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02-12-2014, 02:29 PM | #1 |
This ma coo coo face
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 33
Posts: 885
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You know, Ive been thinking...
Ive been thinking... Ive had/seen/heard multiple discussions with multiple people about science versus the belief of a higher being. One of the things I realized was that "some" of those people were a little trigger-happy with derogatory and uncalled for comments towards individuals who do believe in a higher being. But why? Why is throwing insults a viable option towards stating an opinion? When you do that, you are basically spitting in that persons' face and stomping their beliefs to the ground, shitting on that persons' way of life and telling them they are wrong. That being said, a lot of events in history resulted in bloodshed solely because of religion, Im not ignoring that. But ridiculing one's beliefs? That's ignorance in itself. Ignorant because of the result of hate from what would always would have been simply a discussion from two different stand-points. This is coming from someone who is one of those believers. Everyone accepts a certain something, a very certain something, into their hearts in their own way. Every living human being on this planet walks only one path: their own. What we learn while we are alive carves what we become, science and religion are two of those things.
What do you guys think?
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02-12-2014, 02:48 PM | #2 |
moonchild~
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Most people who are against opinions of a higher being are often arrogant.
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02-13-2014, 06:39 PM | #3 |
Aficionado of Awk
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
I dunno, I've seen it go both ways, it all has to do with the fanatics dewd
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02-12-2014, 03:08 PM | #4 |
the Haku
Join Date: Jul 2005
Age: 35
Posts: 4,525
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Let's prove that 2 = 3
1 + 1 = 2 2 - 2 = 0 3 - 3 = 0 2 - 2 = 3 - 3 2(1 - 1) = 3(1 - 1) Remove (1-1) on both sides. 2 = 3 If you didn't knew that you couldn't divide by zero, you may have wrongly believed that 2 = 3. No one wants ambiguity to happen. So, people hates on other people when they try to believe in things they can't prove. Last edited by Hakulyte; 02-12-2014 at 03:26 PM.. |
02-12-2014, 03:17 PM | #5 |
Snek
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kansas
Age: 34
Posts: 9,192
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
I await the day this becomes true. Consequently this means that parents can't force beliefs on their children and would likely be the end of religion and other radical beliefs with no basis in todays reality.
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02-12-2014, 03:23 PM | #6 |
FFR Veteran
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Guess what I'm going to raise my kids to be Catholic and you're going to hate them too.
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02-12-2014, 03:25 PM | #7 |
Snek
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kansas
Age: 34
Posts: 9,192
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Hate is a strong word. It is more of a disappointment in how unproductive it is to society and progression.
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02-12-2014, 03:50 PM | #8 |
FFR Veteran
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Define progression
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02-12-2014, 03:58 PM | #9 |
Snek
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kansas
Age: 34
Posts: 9,192
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Increasing the standard of living, life expectancy and technological advancements.
Would also be good to get closer to a world peace which won't be possible if the majority of people still hold onto irrational radical views. Everyone will still have their problems and difference, but at least it could be based on logic and reasoning. |
02-12-2014, 09:55 PM | #10 | |
slimy, yet ... satisfying
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 31
Posts: 1,244
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Quote:
Do you say "Wow, that's amazing, I can't believe the number of lives that guy is going to save!" or do you go "Wait a second, what are his religious beliefs...?"? just sayin |
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02-12-2014, 03:58 PM | #11 |
FFR Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Age: 28
Posts: 2,893
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
there are always going to be factors that halt or diminish societal progression. Thinking religion is the sole blame for all this diminished advancing is just as arrogant as making fun of the gay kid on the playground. not saying people here blame religion utterly and completely for all stupidity or restraint in the past, but do consider the other possibilities
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02-12-2014, 09:42 PM | #12 |
behanjc & me are <3'ers
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,051
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
A lot of this has to do with how people think and society norms. Everyone has different philosophies, and when there is a conflict of interest, there is a chance that ignorance will take place. It goes both ways. There are nonreligious people who insult religious people, just as there are religious people that insult nonreligious people, and for mostly the same reasons.
People that insult those who believe in a higher being tend to have the philosophy that believing or not believing in these beings have no impact or negative impact on our lives, and/or that we should look at reality objectively without the idea of the supernatural, and that those that do look at the supernatural might be gullible, stupid, etc. For example, one of the common issues is this: Yes, religion is not all bad, and for some people there is a benefit that they can't otherwise get, and it does have cultural significance, but that doesn't give it the right to invade other areas, such as our government and our science curriculum. That ends up imposing religion onto other people, and a lot of people get angry, and rightfully so. But the ones that insult religion probably generalize and stereotype religious people in this way. This phenomenon is never going to cease to exist, as there will always be people that are more rational and naturalistic and not accepting of the supernatural, while others practice religion to an extreme. On both sides of the argument, each side thinks it is right and the other wrong. And when you combine that with the fact that many people feel the need to express negativity to those who believe something they think is ridiculous and wrong, well you get a bunch of trouble.
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02-12-2014, 10:54 PM | #13 |
Snek
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kansas
Age: 34
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
No idea what your point is.
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02-12-2014, 10:59 PM | #14 |
behanjc & me are <3'ers
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,051
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
He's trying to say that a person's religious views doesn't affect their potential accomplishments. The best scientists don't have to be nonreligious.
And then he's trying to use that as a rebuttal for your reason as to why religion is not tolerated. But I think your point is that's the reason why some people don't tolerate religion, not that it's a valid reason to insult religion. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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02-13-2014, 04:56 PM | #15 | |
slimy, yet ... satisfying
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Quote:
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02-13-2014, 08:38 PM | #16 | |
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Quote:
You'd think I was utterly insane. We all know the Earth is not flat, so this example is easy to understand. However, as you extend the analogy further, it gets into areas that are less well-known. Everyone understands the Earth is round, but not everyone understands how evolution works. Not everyone knows how our Earth was formed, or how basic physics work, or that we are all born out of stardust, or what statistics and logic imply in various contexts, etc. It becomes less intuitive, but plenty of people do still understand all of this. And so imagine how frustrated these people are to watch everyone around them believe in things that are either outright wrong or incredibly improbable, especially when better explanations exist for all of it. Hearing people say "it's just my opinion!" is frustrating because at some point, it's not your opinion if your opinion is, frankly, wrong. Of course, telling people that they need to learn more / get educated in the underlying subjects is seen as arrogant. So in many ways, it's a lose/lose. You either have to explain a huge collection of complex frameworks to people who have little exposure to that kind of thinking (and have it fall on deaf ears), or be labeled arrogant for telling them that they are not educated enough to understand why their arguments are poor. So, in using the analogy, it's a lot like dealing with someone who thinks the Earth is flat. There's just no polite way to tell them that their stance is untenable, especially if they're heavily invested in it emotionally. Some people simply don't care. Even if they can understand the counter-arguments on a rational level, sometimes it's just easier to keep on believing in a higher power like they were before. This is especially easy to do since unfalsifiable beliefs are, well, unfalsifiable. But an atheist would say that if your belief is unfalsifiable, why are you believing in it in the first place? There are infinitely many unfalsifiable beliefs to hold -- so why this one? Last edited by Reincarnate; 02-13-2014 at 08:50 PM.. |
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02-15-2014, 02:41 PM | #17 | ||
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Quote:
Quote:
If someone rarely ever gets explanations and is just told to "discover for themselves" it makes sense that people will rather just go to other alternatives than reinvent the wheel. People who say they don't believe in evolution never say "discover for yourself". Notice how for other superstitious beliefs, there is never that "discover for yourself" aspect. They just flat out say it's true. |
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02-15-2014, 03:00 PM | #18 | |
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Quote:
What I mean is that it's really hard to debate someone when their level of understanding is so far outside where it needs to be. If you don't understand the basics of, say, math, physics, biology, chemistry, logic, statistics, etc -- that's a shitload of intuition that you simply won't have yet. So, in some cases, it's just impossible to get someone up to speed on all that intuition, because that's what years of education is for. It's much harder to make someone understand why your argument is convincing if they don't even understand the argument. You'll notice that a lot of creationists fail to understand how evolution operates, hence all the common quotes you hear which are marks of ignorance ("If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" "Doesn't the second law of thermodynamics disprove evolution?" "Something as complex as an eye can't evolve from nothing because if you remove any one part, the whole thing stops working", etc). Last edited by Reincarnate; 02-15-2014 at 03:03 PM.. |
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02-17-2014, 11:58 AM | #19 | |
This ma coo coo face
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Quote:
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02-17-2014, 12:28 PM | #20 | |
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Re: You know, Ive been thinking...
Quote:
2. In short, the general mindset (from a strident atheistic perspective) is that the others are holding society back, especially on a sociopolitical and educational level. If people are being taught that faith is a good reason to accept something as true, then it makes it much harder to develop critical thinking. It means we get a lot of blind bigotry, ignorance, abuse, and opportunity cost. We get a lot of people who are satisfied with "God did it" and they develop no curiosity to actually pursue the real answers and ask the hard questions. We get people who have been taught to distrust science who could have otherwise become brilliant engineers to help carry us forward. 3. A lot of religious people with political power also tend to push religion into the law -- people who are backed up by lots of money and plenty of constituents who share the same religious beliefs. To everyone else, it's hugely offensive, damaging, and unacceptable. What's worse is when initiatives are taken that cause a lot more harm than they're worth simply for the sake of ideology. So it all matters because we all live in the same society. Atheists would have no beef with religion if people kept it to themselves. But this isn't what we see in practice. On the contrary: many organized religions teach you to spread the word and proselytize/convert others/etc. And in many cases, a refusal to assimilate can have strongly negative consequences. Last edited by Reincarnate; 02-17-2014 at 12:42 PM.. |
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