Is veganism wrong?

[vro]

I'm getting tired of trying to argue in this thread. Whenever posts of mine are quoted, certain points I make are always completely ignored.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Your argument for thinking vegetarianism is stupid... If you really think its wrong to abuse animals too, you should by no means be eating most meats. Seriously, pigs in factory farms die from the noxious fumes of their own shit. Egg-laying chickens barely live a year before they loose all their feathers from being jammed so badly into cages that they can't even turn around. And all that so that your egg can cost you 25 cents instead of 80 cents...And you can't get mad at me for preaching here, as if I'm shoving this down your throat. I didn't make the thread.

If you look at the post you quoted from me, I clearly say...

Originally Posted by vro

If you're vegetarian, thats fine.

As far as the way animals are treated in factories and farms, I can see your argument, really, I can. And I agree that the way they are killed is a pretty sad fact in today's society. But, in the end, they die anyway, right? Now then, you could argue that any living being's destiny is to die someday, but these animals that are killed for their meat are destined to be killed. Since their lives exist for this sole reason, does it really matter if they are killed nicely or not-so-nice? I would prefer if animals could be killed in a more "humane" way, but things like PETA aren't going to change that. Besides, have you ever lived in the wild? Animals like bears and wolves don't instantly kill their prey if they don't want to. Hell, they can end up torturing them for hours. But we don't make a big deal out of that, do we?

Here is the last point I want to make, which I'll start with this quote from an earlier post of mine:

Originally Posted by vro

If you are vegan, fine, I'm not going to hate you or anything, but I do find veganism to be extremely stupid.

Now then, let me explain what I mean by this in more detail. I agree that veganism is a choice, and there isn't a right or wrong answer to whether or not it is okay. Thus, if YOU are vegan, thats fine! I'm not gonna think of you as a bad person just because you're vegan(but if you shove it down my throat, then my opinion of you will go for the worse.) However, I would never want to be vegan, so I PERSONALLY find it to be stupid for ME. I've said this before and I'll say it again; its like the ordeal with gay people. Am I gay? No. Would I ever be gay? No, I would personally find that to be disgusting. Do I think you're disgusting if you're gay? No, some of my best friends are gay. Now then, I didn't say that to start some argument of whether you're born with it or if its choice, but the point I'm trying to make is that just because I PERSONALLY find something to be revolting doesn't necesarilly mean I find someone else to be revolting just because they decide to do it. And Syhto, calm the hell down. There is nothing wrong with you trying to state your points and opinions, thats what this forum is for. However, there is no need to act like everyone else who doesn't agree with you is a complete retard, its a bit ridiculous.

[Syhto]

no. i am calm, i just like using exclamation points. the feigned anger is supposed to help get my point across. but obviously people want to keep dancing around that so nvm. wish actual info could be discussed, rather than the same tired judgments that float around with little thought put into them. w/e. I just think if you're going to post in critical thinking you should think critically about the subject and have something to bring to the table. but that's in an ideal world and this is ffr, so what am I even typing for

[supermousie]

You answered your own question.

Originally Posted by Syhto

that's in an ideal world and this is ffr, so what am I even typing for

U mad?

[poleaxe]

I eat meat more than probably any other food group and I am healthy... Want to know how? I don't eat tons of sweets and I EXERCISE! So if its about being healthy and fit then just exercise you lazy twits.

If it's about the animals being killed, well, I'm sorry. Sure it would be nice if the farms and factories would stop torturing animals... that would be great and I'm all for it, but, it wont happen just because you go vegan. I'm pretty sure you would have a very difficult time converting enough people into vegetarians or vegans to stop it from happening.

Humans are supposed to eat meat by nature. Vegans and vegetarians choose not to. I respect that and I wont bother you over it. For Pete's sake though, give me the same respect. Way too often vegans and vegetarians think they are better than someone because they want to eat meat. Then they get pushy and rude about it saying that the person is wrong for doing so. SHOVE OFF!

To answer the question of the thread... No, being vegan is not wrong, it is just in my opinion unnecessary.

[Cavernio]

That humans needed to eat meat to survive back then does not mean that we do now. That is the only point I was making.

Funny that I am 'preaching' veganism, when I am not vegan or even vegetarian. You started a thread, yet as soon as there is discussion that may make argument, when someone opposes your view, you call it preaching. Just because the only factors I find are 'pros' to not being vegan/vegetarian are that it is easy and tasty does not mean I do not see those sides to the argument. They just happen to be, well, ignoble reasons to eat meat.

I am not going to touch the health issue with a 10 foot pole besides the fact that people can live as vegetarian and even vegans their whole lives.

I furthermore have not complained so much about animal deaths in eating the animals, but rather, how the live. Pigs dying to fumes, I'm assuming that's not normal. However, egg-laying chickens being stuffed into cages is totally normal, and any egg you buy that does not say free range or free run or organic means those chickens entire lives were to live in that cage, no room to turn around, where they essentially peck each other to death, even with trimmed beaks.
I am not vegetarian myself because I don't have issue with us raising animals and then eating them, or even killing them, or even killing them in a particularly painful way. It is the animal's life that matters to me. Even though we decided to bring that animal into being, is gruesome to then force that animal into a life of cruelty. You buy and eat tortured animals 99% of the time unless it is otherwise said, because the norm is to have factory farmed animals, because it is cheap.
If you want to eat meat, fine. But don't say that the animals you eat are by and large treated well. If you want people to stop talking to you about what you eat, then accept the fact that animals we raise are treated like shit and you, yes you, are partly responsible for that if you buy that food.
I don't care that you don't call me stupid. I care that you think veganism is stupid. That is why I am arguing for it.
Furthermore, again, the ecological value of not raising animals to eat is huge. If the human population is going to grow much more, its going to come down to giving land and food to cows or people.

[Aldentron]

I attended my friend's vegan potluck birthday party last night and the food was great. This movie came up in conversation, and it covers the health issues that come with eating meat. I haven't seen it yet but I would like to, and the trailer makes it seem like it would answer a lot of questions posed about the vegan diet vs. omnivore diet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ijukNzlUg

Note to everyone who doesn't want to be preached to: My friends told me that this movie does not say the word "vegan," but only "plant-based diets." Please look past any preconceptions you have about food industry documentaries before you judge.

And now for my replies to everything in this thread so far:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

You can eat what you want, but if you're at a restaurant and offered some meat, it would be rather disrespectful to just deny it entirely just so you can be consistent and worry about sticking with a no-meat policy.

I don't really care about respect for other's cooking when it comes to my diet. If some one put a gun on my plate would it be disrespectful to deny it? I know that's rather an exaggeration of your point and I shouldn't really have used THAT example, but really, why should it be disrespectful of me to not want to eat ANYTHING? I'd rather not be cooked for than be cooked something I do not wish to eat. I don't think I've EVER been put in a position where I had to eat something just for the sake of respect, anyways.

Originally Posted by Syhto

2) They have a desire to live in a sustainable way. That means reasonable portions of locally grown food, and less emphasis on meat.

This is the biggest thing for me. The meat industry is NOT sustainable. You can grow tomatoes in your own backyard, but you can't raise and slaughter a cow there (unless you live out in a rural area, I suppose you would have to have some equipment too.) At the same time, the meat industry provides jobs for something that isn't even close to entirely necessary, making an economy based on things we don't really need.

Meat only has a couple of notable vitamins in it, and those can all be found in plants and legumes. As long as you have some protein, iron, calcium, and Vitamin B12 you're pretty much set.

For protein peanut butter works wonders, spinach has iron in it, as well as kale (form of cabbage) that also has a significant amount of calcium. On the websites I looked at, there were no vegan sources of B12, but there are, of course, dietary supplements for that.

Originally Posted by vro

but its just the fact that the extreme majority of vegans act like they are higher in society or some crap like that.

This is where I have to pull the bullshit card. You're making a sweeping generalization that is most likely biased. Don't let the world's most outspoken animal right's group ruin the reputation of millions of people. More than half of my friends are vegan and I've never been preached to about my diet for eating meat. The only thing that even comes close is that they call me a blood-mouth, and I could care less about being called such.

Originally Posted by Syhto

If you cared, you'd research it and be involved, since you don't, you make haphazard judgments.

I'm pretty sure they thought harder and longer about switching to veganism than you ever did about eating what your mother puts on your plate.

A very good point. I once went on a vegetarian stint for 4 years, and that was just because I was a picky eater. Without doing any actual research, there was no real reason not to eat meat. Just do your own research and avoid speculation.

Originally Posted by ~kitty~

Meat is inexpensive. If I had the choice, I would eat more fruits and I suppose more greens. However, I don't buy my food, and whenever I ask for such things, they're like $3.00 for one snack's worth when $3.00 can buy two meals of meat for a family of 4. My numbers may not be completely accurate, but they do reflect how much choice we really have in what we eat.

I think your argument is based on local economy. The more meat is transported, the more it is going to cost on the shelf at the store. If meat is cheaper than fruits and vegetables, then you must not live closer to slaughterhouses than farms. Or you could just not do your own shopping, who knows. I live in Texas which produces a whole HELL of a lot of meat, and I have never seen ground chuck beef cost less than strawberries. Just saying.

Originally Posted by supermousie

Hell, earlier today I found some vegan shampoo and I do quote: "No CFCs, SLS, petrochemicals... Bottle derived from corn... Not tested on animals... Vegan friendly... $23.95". I could see from the amount the store stocked, they maybe sold one bottle a MONTH.

Vegans know where to shop, because they've been doing it for a while. You probably don't shop there, because you're not vegan. Whatever store you were at probably doesn't focus much on vegan goods.

Originally Posted by poleaxe

Humans are supposed to eat meat by nature.

What exactly leads you to believe that humans are SUPPOSED to eat meat? Just because we've been doing it for a long time doesn't mean that's how it always has been. This is the most over-used and inaccurate point that gets used in this sort of conversation, people telling each other what is "natural" like they really have any idea. There are regions of Asia where the majority is vegan and it has been like that for as long as anyone can remember. If you ask me, building slaughterhouses and giant cow pens to mass-produce meat isn't natural.

Originally Posted by vro

But, in the end, they die anyway, right?...Since their lives exist for this sole reason, does it really matter if they are killed nicely or not-so-nice? I would prefer if animals could be killed in a more "humane" way,

You're ignoring the bull in the china shop, as they say. The issue is not HOW animals should be slaughtered, it is that animals ARE slaughtered. Also, if there's a "humane" way of killing things, then I don't want to be "humane."

Originally Posted by Cavernio

The pure amount of protein to stay healthy is hugely over-rated.

And shockingly so. I have a few friends that are into body building, and I looked at their stock of whey protein powder. The package said (and not on a Nutrition Facts table,) that they were supposed to be taking in 160g of protein a day. These guys will now go on living their lives believing that they're supposed to take 110 more grams of protein a day than they're supposed to, whether they work out or not, just because of the packaging on this product. Also because they don't care to do their own research. Which is the status-quo of society, I've come to believe.

I back everything that Syhto and Cavernio have said, people really should do their own research on nutrition and take back their bodies. Also Syhto's pretty calm, if anyone's expressed any anger in this thread it's the people who "don't like veganism being shoved down their throats by that god-damned PETA"

[G.S.M]

Originally Posted by Aldentron

if anyone's expressed any anger in this thread it's the people who "don't like veganism being shoved down their throats by that god-damned PETA"

um, I think its more of that fact that PETA is fking stupid, not just because of that.

[Cavernio]

Here here Aldentron! Even more for the animal's rights than I am.

[bmah]

Originally Posted by Aldentron

I don't really care about respect for other's cooking when it comes to my diet. If some one put a gun on my plate would it be disrespectful to deny it? I know that's rather an exaggeration of your point and I shouldn't really have used THAT example, but really, why should it be disrespectful of me to not want to eat ANYTHING? I'd rather not be cooked for than be cooked something I do not wish to eat. I don't think I've EVER been put in a position where I had to eat something just for the sake of respect, anyways.

I respectfully disagree.

Certain times, especially during special occasions when you're not the host, or even moreso when you visit someone in another country with different customs, priority should be respecting the people serving you because by not doing so you are disrespecting their culture. When comparing culture vs making a statement against practices of the meat industry, I think that culture certainly comes first. So if you are a guest in an unfamiliar/new place, eating what they offer you* shows that you can respect their culture and hospitality in a unselfish manner. Making a decision based singularly on your own belief while disregarding an entire culture is not the way to go.

*different from eating what you choose on a menu yourself
In a setting where you eat with people you know, or in a public restaurant where waiters/waitresses can understand the need to respect their customers, they would understand your needs and beliefs more easily. Not to mention that in these settings, you most likely can choose what you want to eat.

[stargroup100]

I was going to write a serious reply about my opinions on this topic, but they just seemed so trite and only really encompassed a handful of viable ways to look at the issue. Then I read all of your responses and I just lost all desire to type anything at all.

It's quite clear that everyone who posted in this thread is in some way passionate to a topic pertaining to this subject, but I simply can't enter a discussion chock full of fallacies and hasty generalizations.

Can this community please learn how to rationally respond to an argument so I can actually say something meaningful and have it be taken seriously and fairly? (Obviously this doesn't refer to everyone but my point is pretty straightforward.)

[Aldentron]

Originally Posted by bmah

I respectfully disagree.

Certain times, especially during special occasions when you're not the host, or even moreso when you visit someone in another country with different customs, priority should be respecting the people serving you because by not doing so you are disrespecting their culture.

Not that I am an international tourist often in the least, but in this day and age when there are so many more things to worry about, I don't see any reason to cater to ancient standards. Yes, I can appreciate their history and etc., but civilization is so far advanced now that being offended over what you eat is childish. This is just my opinion, I can also reason with the idea that you SHOULD respect other cultures, but not as much.

Also, what stargroup100 said.

[bmah]

I guess you aren't much of a traveller, so it's hard to see it from that way. You really just have to go places and see for yourself, because when you're not in those situations, it's really easy to envision one's idea of what is "reasonable". All I can say is that you missed the point. It's not going back to "archaic standards". It's having some respect and dignity.

Take it as you wish, however.

@Aldentron below: ok, point taken.

[Aldentron]

Originally Posted by bmah

I guess you aren't much of a traveller, so it's hard to see it from that way. You really just have to go places and see for yourself, because when you're not in those situations, it's really easy to envision one's idea of what is "reasonable". All I can say is that you missed the point. It's not going back to "archaic standards". It's having some respect and dignity.

Take it as you wish, however.

You are correct, I am not much of a traveler, and food is very important in some places, but because I don't travel much, this is all irrelevant to me. That was my point. I do understand yours, like I said.

I know that makes me seem insensitive, but I feel a much stronger attachment to where I live as opposed to far-away places, and will always favor change I can see over change I can only hear about.

[Cavernio]

"priority should be respecting the people serving you because by not doing so you are disrespecting their culture. When comparing culture vs making a statement against practices of the meat industry, I think that culture certainly comes first."

Let me first say that we will both be arguing that one value is higher than another, so no responding with 'but now you're not considering my value'. You are saying that to respect a culture is more important than making a statement about the practicies of the meat industry.
However, if you put yourself into a vegetarian's or vegan's shoes, they are not merely making a 'statement'. They are saving a life, or half a life, or whatever amount of meat they refuse, as well as making a statement. Surely we can agree that 'saving a life' is clearly a higher moral than respect.

It is sad how true your argument is though. I don't refuse meat from my bf's family, and they have no idea my switch to eating only animals that I feel have had an untortured life, because it would be awkward to say so, and I seem to have a stance on the whole issue that most people don't share, or at least don't practice. (Ideally, I'd be vegan purely for ecological reasons, but I am weak.)

It really is sad that societal expectations can trump other values, sad how much power they hold over us, regardless of logic, or a higher morality someone may strive for.

Stargroup: Pretend we are all stupid and spell it out for us nonetheless. You disagree with many things, yet expect us to change without telling us what it is we are doing wrong. Pleading people to change without asking people how to change is, well, stupid.

[bmah]

That's probably because a lot of people see vegans as making a statement as opposed to being indirect lifesavers. Saving animals? Regardless, I'd put priority over saving humans, if you want to put it in that light.

[hashishin0420]

I'm all for the message they're trying to put out. I think the government should crack down on the more cruel practices in the agricultural sector. However, I don't think meat-eating itself is immoral, and especially not the consumption of milk and honey. Also, I think if it's not practiced very carefully and with lots of knowlede of nutrition beforehand, malnutrition is very likely to occur.

[Emithith]

Gah, I tried to read everything in this thread but my brain feels like it's gonna explode if I try to read any more of these huge posts. lol

K, There is ONE reason I see that I think EVERYONE should focus on.
Sustainability.

It takes SO much to produce a cow, when we could be using the feed from the cows (which would be like 8x the amount of meat, or so I have heard) to make our meal. I eat meat. I love meat. But there is something to say about how heavy a toll it is on our environment.

1st, it takes alot of methane to overfeed these bulls that fart and produce the methane. 2nd, it takes ENERGY to kill the cows. 3rdly, the shipping that happens, it takes alot of fuel to transfer the meat to stores.

I kinda want to also point out the trauma these cows go through before they get slaughtered. They have to hear their brethren die. They get scared. Believe it or not, these animals have feelings. A part of me wants to say: "Well, they weren't gonna live a long life anyway, so who cares?"

I also want to point out that if we just STOPPED the meat production line these cows would run rampant throughout the lands. They are unable to protect themselves from predators anyway.

Eat meat, or don't. But bear these in mind.

P.S. Cows came from the mighty Aurochs I have heard. Those things are scary. :S
P.S.S. Where the hell is Reach in this thread?

[Emo_Saur_]

Vegans debate with other vegan on Honey, derp. I think they're just ill-informed. PETA has been caught filming videos in other countries trying to pass them as American plants. So, I refuse to be vegan because I am a heartless being when it comes to food.

[Stewie7Griffin]

Originally Posted by darkshark

The vegan lifestyle does not have to be pushed onto anyone else, it's a personal choice.

To be quite honest, at least how I see it anyways, veganism is merely a statement. It'd be kind of pointless to be vegan and not push your views onto others, as I feel people only do it to make a point (that I think is stupid all in all).

[SKG_Scintill]

Personally, I don't believe in veganism