Immigration

[Xiz]

I would like to know your current thoughts on immigration policy within the United States. I am the director of a documentary, and might feature some of your questions / concerns within the documentary, or explore some of your ideas to help enhance the film. I am looking for multiple perspectives, that range from extremely conservative to extremely liberal, and absolutely everything in-between.
Please respect others opinions, and intellectually challenge their beliefs if you disagree instead of immaturely bashing them.
If you state an opinion, please explain why instead of just saying one sentence. Depending on how this thread progresses (if at all) and if your threads have the potential for enhancing this documentary, I will be sure to feature you as a 'thanks' at the end of the film within the credits somewhere. (I'll discuss this more later) If you do not feel comfortable with sharing your opinions publicly, feel free to send me a private message about this situation, and I will (if you are okay with it) post your opinions anonymously in this thread.



If you don't know where to begin, consider some of the following questions:



1) Your thoughts on immigrants as a whole
2) Your thoughts on language such as "illegal immigrants" now being considered like the F-word or N-word. (Example article describe current event below)
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/04/us/ill...l-a-challenge/
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/04/03/...ration-reform/
3) How do you see immigrants impacting the United States?
4) If NOT in the United States, what are your opinions on America's current plan of action?
5) Do you think immigrants are good for the economy?
6) Why do immigrants even immigrate to the United States?
Bonus: 7) Debate with others who have posted in the thread. I'd like to hear some debate going on


Thank you everyone. I know this is quite controversial, however I believe this thread could really progress.

[dragonmegaXX]

1) Your thoughts on immigrants as a whole
I used to the thought of so many immigrants living in my area(Mexicans) but lately I realize that most of them arent that bad, and a lot of them are actually really hard workers. Most Mexicans I see have a fair amount of money from the jobs they do, and if they're illegal they probably make up for lost taxes with all the sales tax on the beer they buy.

2) Your thoughts on language such as "illegal immigrants" now being considered like the F-word or N-word. (Example article describe current event below)

I was unaware of this, but it's stupid as hell. If you're an illegal immigrant, you're an illegal immigrant. We arent insulting your country of origin, we're insulting your ethics of thinking you're a citizen just because oyu can run accross the border without being caught,

3) How do you see immigrants impacting the United States?

Good question. I think the entire answer will be based on what kind of laws are passed about immigration in the next couple decades.

4) If NOT in the United States, what are your opinions on America's current plan of action?

I'm in the US.

5) Do you think immigrants are good for the economy?
I mean hey, they make their money and they spend it on stuff, circulating more money in the economy overall, so why not.

6) Why do immigrants even immigrate to the United States?
Because a lot of countries are politically unstable, a lot less safe for families, and the you can make a lot more money in the US than you can in some other countries.

[bmah]

1) Your thoughts on immigrants as a whole
They're an incredibly large source of labor in Canadian and American economies, especially today. They're essential to our economies.
Right after the second world war, soldiers came back home and started families, with their wives often giving birth to a large number of children. These children were the baby boomers. A changing society eventually led to a sharp decrease in birth rates, and that has led to a shortage of workers when the baby boomers retire. This is especially true in Canada (idk how severe the issue is in the US). In any case, immigrants fill in this missing gap, and I predict in the near future will be the majority of labored workers in Canada and the US.

2) Your thoughts on language such as "illegal immigrants" now being considered like the F-word or N-word.
Screw political correctness. That's a petty issue compared to the actual problem of illegal immigrants, which is very real. Focus on the big issues, not small ones like these.

3) How do you see immigrants impacting the United States?
See my response for 1). They're a great asset to the economy in terms of the labor market. I'd also like to add though that they help diversify the nation and help distribute the flow of knowledge and innovation. In the not so distant past, most people in the US and Canada were only European immigrants; i.e. nearly all whites/Caucasians. They lived with the traditions they knew, and were very ignorant/unknowledgeable of the outside world. It's no different from any other society that closes itself to other societies. As we continue to gain immigrants from other places, it helps us better understand other cultures and build tolerance to their societies, as well as understand their problems too. And of course, they have interesting ideas and innovations to introduce.

4) If NOT in the United States, what are your opinions on America's current plan of action?
I'm not aware of what the US's current plan of action is. Could you elaborate on what that might be? I hope the country keeps itself open to immigrants, while maintaining consistency on their immigration laws - and that includes keeping out illegal immigrants. But it also means clarifying laws or negotiating certain laws for people who would genuinely want to contribute to the American society but currently have to rely on getting there illegally. I'm sure there are a lot of these sorts of people, but also a lot of people you have to weed out that just want to do illicit activities like drug trading.

5) Do you think immigrants are good for the economy?
See my responses for 1) and 3).

6) Why do immigrants even immigrate to the United States?
It could be out of seeking better opportunities, or by little choice (asylum), and sometimes a combination of those two. My grandparents immigrated to Canada and the US illegally right when Japan invaded China in the 1930-40s. It was either a matter of staying in hell, or moving out to a better country. They used fake documents to become Canadian and US citizens, for it was difficult for people like the Chinese to legitimately become citizens back then (a lot of that was due to ignorance and segregation - see 3) on distribution of knowledge and initial ignorances).
People wanting to immigrate to the US is no surprise since honestly it has been one of the most successful nations to this day that has consistently maintained a functioning democratic system.

[UserNameGoesHere]

1)
I think most immigrants just want better futures for their families and they are just trying to get by and make a living, just like anybody else. In fact, many of them are very hard working people.

2)
I think banning the phrase "illegal immigrants" is stupid, but I also think banning saying things such as "retarded" or "retard" is stupid. Just because something hurts someone's feelings doesn't mean it should be banned.

3)
I think immigrants contribute as much or more than other people. Probably more. Also I think people like to cast blame onto immigrants which rightly belongs cast upon corporations. They blame immigrants for taking their jobs when the immigrants are just trying to get by and feed their families too. If you want to blame anyone, blame the corporations. Or blame the government. Don't blame the workers.

4)
In the US.

5)
I think most immigrants are good for the economy, yes. There are of course always bad seeds but I think most of them just want to work hard, provide for their families, and live "The American Dream" which is sadly more of a fantasy than reality IMO.

6)
Immigrants come to the US because they perceive it as a land of golden opportunity or at least better than what they had. They may see it as a way out to a better life. Sadly, I think they are misled -- while they can certainly get by I don't think the US is any land of golden opportunity nor that it is feasible for most people to live the stereotypical "American Dream". I hope the immigration was worth it for them.


All of that said, yes, there are some bad people who immigrate to the US (Examples: Drug runners, violent criminals, etc...) but I think on the most part they're just normal people who want to live and provide for their families the best they can.

Maybe I'm just weird but I tend to like people from other countries better than people from this one a lot of the times.

[dore]

I'm not gonna use the bullet points, just gonna go stream of consciousness here.

When I think of the impact of illegal immigrants on the USA, I think of what the country would be like without them. They are a source of reliable labor that runs some of useful industries that makes it so everyone else can buy cheaper goods. Someone coming from a desperate enough situation to leave their home and attempt to start a new life without the blessing of the law is going to see any kind of gainful employment an improvement, so they are able to fill the gaps in the bottom of the job market, which helps the economy as a whole. The biggest problem they cause is that their lack of documentation means that they may avoid paying taxes which means they drain money from public services without paying into them like everyone else. That's a bad thing obviously, but to me, the solution is to make it easier to immigrate legally and become a citizen so that they can become taxpayers like everyone else. Trying to throw everyone out of the country just leaves holes where they used to be that someone else can come over and fill, and that doesn't present a long-term solution to the problem.

Immigrants always will be the easiest target for those seeking to place blame on the social issues of the day (this goes for any country), so I think a lot of the ire towards them stems more from that than their actual effects on the nation. It's easy to call them 'criminals' because they did break the law upon entering the country, but that doesn't mean they're going to go on a crime spree in America. Crazy natural-born citizens do crazy shit all the time, and that's viewed completely differently. Desperate people will do desperate things, so you have to find ways to get people out of those situations in the first place rather than just trying to kick everyone out.

Dunno how coherent that was cuz I'm half asleep but there you go. Also I clicked on the thread expecting it to be really bad, but I guess since it's not on page 2 yet we haven't gotten to that point.

[Cavernio]

Why are the laws on immigration, especially to the US, so strict in the first place?

[UserNameGoesHere]

I think the laws are strict because there is this general nationalist fear that if "we" let "them" "take over", "we" will lose power, "our culture", and may become second-class citizens.

"We/Us" -- the average stereotypical Americans

"Them" -- outsiders or foreigners to America

"Our culture" -- what makes "us" different from "them"

"Take over" -- immigration in large numbers

It's basically jingoism and xenophobia.

[Reincarnate]

I think many problems would be solved by simply overhauling the system and making it easier for immigrants to come here legally. There's really no good reason to be against this unless you're a bigot/racist/xenophobe or an unscrupulous employer who benefits from taking advantage of undocumented workers in order to keep costs low.

[Wayward Vagabond]

I was an illegal immigrant for the first 18 years of my life. I went to school here from kinder to high school. I speak English better than most citizens and have no criminal record. I got my residency cars when I turned 18 after my mom ended up paying a total of about 3000 dollars. I am not able to apply for citizenship until this August and it will be another 800 dollars to do so.

Yeah fuck the system

[Cavernio]

"an unscrupulous employer who benefits from taking advantage of undocumented workers in order to keep costs low."
I wouldn't be surprised if this is more of a factor than the general public knows. Business and money make the world go round.

As to 'them' taking jobs away from 'us'...I dunno...Silly scenario, what if something crazy like 50% of Mexicans decided they wanted to be American, and the US let them in?

A large shift in culture can change your way of life on nearly every level, social, economic, personal. If the purpose of a country isn't to maintain the status quo, I don't know why we have countries.

I'm not agreeing with strict immigration policy, but to be really loose with one does seem to defeat the purpose of having a country in the first place.

[Choofers]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Why are the laws on immigration, especially to the US, so strict in the first place?

Because "MUH FREEDOMS."

[Cavernio]

How's Mexico less free than the US?

[Choofers]

I was introducing a stereotype.

[Nyokou]

Mexico is more corrupt.

As for why the immigration system is broken... it's because the government gives out Visas by certain amounts every year and once they reach their quota for each country, that's it until the following year. No more Visas.

The problem with this is that they are trying to be 'diverse' instead of fair. For example, instead of giving more Visas to a country like Mexico or Philippines who have waiting lists of applicants from the 90s, they would rather give the Visas to people who applied later than them just because they are from different countries.

The supply does not meet the demand. They need to start giving out a lot more Visas per year to speed up the process or do it fairly by giving Visas 'first come, first serve' style so that people who applied as early as 1990 (going on 24 years now) can finally get their application considered.

Also, the one event that made this process even worse was 9/11. Because of 9/11, everything was put on hold and people's waiting time was lengthened. Even the ones who were just days away from getting called in to have their application reviewed and considered.

In my family's case, my parents applied in March 1997 and were expecting everything to be done in just several years. Then 9/11 happened. Our application got pushed back and my parents were then expected to wait until sometime in 2007. That never happened. It has now been 6 years since then and the waiting list for the F4 Visas is still only on October 8, 1996. It seems close, right? Well, the list only moves about 2 weeks per month. Meaning they still have to wait until late 2014 or even until 2015, or later.

So my family has basically had to wait nearly 20 yrs. And people still wonder why Mexicans would rather cross illegally? Especially now that the immigration system is further broken, I can't imagine how long a waiting period would be for people that don't have American relatives like we do.

Unfortunately it was too late for me, the oldest kid in the family. Once I turned 21, I was no longer eligible for permanent residency through my aunt. I will have to pay the same penalty as my parents for overstaying our temporary Visas which were only good for several years (the estimated time we were initially supposed to have waited for our application to be reviewed) but only if I adjust my status through other means. And the only option I have right now is marriage which is what my cousin did who was in the same situation and also my brother just a few months ago, since his 21st birthday is also coming up next March.

But I'm not really the type to depend on someone. Plus I don't have the money to get married. I'm holding out to see if there is some actual immigration reform that addresses people like me who grew up here and ended up getting screwed over just because our family's applications didn't go through fast enough and we turned 21. The DREAM thing isn't a solution to that, at all. It's just an excuse to delay deportation.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by Wayward Vagabond

I was an illegal immigrant for the first 18 years of my life. I went to school here from kinder to high school. I speak English better than most citizens and have no criminal record. I got my residency cars when I turned 18 after my mom ended up paying a total of about 3000 dollars. I am not able to apply for citizenship until this August and it will be another 800 dollars to do so.

Yeah fuck the system

Would you say that the reason most illegal immigrants don't work on becoming a citizen is because they can't afford it? I'm not sure why I wasn't aware it had such a fee.

[kommisar]

I love it when people say "immigrants are taking our jobs" when they're jobs you refuse to do anyways because you devalue a job at say Walmart. Those workers will always be needed but people from here just don't want to do them for obvious reasons.

It's unfortunate that many immigrants are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to good jobs but for them it's a godsend and are incredibly grateful to be paid minimum wage.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by kommisar

I love it when people say "immigrants are taking our jobs" when they're jobs you refuse to do anyways because you devalue a job at say Walmart. Those workers will always be needed but people from here just don't want to do them for obvious reasons.

It's unfortunate that many immigrants are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to good jobs but for them it's a godsend and are incredibly grateful to be paid minimum wage.

I always got the same feeling when I used to work at a restaurant. I'm practically grateful that they are willing to do this kind of work. It is kind of a catch 22 though. If there were drastically less strict immigration laws and they could freely become a citizen as other who were born here then they might not be willing to do that kind of work. It's like things need to be unfairly strict in order to keep the status quo or things will fall apart.

Eventually though the job market might even out and just be ridiculously more difficult and competitive. At that point congress would probably review minimum wage. Then standard prices would rise maybe and cause inflation. Yay.

[GuidoHunter]

1) Your thoughts on immigrants as a whole

I love immigrants and the cultures they bring. Pretty much all of us descended from immigrants, so it's silly to dislike them.

2) Your thoughts on language such as "illegal immigrants" now being considered like the F-word or N-word.

Absurd.

5) Do you think immigrants are good for the economy?

Immigrants in general? I guess a net positive, since they often come here to take advantage of the economic opportunities, but it's hard to distinguish them from citizens in this regard.

Illegal immigrants? Hard to say, since I don't keep detailed statistics on the economic activity of completely undocumented people. If I had to guess, I'd say a small net positive. They do a lot of work and spend money here, but they also avail themselves of benefits and send money outside the borders.

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

I think many problems would be solved by simply overhauling the system and making it easier for immigrants to come here legally.

A hundred times this. The process is ridiculously long and expensive I very much think that these factors are a barrier to legal immigration and, thus, a contributor to the illegal immigration problem.

I'm bemused as to why politicians aren't crawling all over each other to be the first to suggest making legal immigration easier. Sure, illegal immigration is a problem, and illegal immigrants need to be dealt with, but it seems that all the discussion is about how harshly they need to be dealt with and how they need to be prevented from entering.

I do not believe for an instant that illegal immigrants should have immediate access to citizenship. Legal residency is certainly on the table, but citizenship should only be available to them if they "get in line" and go through the legal process at the very least (and I personally believe they should, in some way, undo the steps that brought them here illegally by returning to their country of origin before coming back -- ideally they would begin the process in their home country after doing so, but I can appreciate the difficulty of doing that in some countries, so I wouldn't argue with starting the process here).

--Guido

[MixMasterLar]

Good bump

Really wanting to see how the doc worked out.

[Mrowmrew]

Honestly, I'm not necessarily on one side or the other. I think immigrants built this country and a lot of Americans overreact and like to point fingers at and blame anything but themselves for their problems. "Wah, they're taking our jobs." Well of course, they're unemployed human beings who turned in an application and happened to be employed. Get the fuck over it, it's not about race. It's about the number of people in this damn country and you can blame most of that on people's lack of use of condoms. At the same time a lot of immigrants come into the country and make it a point in their schedule to crap on everyone.
Basically, we could be a little more fair, but the assholes who come in here to wave their flag higher than ours and think they're big shit can stay where they came from.

About the economy, I really don't know much about economics, but I believe that a family (or 100) that moves in and works their asses off does a lot better for the economy than the thousands of lazy scumbags who lay back whining about their rights to be here.

Excuse my potty mouth.