Current State of TWG Poll

[roundbox]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

b) Players talking about replacing out of their own slot will, from now on, be modkilled without exception.

yes please
The rule regarding speculation for their replacement should still be in effect, right?

[Charu]

First and foremost, I'm heavily against the time switching. I absolutely love the current time when phases usually end. It's perfect for me as I'm a huge night owl no matter what.

...

Also, I think once FFR TWG has reached a point where no one complains about inactivity is when I think we should ignore the rule of "not allowing a player play multiple games". Course I think it also depends on the circumstance too. Say a turbo is nearing the end and the game signups for a normal length one pops up... yee.

[Charu]

... I guess after thinking real quick. I wouldn't cry if the phase ends were done an hour earlier (11PM Server).

Also wouldn't cry if it was moved two hours earlier. Earlier than that though... plz no

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Soundwave-

I don't think anything needs to be done about exploits. I think the vast majority of players have an innate concern for the integrity of the game. Anybody who doesn't can be punished accordingly, I don't think we need to hold hands in this regard.

Same feeling with mods, although the solution here is significantly more reasonable, so either way.

Originally Posted by Gradiant

2) Personally don't see anything wrong with the viewing specific posts feature. This has been a thing for quite a while now, and as far back as when I first started playing games here every time I've rolled wolf I've been sure to make sure I'm not logged in if going through the thread during a night phase. Doing so is really easy to do and doesn't ruin the game.

3) Not necessary. Mods and higher-up accounts should know not to cheat, and if they use any of their power to do so, should not be mods anymore. The issues with ignore lists shouldn't be a problem here since putting users on ignore in TWG isn't necessary to do to play the game, and actually hurts how you play (poor player appearance, blocking off interaction with said person you ignored and thus less information to use in the game)

Obviously the decision is up to the community and I won't die no matter what outcome happens, but I would like to speak up against these points while they're up in the air

I think maybe my perspective is a bit different here, I'm making my comments from a game design mindset, and I see two huge deficiencies in the format of the game on this site --- specifically, that there are two forum features which lie counter to the spirit of forum TWG

I have no reason to suspect that mods, for example, would abuse their powers in the game in an intentional way. I trust them to not consciously take actions that abuse the imbalance of power between them and the regular users. However, very simply, mods can view "invisible" players and regular users cannot. This is a feature which facilitates an unintentional (from a game design standpoint) asymmetry of information and thus interferes with the spirit of TWG

TL;DR being a mod automatically gives you an information advantage and that's not an intentional game feature so it should be addressed.

Regarding the "view post" feature ---

I really hate this, but realistically speaking I think the burden is on the wolves here not to "view post" while logged in. It might just be the easiest to browse the QuickTopic in an Incognito window, and then any links opened through that will be viewed anonymously (I think)

[AragakiAyase]

10 pm server is good

people should exercise caution

mods should be on alt accounts

no need to change replacement times imo

didn't read any of the above posts

[inDheart]

i think the "forward" and "backward" wording is confusing people on question 1 though

[storn42]

1) Should phase ends be moved forwards, backwards, or not at all

i have no problem with the midnight time being standard, but if anything it should be moved earlier an hour or two. On the east coast midnight means we're up till 1:00 AM. After waiting for the flip, it could be anywhere from 1:05-1:20. In wolf chat we need to talk at a time when we are all there, which tends to be after the flip, and we can talk for 1-1.5 hours. in reality we may be up will almost 3:00 AM


2) What do we do about the ability for players to view specific posts (aka the thing that Charu broke TWG with a few games ago)

I didn't know this was a thing. But, in reality its no different than when people's names pop up saying they're in the forum thread. Its not that hard to log out when you can just open up a "private tab" like you can in firefox and chrome.


3) Should FFR moderators and higher status FFR accounts be required to play TWG on alternate accounts

I have no problem with our mods playing on their normal accounts. I personally dont see any game breaking thing that they get over us, and i trust them not to use what they already have over us. idk if it should be something that is required, but definitely something that is encouraged


4) Should a mod be able to replace players only during specific phase times

I actually like this idea. while im not sure if it should be a hard rule, im just thinking of what it can do as a positive impactor on TWG. I'm imagining a world where we have this time where replacing out is encouraged. lets says its from noon to 6. This puts us in a place where anybody who is a replacement knows they should be "active" around that time in case the mod needs to replace them. In this case people who need to replace outside that time can be encouraged to play out the rest of the phase or until they get a replacement or something, and if they cant, there is an extremely light punishment like they have to sign up as a replacement before playing their next game or something.

I recognize that this idea has a bunch of issues with it, and its very much a dream scenario where nothing goes wrong. I'm still perfectly fine with replacements staying as they are.


5) Should the rule forbidding players from playing in more than one FFRTWG game at a time be abolished

I feel like this encourages multiple games to be going on at once, and with our tiny player group, im not sure thats a good idea. and i dont like reads of "bob is playing like this in game A, and like this in game B. Bob died in game A and flipped this, so he must be this is game B" If anything this is something that should be left to the host to determine on a case by case scenario.

[the sun fan]

firstly, I want to thank people for their incredibly in depth reasoning behind their answers, this has made me happy.

secondly, I wanted to mention that there is a fourth "difference" between moderator and non-moderator accounts, and that this occurred last game, albeit it is not readily apparent.

Moderator accounts are allowed to post in locked threads, and Manti (accidentally I'm sure) posted at 12:01 after I had locked the thread in the previous game.

If anything, this is a hindrance, and it might get a moderator account modkilled when they didn't actually do anything against the spirit of the game.

Either way, it is another reason, I think, for mods playing on alts in TWG.

[XelNya]

I'm lazy. Bolded is me.

Originally Posted by the sun fan

Firstly, I haven't talked to very many people about this but the few that I have all seem to be in favor of moving day phase ends forward a few hours. Midnight is just a little bit late for most people, and almost everyone should be active from 7PM server onwards or so. This one is kind of hard to fit into a poll, so if people could talk about when they think phase ends should be moved, if at all, that would be good, but I'll try to include a good option.

Something along this line would be pretty beneficial for someone like me,
because work is ass. I'd love it if phases ended around 8pm / 9pm server personally.

Secondly, inDheart figured out that its still possible to view what post(s) a player is viewing in the TWG forum, even though this should not be possible. Talked to Velocity about a potential fix, and it sounds like there is not one. Now, this really, really sucks. Logging out in order to view specific posts is super aids, and absolutely placed an undue burden on the playerbase, more specifically the wolves.
There are two potential fixes for this, I think. The first one is moving FFRTWG to some other domain where this is not possible. I think this is kind of ridiculous, but it is an option.
The second one is telling players that they need to exercise caution when viewing specific posts or post links, and should probably log out when doing so. This especially sucks for mobile users, but because the first option is super terrible, I think its what has to happen. Input on this issue is absolutely necessary in my mind, and if people have better ideas than the ones I have, which is usually the case, I would love to hear them.

There's really not a fix and just I'd suggest making it a rule to not look into this, and getting caught doing so results in a cheating ban.

Thirdly, and this is slightly coupled with the last issue, but FFR moderator (and any higher status such as admin) accounts absolutely provide player advantage to anyone with such a status. The known advantages include:

1) the ability to see invisible users on the "Currently Viewing" bar on the bottom of each page
2) the inability to be put on the ignore list of another FFR account
3) the ability to see IP addresses (this is more useful in certain situations than others).

and there are almost certainly more unknown advantages lurking in the depths of vBulletin. As should be obvious, I have migrated to another account, but this was my own personal choice. I think that the advantages provided are potentially too much to go unaddressed at this point, however.

You really shouldn't be allowed to play on hidden anyways. I'm fine with a player trying to slank getting caught not being in slank, but catching scum team due to info sharing is a little broken by comparison.

The invisible users thing is kind of unimportant, but it is technically an advantage as it provides moderators with information that other players do not have access to.

the inability to be put on ignore lists is the reason why I made and play on this account, and I think if it were the only thing, this would still be reason enough to address this issue. Its just plain not fair to be unable to put a moderator on ignore if you want to.

The last thing is at best a fringe case, but in specific situations, is potentially game-breaking.

As such, I propose that all players with moderator status or above play on TWG-specific alts from all games that begin from the end of the ongoing turbo (Turbo XIV) onward. I trust all of our mods not to cheat, and to be honest, only the IP address thing is game-breakingly unbalanced, and again only in certain situations. However, the point on the ignore list is something that cannot be helped otherwise.

This has turned out to be a longer point than I meant for it to be, so I'll wrap this up. I have proposed that all moderators (and higher status accounts) that wish to play in TWG play on alternate accounts in the future. I would like to hear input on this, but I really see no other way around this.

This just keeps a cleaner playing field, not that, most, would break the rules but better toi not tempt the poor mods.

Fourth, two small issues regarding replacements

a) Should there be a set time slot in which players can be replaced out of games?

Should be before halfway through the current day phase. Night phase is always 100% fine. This stops players from altering lynches because "they wanna give the player a chance." However, maybe make it so the replacement waits till the end of day, but announce it's happening?

I dunno. I hate seeing a train die just because the player replaced out.

b) Players talking about replacing out of their own slot will, from now on, be modkilled without exception.

100% yes.

The first point came up when the wolves in the previous TWG game protested Tokzic being replaced out so late in a day phase. I completely understand that this sub messed with plans, but I think that this is something that just cannot be helped. Subs are a kind of necessary evil in my mind, and these situations just have to happen so long as subbing is a thing that we are going to do on FFR, but I completely understand the complaint here. It is my belief that game moderators are not really allowed to think about what impact the sub may or may not have on the plans of players in a the game, for the sake of fairness. As such, I don't think that any adjustment here is needed. Would like to hear input here, because I wouldn't actually be that surprised to see myself in the minority.

Shit happens, and that really sucks, but I think making the changes you're purposing here are for the better.

Lastly, I would like to hear input regarding abolishing the rule forbidding TWG players to participate in more than one game at once on FFR. No real lead into this discussion other than this stands out to me as a potentially outdated rule, and I think it is pretty easy to participate in more than one game at once so long as phase beginning and ends are staggered.

I'm down with modifying this to be more along the lines of "you can join two games at a time, but not twice in a row unless needed to fill the game to get it rolling." or something to that nature, or their slot can be taken by a player who wasn't in the previous two games. This way players can't hog slots, not that I think anyone here actually would.

..

[the sun fan]

I am pretty against punishing players for utilizing a forum feature, because using something that is built into the medium that we play isn't really cheating, I think

[j-rodd123]

Personally I'd play more here if the phases ended earlier. 12am server is 1 am EST and for people who have to be up in the morning it's just not worth it. The norm on 2p2 is usually 9 EST for big games which I love, and I would be fine with 10 pm EST too, anything later is getting a bit ridiculous tbh for people who have consistent schedules. Not like we have euros playing to consider either so I really don't get why the phases end so late

[mellonxcollie]

because we night crawlers jrodd

[j-rodd123]

Yea true and I am on weekends. But it's not like people will be sleeping a few hours earlier but awake for EOD because they're night crawlers, while the reverse is often true

[blindreper1179]

Originally Posted by inDheart

i think the "forward" and "backward" wording is confusing people on question 1 though

Yes. I didn't know which way was which so I didn't vote.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

I am pretty against punishing players for utilizing a forum feature, because using something that is built into the medium that we play isn't really cheating, I think

Id really just gave to say it goes against the spirit of the game

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by blindreper1179

Yes. I didn't know which way was which so I didn't vote.

oops

[TWGma]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

3) Should FFR moderators and higher status FFR accounts be required to play TWG on alternate accounts

Thanks for reminding me to do this. Obviously, my answer is yes.

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by TWGma

Thanks for reminding me to do this. Obviously, my answer is yes.

hi new phone who dis

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Xiz

hi new phone who dis

actually lol'd

[lurker]

hey guys
it's me

1. voted for times to stay the same because the current "usual" night time is good enough for me and i'm not going to try to predict the geographic locations of everyone who will ever play
2. voted for migration because ffr sucks. if you have "ditch ffr" as an option and don't choose it you also suck
3. voted for mods to play on alts because i'm a bit paranoid, though perhaps this isn't as necessary as i think since iirc someone has proposed banning the ignore feature while i personally question whether the use of invis actually adds to the game (despite using it myself)
4. no change for replacement times because the default should be "asap" where possible. if you can't handle someone subbing into a game you're bad
5. keep the rule because removing it would basically invite people who are good at the game to crowd out any and all potential newcomers