahahahaha.... hah... hah... h.... :'(

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by Tps222

I don't know how people gave Xiz a pass when he literally told me that he'd insta himself as a human if he were roleblocked.

I don't see where you explained why that quote was so wolfy though. I had to sit there and think for a while to get a hint of what you were getting at. and that's if Xiz were successfully roleblocked, as in, if no kill went through. I think you could've made a convincing case with that log, and imo you didn't.

Originally Posted by Tps222

You can try to say the humans were inactive, but that's selling our effort short. The thread was inactive, and thats something that most TWG Players Post 2009 view as inactive. On the contrary though, Hans, Jurs and myself probably have mounds of raw data in skype logs that dwarfs anything posted in the thread. I can easily say I personally invested at least 20 hours last week into my Xiz/Bynary digging and discussing.

I fell short by not making more substantiated and convincing posts, but to criticize the human effort for lack of interest or posting is a downright fucking joke and is disrespectful to the time and emotion (its ok hans haha) collectively put into this.

I don't mean to say "the humans did nothing and didnt try and that's why wolves won." that's not what I mean at all, and you're right to call me out on it if that's what it sounded like. I just don't think "blues were newbs and greens were dumb" is a fitting summary either. humans got outplayed by wolves in this game. one team beat the other. that's it. it's still really cool to see activity on both sides, which has been a positive trend for a number of games now.

[DarkManticoreX2]

Jurs is right in most regards IMO.

A lot of the newer humans suffer from trying to read the thread too much, almost to the point of not interacting with it.

The humans need to make noise specifically to create points of contention. It forces the wolves to take stances, and the more stances the wolves have to take, the more chances the humans have to call them out on them.

Look at last game where we humans won. We created 4-5 points of heavy contention. That rooted out the wolves.

We had only 2 points of contention this game. Tps's lynch and D3 when I defended Xiz. I tried setting up a point of contention on D3, but it was too late, I missed almost all D1 due to being sick, and spent most of D2 catching up. By the time I was ready to go d3 we had lost too much time to really have solid leads develop.

I feel bad for defending Xiz, that might have been the turning point in the game. I still think it was comical you guys lynched me though. I don't think i've ever been that aggressive as a wolf.

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2

Jurs is right in most regards IMO.

A lot of the newer humans suffer from trying to read the thread too much, almost to the point of not interacting with it.

do you think jTWG is a solution, though? vets could be coaxing new players into interacting more and fleshing out a set of player relationships and creating points of contention and whatnot. I could be wrong as I was spectating pretty casually, but I feel like (in-thread) I just saw humans trying to call out wolf teams.

edit: granted, what I saw was humans trying to pick out wolves based on mislynch wagons, tone, reactions, etc. those are all valid and I respect the effort. I just think that saying other humans weren't doing their part - especially in an OOT game - doesn't fully hold up.

[James May]

Anyhow, I guess my hosting was better \o/ Though I let out few unconscious slips :c gotta learn the art of beep bop boop modes ;_;

[DarkManticoreX2]

Originally Posted by dAnceguy117

do you think jTWG is a solution, though? vets could be coaxing new players into interacting more and fleshing out a set of player relationships and creating points of contention and whatnot. I could be wrong as I was spectating pretty casually, but I feel like (in-thread) I just saw humans trying to call out wolf teams.

See, I started out in Jtwg, and I worked my way up. I was a newb, the players around me were newbs. In a vacuum someone steps up. In my first game, it wasn't me. It was Mamimi. But eventually I did step up and I made mistakes, but I got the practice leading. How can guest get the practice leading an alliance and become an effective leader when Hans and I and V are running around undermining his decisions because we think we know better? Playing in a game where there aren't vets, forces newer players to step up. As long as I'm playing in a game, I'm going to enforce my will, and I'm going to hinder the growth of a newer player. I'm going to say you're wrong I'm right.

TL;DR:

Having vets play in games with newer people tends to create reliance issues, which hinders new player development.

[dAnceguy117]

I can see the merit in that. personally though, I found the "big leagues" to be more intimidating once I finally worked my way up the totem pole than if I had been thrown into the deep end at the start. it was put on a pedestal, and I still didn't feel comfortable with any kind of leadership role as long as I was playing in the same game as tasselfoot.

throwing my own vote out there, I would rather play with everyone and live with the ups and downs than segregate the games. setting an informal cycle of complicated setups versus newb-friendly setups and running them alongside each other makes sense to me.

even though I see the merit of a farm system, I'm not a fan. I can't get behind it. I like the aspect of Xiz and YMIA and Funnygurl and Silvuh showing up after their first couple of games and playing pivotal roles in games' outcomes.

how bout new players step up in a "vacuum" after manti gets lynched day 1?

[JurseyRider734]

Originally Posted by dAnceguy117

do you think jTWG is a solution, though? vets could be coaxing new players into interacting more and fleshing out a set of player relationships and creating points of contention and whatnot. I could be wrong as I was spectating pretty casually, but I feel like (in-thread) I just saw humans trying to call out wolf teams.

edit: granted, what I saw was humans trying to pick out wolves based on mislynch wagons, tone, reactions, etc. those are all valid and I respect the effort. I just think that saying other humans weren't doing their part - especially in an OOT game - doesn't fully hold up.

this game was very active behind the scenes. after a while, i set up a group chat with me, hans & tps just because we mostly trusted eachother and we were all talking so much to eachother individually that it needed to be made. we talked a LOT in that. we werent speculating about wolf teams. we were speculating about individuals. then after that, we'd say "yeah a x/x/x wolf team seems likely". we were all very invested in this game and we were really trying to figure out who the wolves were. i dont think any of the other humans showed that amount of interest except for sunfan.

furthermore, it isn't so much that the new players need to be active. its that the new players also need to be making smart decisions. throwing them in to a game with vets isnt going to force them to make smart decisions. experience will. experience they should be getting in a jTWG instead of making everyone else who knows how to play suffer because the noobs keep making stupid decisions. our doctor got caught because our jailkeeper did something dumb. other "new" green players kept making stupid and incriminating posts. our doctor also was making other people super suspicious of him for making bad/incriminating posts. after a while of me/hans/tps going "well i cant tell if this person is being dumb or if this is a strategy" and EVERY SINGLE TIME it ended up being "ok this person is dumb", i started to get extremely frustrated with the game not because we weren't killing wolves but because the new people were a huge hindrance to the game. no one should have to be so frustrated that they think "id honestly rather just lynch this dumb person just to get rid of them than someone i suspect might be a wolf". i wasn't the only one who expressed those sentiments.

[j-rodd123]

long hair don't care

[dAnceguy117]

what decisions exactly?

from what I saw, blanky got exposed because Guest made an ill-advised announcement in a skype chat. maybe if a central figure in a game is going to propose a strategy which affects the game to that extent, it should be outside of IMs and there should be a line in BIG HUGE TEXT saying GUARDIAN SHOULD NOT CLAIM TO JAILKEEPER UNTIL DAY 2 and JAILKEEPER SHOULD SAY ABSOLUTELY NO WORDS ABOUT THE CLAIM TO ANYONE. it was a solid plan, but I'm not so sure that the whole game hinged on that. I find it to be a somewhat minor detail actually.

what are these stupid and incriminating posts? to me, they are posts which you see as stupid and incriminating. I think there are still ways to filter out extraneous noise from the real signals you're looking for. what happens if all of these new players adapt to the point where they not only avoid these posts as humans, but avoid making the posts as wolves as well? who do you lynch then? this game isn't easy and it shouldn't be easy.

ok I've said a lot of stuff barely related to this game in particular so I'm gonna shut my trap. I know jTWG is a Hot Topic so I look forward to a discussion thread or two.

[Brilliant Dynamite Neon]

Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2

See, I started out in Jtwg, and I worked my way up. I was a newb, the players around me were newbs. In a vacuum someone steps up. In my first game, it wasn't me. It was Mamimi. But eventually I did step up and I made mistakes, but I got the practice leading. How can guest get the practice leading an alliance and become an effective leader when Hans and I and V are running around undermining his decisions because we think we know better? Playing in a game where there aren't vets, forces newer players to step up. As long as I'm playing in a game, I'm going to enforce my will, and I'm going to hinder the growth of a newer player. I'm going to say you're wrong I'm right.

TL;DR:

Having vets play in games with newer people tends to create reliance issues, which hinders new player development.

This right here would be the slam dunk in the case for jTWGs IMO. However, I think dAnceguy has a point in that it can be a big, intimidating step from jTWGs to normal TWGs in that case.

I think a possible solution would be to run games in cycles.

Run 2 sets of separated games (jTWG/TWG), and then run a mixed game, (TWGmix) where a certain amount of slots are reserved for the jTWG crowd, but outside of that anyone can join. It could be an awesome, purpose-built learning experience; having learned to think and lead for themselves, the newer players could develop their skills further by applying this against more experienced players, and in post-game discussion the regulars could serve as guides to the players, working with them to improve their craft.

I would add more but I'm dead tired. Pretty soon I'm going to do a big update of the Community Initiative THread.

[James May]

Originally Posted by Charu

I hate you Mr. Cubone, you're a bad pokemon, and you made me cry!

[dAnceguy117]

hey sorry for clogging this thread btw. I should've saved my rants for discussion threads.

'grats to Xiz, Bynary, and Funnygurl for pulling off the deathless victory. y'all went hard.

nice effort from the humans. there were a lot of really good reads which unfortunately for the non-reddies didn't pan out into lynches. a warm welcome back to hans and jurs. I think the gif spam post was my favorite of the game. Blanket and Guest, hope you guys keep playing!

James nice job hosting. frequent vote tallies are sweeeeet.

[James May]

ty Pete B3 Can I get best host award once I do one with good story & votes :3?

[DarkManticoreX2]

Archived 5-22-2014 12:20 PM EST