Current State of TWG Poll

[the sun fan]

Several things regarding how certain things are being done, below is a little bit on each one of the things that I think should be talked about.

Firstly, I haven't talked to very many people about this but the few that I have all seem to be in favor of moving day phase ends forward a few hours. Midnight is just a little bit late for most people, and almost everyone should be active from 7PM server onwards or so. This one is kind of hard to fit into a poll, so if people could talk about when they think phase ends should be moved, if at all, that would be good, but I'll try to include a good option.

Secondly, inDheart figured out that its still possible to view what post(s) a player is viewing in the TWG forum, even though this should not be possible. Talked to Velocity about a potential fix, and it sounds like there is not one. Now, this really, really sucks. Logging out in order to view specific posts is super aids, and absolutely placed an undue burden on the playerbase, more specifically the wolves.
There are two potential fixes for this, I think. The first one is moving FFRTWG to some other domain where this is not possible. I think this is kind of ridiculous, but it is an option.
The second one is telling players that they need to exercise caution when viewing specific posts or post links, and should probably log out when doing so. This especially sucks for mobile users, but because the first option is super terrible, I think its what has to happen. Input on this issue is absolutely necessary in my mind, and if people have better ideas than the ones I have, which is usually the case, I would love to hear them.

Thirdly, and this is slightly coupled with the last issue, but FFR moderator (and any higher status such as admin) accounts absolutely provide player advantage to anyone with such a status. The known advantages include:

1) the ability to see invisible users on the "Currently Viewing" bar on the bottom of each page
2) the inability to be put on the ignore list of another FFR account
3) the ability to see IP addresses (this is more useful in certain situations than others).

and there are almost certainly more unknown advantages lurking in the depths of vBulletin. As should be obvious, I have migrated to another account, but this was my own personal choice. I think that the advantages provided are potentially too much to go unaddressed at this point, however.

The invisible users thing is kind of unimportant, but it is technically an advantage as it provides moderators with information that other players do not have access to.

the inability to be put on ignore lists is the reason why I made and play on this account, and I think if it were the only thing, this would still be reason enough to address this issue. Its just plain not fair to be unable to put a moderator on ignore if you want to.

The last thing is at best a fringe case, but in specific situations, is potentially game-breaking.

As such, I propose that all players with moderator status or above play on TWG-specific alts from all games that begin from the end of the ongoing turbo (Turbo XIV) onward. I trust all of our mods not to cheat, and to be honest, only the IP address thing is game-breakingly unbalanced, and again only in certain situations. However, the point on the ignore list is something that cannot be helped otherwise.

This has turned out to be a longer point than I meant for it to be, so I'll wrap this up. I have proposed that all moderators (and higher status accounts) that wish to play in TWG play on alternate accounts in the future. I would like to hear input on this, but I really see no other way around this.

Fourth, two small issues regarding replacements

a) Should there be a set time slot in which players can be replaced out of games?
b) Players talking about replacing out of their own slot will, from now on, be modkilled without exception.

The first point came up when the wolves in the previous TWG game protested Tokzic being replaced out so late in a day phase. I completely understand that this sub messed with plans, but I think that this is something that just cannot be helped. Subs are a kind of necessary evil in my mind, and these situations just have to happen so long as subbing is a thing that we are going to do on FFR, but I completely understand the complaint here. It is my belief that game moderators are not really allowed to think about what impact the sub may or may not have on the plans of players in a the game, for the sake of fairness. As such, I don't think that any adjustment here is needed. Would like to hear input here, because I wouldn't actually be that surprised to see myself in the minority.

The second point is something that I am going to remind players of in future games, as it is something that players have done for a while and it has gone completely unpunished. Talking about replacing out with anyone other than the mod privately has an inherently negative impact on the game, especially when timing and such comes into play. This is something that cannot go without punishment any longer. I will post this before the beginning of each game for a few games, just to remind people.

Lastly, I would like to hear input regarding abolishing the rule forbidding TWG players to participate in more than one game at once on FFR. No real lead into this discussion other than this stands out to me as a potentially outdated rule, and I think it is pretty easy to participate in more than one game at once so long as phase beginning and ends are staggered.

tl;dr beneath this post

[Dinglesberry]

loool shit it shows who voted for what xD

[the sun fan]

tl;dr

1) Should phase ends be moved forwards, backwards, or not at all

2) What do we do about the ability for players to view specific posts (aka the thing that Charu broke TWG with a few games ago)

3) Should FFR moderators and higher status FFR accounts be required to play TWG on alternate accounts

4) Should a mod be able to replace players only during specific phase times

5) Should the rule forbidding players from playing in more than one FFRTWG game at a time be abolished

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by Dinglesberry

loool shit it shows who voted for what xD

only counting votes for people who have played TWG on FFR before, sorry bub

[ShadoWolfe]

It's understandable that midnight server is too late for EST players, but 7pm server is way too early for those of us on the Pacific (5pm). This has generally been left up to the mod, but I think 10pm server is the perfect compromise (8m pst, 11pm est) to allow all of us at least an hour or two to get home and post before EoD.

[DaBackpack]

I've long advocated for the Moderators getting alts thing -- I don't think that mods would maliciously abuse the system, but it's still a mechanical advantage over regular users and should be addressed asap.

I'm really bummed to hear that the "viewing xxx post" thing can't be resolved. If we wanted to be really rigorous we would move to another forum format, but I don't think this is generally a good idea because we will almost guaranteed lose people in the translation to a new forum. (In this case I am willing to compromise rigor for higher participation)

Lastly, I think there need to be rules for player replacement. Ideally, there should be maximum transparency between the players of the game and the rules of the game. (i.e. the players of either alignment should not be forced to "guess" when/if a player will be replaced in the game). In particular, currently the timing of replacements is fairly arbitrary, which makes it extremely difficult for wolves to plan for future phases, especially given the meta on FFRTWG of "replacements are off the table for the phase they replace in". If the wolves can turn to a list of rules for replacements, such as "players will be replaced after xxx hours of not posting without informing the mod", this increases the transparency of the game mechanics for all players, since they don't have to wrangle with this kind of uncertainty.

I agree that players talking about replacing out should be punished/modkilled. This kind of talk introduces a really unpleasant dimension to the game and provides almost no real benefit.

I have no opinion about phase times.

[Wayward Vagabond]

10pm would actually be terrific

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by Wayward Vagabond

10pm would actually be terrific

what time zone?

[Wayward Vagabond]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

what time zone?

Server time. 8pm pst

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

tl;dr

1) Should phase ends be moved forwards, backwards, or not at all

2) What do we do about the ability for players to view specific posts (aka the thing that Charu broke TWG with a few games ago)

3) Should FFR moderators and higher status FFR accounts be required to play TWG on alternate accounts

4) Should a mod be able to replace players only during specific phase times

5) Should the rule forbidding players from playing in more than one FFRTWG game at a time be abolished

1) Ideally no later then 9-10pm eastern.
2) If we move, MU is the best and safest place. A bunch are already on there already, and the move wouldn't be that catastrophic. It also fixes a few other problems, but in return we loose our community name, which im neutral on. EDIT: actually nah the culture of ffr is something id prefer not loosing.
3) Yes.
4) When there is a replacement in the last hour or two, it forces an angleshoot. But there really is no right way around it. Imo
5) keep it.

[Xiz]

The twg penalty thread should come back imo, when i stopped playing for a year it died and im sad. I can start it back up if you want, but once i start school again someone else will need to tackle that.

[blindreper1179]

10/11pm forum time would be great.
Mod kill the cry babies
Idc about the advantages, if you have to use them, you're bad whatever.

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by Xiz

1) Ideally no later then 9-10pm eastern.
2) If we move, MU is the best and safest place. A bunch are already on there already, and the move wouldn't be that catastrophic. It also fixes a few other problems, but in return we loose our community name, which im neutral on. EDIT: actually nah the culture of ffr is something id prefer not loosing.
3) Yes.
4) When there is a replacement in the last hour or two, it forces an angleshoot. But there really is no right way around it. Imo
5) keep it.

hey that's cool maybe you should vote though

(I agree with those btw other than maybe #1)

[Xiz]

done

[blindreper1179]

Be in 2 games idc, but that should be player to player imo. I can barely keep up with 1, some may be able to handle 2 our 3.

[inDheart]

voted for:

1) Move Phase Ends Forward
1) Keep Phase Ends Mostly at Midnight Server (yeah both, shoot me)
2) Players exercise caution when viewing specific posts (log out when viewing specific posts )
3) Require all FFR moderators and higher status accounts to play on alts in TWG
4) No change necessary regarding replacement times
abolish the rule preventing players from participating in, at most, one FFRTWG game at a time

i personally prefer later phase ends and it's why i bother to host turbos with 1am deadlines my time, but anything after like 6pm server is more than fine

staying on FFR is what makes us FFRTWG. i've been thinking about just closing my profile here because i don't actually use the thing. i discovered this was still possible in the fire emblem game btw and reported it to sunfan

mods should play on alts to negate mod advantages - the reason we can get around that at MU is because the tech has a "Playing a Game" setting that disables things like viewing online users and other private threads, locking/unlocking threads, etc

don't care about when replacements happen; you can't expect the replacement to be able to vouch for the person they replaced but you can still try to read them

also don't care either way about the one-game rule since in most cases we only run one game at a time anyway and if i wanna play another one i just look off-site, but voted abolish to just give people the option

[Gradiant]

1) Nothing wrong with phases being mostly normalized to midnight server

2) Personally don't see anything wrong with the viewing specific posts feature. This has been a thing for quite a while now, and as far back as when I first started playing games here every time I've rolled wolf I've been sure to make sure I'm not logged in if going through the thread during a night phase. Doing so is really easy to do and doesn't ruin the game.

3) Not necessary. Mods and higher-up accounts should know not to cheat, and if they use any of their power to do so, should not be mods anymore. The issues with ignore lists shouldn't be a problem here since putting users on ignore in TWG isn't necessary to do to play the game, and actually hurts how you play (poor player appearance, blocking off interaction with said person you ignored and thus less information to use in the game)

4) imo, the problem is less when during a phase the person is replaced, but rather nobody knowing if they'll be replaced at all in a game

5) Keep it. If a player feels like they're active enough to post a bit in multiple games, there's no reason they can't use that activity to actually play more in the original game they signed up for. Especially since activity is a huge problem on FFR TWG nowadays

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by Xiz

The twg penalty thread should come back imo, when i stopped playing for a year it died and im sad. I can start it back up if you want, but once i start school again someone else will need to tackle that.

I'd handle it myself since its just easier to have a mod do it, I think.
This is probably a good idea in theory, I'm on the fence about it in practice though.

[inDheart]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

I'd handle it myself since its just easier to have a mod do it, I think.
This is probably a good idea in theory, I'm on the fence about it in practice though.

but what is going to tell me that i'm not allowed to let rzr into a game?

oughta be somewhere, at least

[Soundwave-]

Phase times I'm pretty neutral on, just because as long as they're not in the middle of the day I'll deal, and also there's a non-zero chance that entire evenings will be blocked out for me anyways so the time is of no concern for the wrong reasons. That being said it's even a little bit awkward now to have most of my free time be eaten up by the night phase, but obviously end of phase play is important and needs to be preserved so... whatever.

I don't think anything needs to be done about exploits. I think the vast majority of players have an innate concern for the integrity of the game. Anybody who doesn't can be punished accordingly, I don't think we need to hold hands in this regard.

Same feeling with mods, although the solution here is significantly more reasonable, so either way.

I think mods judgement on how to best handle replacements is acceptable.

Voted abolish on the rule, but I'm somewhat on the fence. I think in theory people should be able to handle multiple games simultaneously just fine, whereas in practice I know issues can and probably will arise.