09-26-2009, 11:36 PM | #21 |
Retired Staff
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 475
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Re: WTF Replay.
Replays, fixable? Of course. Will it ever be implemented? Probably not, seeing as how replays are a valuable resource when tracking down cheaters / botters, you can tell by the avmisses, etc. So uploading the fix would only allow more cheaters to get away with cheating, like flukerun over there.
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09-27-2009, 12:01 AM | #22 | |
The FFRchiver
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
Age: 30
Posts: 2,168
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Re: WTF Replay.
Quote:
There have actually been cases, where replays play BETTER than the persons stats carried out in the song. I seen this in the case of Mr. Rubix with the song "Vertex beta vROFL" when his final score in the replay, was about 1.8 million, but his best score recorded on FFR, was only about 1.4 million, which makes no sense at all really. I can modify any one of my replays to be any score I wanted to if I wanted to spend the time doing it, but I am really just trying to see what the problem with the replays are. Here is another replay mod I did to my own replay of "Horizon Remix" from a few months back when I thought the FC I got was amazing, but the replay decided NOT to give me the FC, and made me miss notes 92-93. I fixed the problem and now the replay gives me the FC (with an additional "BOO", but whatever). Substitute it in the server and see for yourself! PHP Code:
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09-27-2009, 12:06 AM | #23 | |
The FFRchiver
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Re: WTF Replay.
Quote:
It might not be MANDATORY, but it is defiantly something that should be looked into. Why have a feature that doesn't work properly when it could be fixed with most likely only a few weeks of effort?
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09-27-2009, 12:11 AM | #24 |
I am leonid
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MOUNTAIN VIEW
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Posts: 8,080
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Re: WTF Replay.
@NSane: How about providing both avmiss replays and fixed replays next to each other?
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09-27-2009, 12:29 AM | #25 | |
stepmania archaeologist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Age: 34
Posts: 4,090
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Re: WTF Replay.
Quote:
foxfire667: According to what I've seen and figured out, the avmiss glitch was not caused by any of the things you proposed; instead it was an error in the way keypresses were matched against arrows. Each arrow has a 7-frame window in which it can be hit (average, good, perfect, perfect, perfect, good, good). In the old version, if you pressed a key while in the window for two different arrows, it would hit the LATER arrow, and then the game would think that you had progressed past the earlier arrow and not allow it to be hit anymore. Hence the average miss - the result was often that, when trying to PA the first arrow in a minijack, the second arrow would be hit at the very beginning of its window (thus getting an average) and the first arrow would become unhittable and generate a miss. (If you pressed the button both times, in an attempt to hit both notes, you'd rack up a boo as well.) However, in the new version, pressing a key while in the window of two arrows will hit the first one, leaving the second one to be hit by your next keypress. So when arrows were too close together, it used to be difficult (or impossible, if the notes were two or fewer frames apart) to PA the first arrow, but now every song that doesn't have more than one note per frame per arrow can theoretically be AAA'd. About detecting cheating by watching replays: many bots will hit each note in the same perfect frame of the window (such as the one perfect frame when the note is just on top of the receptor) and you can often detect this by watching the avmisses in the replay. If the bot hits all the notes late, for instance, the replay will get an avmiss in pretty much every place it possibly can. I believe -FlukeRun- was an example of this.
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09-27-2009, 08:37 AM | #26 |
FFR Player
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Re: WTF Replay.
I do think that replays need to actually REPLAY what was played -- it does need fixing. However, avmisses provide valuable information, and so the current engine needs to still be intact. Perhaps some sort of option switch or whatever.
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09-27-2009, 08:38 AM | #27 | |
Very Grave Indeed
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Re: WTF Replay.
Quote:
For a given note, there's a set of frames around it. Hitting the note in a given frame will give you a given accuracy measurement. Code:
good perfect <----this is where the arrow is perfectly in the receptor perfect perfect good average CLEAR Code:
good perfect perfect <---Arrow 1 perfect good average CLEAR <---Arrow 2 Code:
good perfect <---Arrow 1 perfect perfect good average <---Arrow 2 CLEAR This is what an AVMISS is. A later version of the game engine was programmed to look the opposite way. When you pressed an input, it would look for the arrow that was furthest -up- that hadn't been played yet in the input area, instead of the furthest down, so that you could actually hit each arrow in a framer and have it register properly. The replay engine is still the outmoded version that isn't looking the right way to not avmiss, so since the replays again are actually re-playing the song from scratch using your inputs and timestamps from the gameplay, you are getting proper PA when you play the game, and the replay is avmissing. Last edited by devonin; 09-27-2009 at 08:43 AM.. |
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09-27-2009, 09:12 AM | #28 | |
The FFRchiver
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Age: 30
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Re: WTF Replay.
Quote:
So basically, if two or more arrows are within the same frame range, the game would overlook the higher arrow, and take the lower one instead. This poses another question though, if all the coding needed to fix the replays is a simple inversion on whether it goes after the highest arrow, or the lowest arrow, why hasn't it been at least attempted to be fixed yet? Also, I have a solution to that problem, considering that it would be true botters' replays usually have such results, and sense moderators / administrators are the ones that ban botters and what not, couldn't they make an option to retain the OLD replay module for reviewing a possible botter, but use the new replay module for everyone else just looking at the replays? I'm saying this because: 1) It gives us the updated replays, but gives you the option to review replays in the old version if necessary. 2) I would assume most people that bot, understand that there replays could expose them, and they could most likely play a series of easier songs to make their botted replay be removed from the face of their profile. Anyway, sense now I know what the problem is, maybe if I replace some code from the ffr updated SWF, into the replay player as far as hitting arrows go, I might be able to get some results. Wish me luck, I'm on a mission!
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09-27-2009, 09:43 AM | #29 |
Very Grave Indeed
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Re: WTF Replay.
As I understand it, the game engine version that replays run on isn't "The game version, but unupdated" it is "The version that all the widgets run on"
If you aren't familiar with widgets, it was another project of the company wherein bands with a myspace page and a sufficient number of fans/friends could get a widget made for their myspace profile. The widget was a stripped down, simplified version of the game engine, that had two or three difficulty versions of 2 or 3 of the band's songs, and could be accessed both on their myspace page, and on the FFR site. The band got exposure on FFR, and FFR got exposure on Myspace. I think the reason why the replay engine has never been updated is that it would also require updating the widget engine, since they are the same engine, and that might or might not require all bands with a widget to update, or otherwise modify the version running on their myspace, or else would require creating a new copy of the replay engine with the new avmiss fixing modifications and divorcing it from the widget engine entirely (None of the widget songs except for what, blooddrunk? Are even -remotely- difficult or in need of an avmiss fixing version of the engine) and that would need just enough work, and just enough access to the company servers, that the shortlist of people who -can- do it, matches up with the shortlist of people who -aren't- actually doing anything on the website anymore. Simple asnwer: Yes, fixing it is possible, Yes fixing it probably woudln't even be that difficult or time consuming, but there had been priorities all along that were higher than fixing replays (Which was, at the time of the avmiss fix not an especially old feature anyway, so it wasn't like they'd been labouring under avmissed replays for years and desperately wanted out) and by the time "fixing replays" would have been near the top of the list, the company didn't have any active coders anymore. |
09-27-2009, 09:50 AM | #30 |
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Re: WTF Replay.
Funny thing was, the avmiss fix was almost not implemented. At the time, the admins were debating whether or not it was worth fixing the avmisses or if that time was better spent moving forward into Third Style.
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09-27-2009, 10:15 AM | #31 |
The FFRchiver
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Re: WTF Replay.
Well I guess that would be trouble updating the replay player, if that also meant the band widgets and everything else would have to be updated, it would make sense why they wouldn't want to update it if it were all on the same database.
Although, couldn't they just update the replay player, and separate it from the widgets? I mean, they could still keep the old replay player in the database if that meant the widgets wouldn't work without it, but they could stop connection flow to the old replay player, and forward it to the updated one, couldn't they? Either way, I'm going to see what I can do...and if I get a breakthrough with updating the replay player MY way, I'll release the replay mod for people to download if they want to see their replays, the way they are supposed to be seen. I've modded a few things on FFR already, like the songs, and making the token trigger appear whenever I complete a song and for it to say whatever I want it to say, and all of that was only substitution and editing of code, so this cannot be that much different if I have both versions can it? It might take a while, but if I DO get it done, a few weeks is defiantly better than never, I'm sure everyone would agree. I feel it is time that coders start to take some steps around here, sense it doesn't seem like anything is going to get done, unless we do. I wonder if I can get any volunteers to help me try to fix this replay problem once and for all. Even if we cannot fix it...at least we can say we tried.
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09-27-2009, 10:21 AM | #32 |
FFR Veteran
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Re: WTF Replay.
Wtf is the problem with widgets? Just make the replay page load a fixed swf.
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09-27-2009, 10:28 AM | #33 |
Very Grave Indeed
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Re: WTF Replay.
More funny was that a lot of the top tier of players also didn't want avmisses fixed, because they knew that as soon as they were, FFR would get inundated in dumps full of jacks and hands and all the things you -couldn't- do because of avmisses. Lo and behold.
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09-27-2009, 03:43 PM | #34 |
FFR Player
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Re: WTF Replay.
I actually really welcomed the avmiss fix because avmisses were GLITCHES. Songs were being judged based on difficulty resulting from GLITCHED METRICS. A rhythm game (which, by definition, should favor accurate timing) that punishes you for being accurate is a little ridiculous. It was like gaining skill through mastery of UNskill. It needed to be fixed. Too many people were bitching over stupid things.
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09-27-2009, 03:55 PM | #35 |
Very Grave Indeed
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Re: WTF Replay.
But unskill -is- a skill, look at all the anti-skill-tokens.
Consider how many more AAA's appeared on framer-heavy songs directly following the avmiss fix, and then tell me which version took more actual skill to do well on :P |
09-27-2009, 10:52 PM | #36 | |
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Re: WTF Replay.
Quote:
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09-27-2009, 11:28 PM | #37 |
★★★★★
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Re: WTF Replay.
The only issue of avmiss fix was giving mashers even more advantages due to FFR's combo based scoring system and not having combo breakers other than misses.
I think availability of jacks is highly acceptable in FFR simfile world. btw avmiss s-token is utterly outdated and doesn't make sense at all now, even though it's meant to be an anti skill token, it only lives in widgets and replays now. |
09-27-2009, 11:43 PM | #38 | ||
TWG Overlord
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Re: WTF Replay.
Quote:
The token doesn't actually need to be recoded, jut needs to be reworded.
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09-29-2009, 08:48 PM | #39 |
FFR Player
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Re: WTF Replay.
Now all we need is for an Admin to read this and go: "WTF our people could fix this."
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09-29-2009, 08:53 PM | #40 |
FFR Player
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Re: WTF Replay.
I'm not denying that it took MORE skill to do well on the avmiss version. I'm saying it's gauging the WRONG kind of skill. It's a rhythm game. Rhythm games typically favor accuracy. A rhythm game that favors inaccuracy is like favoring an archer who never hits anything near the bullseye or something.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0es0Mip1jWY Last edited by MrRubix; 09-29-2009 at 08:56 PM.. |
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