Ingame Song Information

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

No OP 10 stays a FMO plox

[TC_Halogen]

Well, think about it. Some of the 10s in game contain streams and even an occasional burst of jumpstream of at least 150 BPM, and some are upwards of 180 BPM (Garyoutensei, Lunar Saturation, Slaytronic) - this song is only 140 BPM and really doesn't push anything hard outside of occasional consecutive 16th jumps, and of course the two sets of jacks. In comparison to 11s, this one doesn't seem to fit.

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Does anyone think that Op. 10 No. 9 should be a 10?

Great idea, Cutting Circles should be in the same difficulty as a song that you can't FC without being able to vibrate (or being VERY good at wristjacking).

PS: I dunno what you're getting at, but 180bpm+ stream is a lot easier than 140bpm consecutive jumps. I guess it's just because you haven't been a beginner for like 5+ years or whatever, but when people start out, stream generally comes first as far as patterns, and fast 16th jump jack glut things don't come until a lot later. Let alone vibrating-speed jacks.

Honestly, though, let's just move every current FMO into VC, every 12 except Revo into FMO. Maybe then some of you guys will stop complaining about how good you are at certain charts.

[DossarLX ODI]

If I recall correctly, Cutting Circles is a ridiculously easy 10. It has over 300 AAAs lmfao.

Just like how dot death has more than 400 AAAs but is still labeled VC....

Edit: I was right. Cutting Circles is definitely a 9. There is no freaking way a file that easy deserves to be a 10.

[bballa48]

Originally Posted by qqwref

Great idea, Cutting Circles should be in the same difficulty as a song that you can't FC without being able to vibrate (or being VERY good at wristjacking).

PS: I dunno what you're getting at, but 180bpm+ stream is a lot easier than 140bpm consecutive jumps. I guess it's just because you haven't been a beginner for like 5+ years or whatever, but when people start out, stream generally comes first as far as patterns, and fast 16th jump jack glut things don't come until a lot later. Let alone vibrating-speed jacks.

Honestly, though, let's just move every current FMO into VC, every 12 except Revo into FMO. Maybe then some of you guys will stop complaining about how good you are at certain charts.

I have to agree with this. Although dripping with sarcasm, he is pretty much right. Op 10 no. 9 isn't even close to a 10. I don't even know what to say.... I feel like justifying it with numbers isn't even necessary. Not only is it an 11 but it is a pretty damn tricky one.

[xXAll-ProXx]

Look at Largiloquent Dithyramb. Is there honestly a single difficult pattern immediately after the beginning megajack? No.
It's just a little long and the beginning jack can easily be AAA'd by repetition, due to the fact that it's placed in the very beginning. Op 10 starts off as a VC and persists to stay on that difficulty UNTIL the jacks, I've never been able to AAA the jumpjack section because of anxiety attacks and the fact that it comes at the end of the song and also the fact that it's pretty hard to AAA anyway. FYI 24/26 of the AAA's on the song are by people who have at least one FGO AAA. That should be enough to prove how difficult this file is as even an FMO.

Alternatively, you can compare it to any VC and see that it's more difficult.

[qqwref]

Here's the thing: to me, when people complain about how a chart should be moved down, it's the same as complaining that the game is too easy. You're basically saying "this chart is easy for me, so I want to screw over all the people who it isn't easy for" - basically just being an ass to the people who have trouble with it, and there ARE those people because otherwise the chart would never have been put that high in the first place. I never see people who are just getting into the VC-FMO FCs complaining that higher level files need to be moved down - it's always the elitist players who think that the opinions of lower-level players should be totally ignored. Difficulties exist to give an index of song difficulty for all players, not just the top 5 or 50 or 500, and it's a lot more useful to have numbers that reflect the actual difficulty of scoring on the chart than to have numbers that reflect the random whims of the people who can AAA 95% of the files in the game.

Let's look at the Op. 10 stats for a bit, shall we? It's been out for about seven months, publicly, not secret or anything, and let's see... it has a grand total of... 26 AAAs.

Twenty ****ing six.

Maybe you don't realize this, but that's a ludicrously low number of AAAs for a VC. Here are some FMOs that are both newer than Op 10 and have at least as many AAAs: Dance and Zeal (27, and under a month old), GEP (26), Arrogant Cobbler (43), Puzzle (52), Kanon Medley (41).

[MaxGhost]

Op 10 is hard. FMO for sure.

[bballa48]

Originally Posted by xXAll-ProXx

Look at Largiloquent Dithyramb. Is there honestly a single difficult pattern immediately after the beginning megajack? No.
It's just a little long and the beginning jack can easily be AAA'd by repetition, due to the fact that it's placed in the very beginning. Op 10 starts off as a VC and persists to stay on that difficulty UNTIL the jacks, I've never been able to AAA the jumpjack section because of anxiety attacks and the fact that it comes at the end of the song and also the fact that it's pretty hard to AAA anyway. FYI 24/26 of the AAA's on the song are by people who have at least one FGO AAA. That should be enough to prove how difficult this file is as even an FMO.

Alternatively, you can compare it to any VC and see that it's more difficult.

Lol, I must just be stupid or something.

I have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER AAA'd the intro to Largiloguent Dithyramb.

Maybe I really am just the worst wrist jacker of all time, but surely other people find these patterns to be murderous. Any song with a jack like that, no matter where in the song, should be an 11. Not even debatable.

Not trying to be rude (Dossar and Halogen), but you guys are entirely unable to detect subtleties in jack speed. They are all easy to you, but players like myself are very sensitive to jacks. So I implore you to trust me when I say Op 10 No 9 is an 11. Please.

[DossarLX ODI]

dot death and Cutting Circles both need to be moved down to 9 lol. Having them labeled as 10s is an insult to stuff like Fast Asleep :monkey:

[MaxGhost]

Holy shit haha Dossar ninja'd his doublepost.

Btw I can AAA Largiloquent's jack if I really focus. It's either I AAA it or I miss in it. >.>

[iironiic]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Well, think about it. Some of the 10s in game contain streams and even an occasional burst of jumpstream of at least 150 BPM, and some are upwards of 180 BPM (Garyoutensei, Lunar Saturation, Slaytronic) - this song is only 140 BPM and really doesn't push anything hard outside of occasional consecutive 16th jumps, and of course the two sets of jacks. In comparison to 11s, this one doesn't seem to fit.

I can see why one would think Op. 10 is VC worthy but even without the two sets of jacks, there are some patterns, (jumpstream for the most part) that is way too intense for a VC. There are a few VCs that have notably difficult JS patterns, but for the most part, they aren't really long enough to make them FMO worthy. We are considering a file that is practically JS everywhere with very dense jacks thrown in the mix. I'd leave it as an FMO from a subjective and objective standpoint. (I really struggled AAAing it)

EDIT: Also, don't forget about the nasty jump patterns proceeding after the second set of 48ths.

EDIT2: This is also why files with massive difficulty spikes shouldn't be in the game (like larglo, skeletor, and crowdpleaser). It makes determining difficulties impossible from an objective standpoint so we are forced to judge the difficulty based on subjectivity, which is impossible to agree on due to our different strengths.

[xXAll-ProXx]

the fast jumps immediately after the jumpjacks are also hard.
(ninja'd by Wilson).
I can't honestly believe how any VC can even come close to Op10.

Also, qqwref, you're assuming a lot of stuff. Halogen was being objective and stated the facts about Op 10. I just don't think he realized that jacks are in fact one of the most difficult patterns in FFR for most non-elite players.

[TC_Halogen]

Even from an subjective* standpoint, I still think Op. 10 is a VC, and I have -always- been god awful at high speed wrist-jacking. I personally can't see a reason why it'd be a FMO, and I'd have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but lacing a point with sarcasm doesn't make a point any better.

[One Winged Angel]

Jacks probably wouldn't seem as daunting to most FFR players as they are today if the avmiss glitch never existed and more jack-heavy files were accepted in the past as opposed to just March? 2008 and later. Even then, tons of stepartists were probably reluctant to submit jack-heavy files after the reception that Club received lol.

On a related note, difficulty spikes are fucking gay and will always cause arguments when trying to determine the difficulty of a file. My personal opinion, I don't think the jacks in Op. 10 are really enough to push the file over the FMO barrier but clearly the statistics prove otherwise.

p.s. still firmly believe Jamais Deux should be FMO just because it's only 800 notes long if you completely Disregard the VD level intro that goes for 400 notes...had it been three straight minutes of 240 bpm jumpstream and weird bursts, yeah FGO for sure, but it's like 70 seconds or probably even less...then again, you could counter with Lolo but that should probably be FMO too lmao

[DossarLX ODI]

Um yeah, I just tried Op. 10 again and got 3 random goods in the 32nd triples lol. It's been a long time since I've played the file and still manage to AAA the jacks first try (and this is with my right wrist currently in a weird condition). They aren't even that long, and if you guys think the short 16th jumpjack section right after is hard, I'm starting to doubt how there are so many good scores on heavy jacking files like bmv and Across Rooftops that have MUCH worse anchors. The jumpjacks flow perfectly fine and are at a good speed.

[bmah]

Originally Posted by iironiic

This is also why files with massive difficulty spikes shouldn't be in the game (like larglo, skeletor, and crowdpleaser). It makes determining difficulties impossible from an objective standpoint so we are forced to judge the difficulty based on subjectivity, which is impossible to agree on due to our different strengths.

I disagree, simply because I think determining song difficulties has been given overwhelming priority by the community these days, and it's nothing but changing a number - and at most, pride on a game.

To disallow charts with a distinctly uneven note density due to the inconvenience of determining their difficulty (far less important than the steps and songs themselves) is silly. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that people are making even note distribution and density a mandatory factor, which is a recipe for blandness.

If I compared land topography to song difficulty, where a mountain range is a difficulty spike and plains/prairies being an even difficulty, you can only imagine how boring it would be if the world was one big flat plain, or with nothing but some small rolling hills. You've gotta have some Mt. Everest-sized difficulty spikes/peaks. But I guess people like predictable stuff these days.

Accept variety.

[iironiic]

Originally Posted by bmah

I disagree, simply because I think determining song difficulties has been given overwhelming priority by the community these days, and it's nothing but changing a number - and at most, pride on a game.

To disallow charts with a distinctly uneven note density due to the inconvenience of determining their difficulty (far less important than the steps and songs themselves) is silly. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that people are making even note distribution and density a mandatory factor, which is a recipe for blandness.

If I compared land topography to song difficulty, where a mountain range is a difficulty spike and plains/prairies being an even difficulty, you can only imagine how boring it would be if the world was one big flat plain, or with nothing but some small rolling hills. You've gotta have some Mt. Everest-sized difficulty spikes/peaks. But I guess people like predictable stuff these days.

Accept variety.

This is true too. What I meant to say is that the difficulty spike shouldn't be too drastic to the point that a low VC becomes a high FGO just because of one pattern. Yes, it may be stepped accurately and yes, Mt. Everest may be an appealing landmark, but it doesn't have to be made to that extreme. This is where the difficulty of determining the difficulty is made essentially impossible due to subjectivity. Lune Noir offers a good amount of difficulty spike since the patterns are relatively similar. Imagine having a chart of Excite Bike with a zero framer at the 32nd arrow of the file. Would that be an FGO just because of that one arrow? Even then (presumably speaking), that file wouldn't be accepted anyways.

[bmah]

What I'm more or less saying is that the previously mentioned songs are perfectly legit. Not only that, they're memorable. Whether you liked or disliked the jacks at the beginning of Largiloquent, no doubt people will talk about the song. And whatever about difficulty to be honest...yes it may make it hard to determine the exact difficulty, but that argument doesn't hold much water: as I said, it's about the song and steps.

I tend to view a difficulty spike as a challenge in that you'd feel pretty proud of if you got past, after many tries. A big accomplishment...think Battletoads. Unfortunately, others are more pessimistic and see difficulty spikes as a bother. Maybe it's optimism that makes the difference.

[xXAll-ProXx]

Originally Posted by MaxGhost

Holy shit haha Dossar ninja'd his doublepost.

Btw I can AAA Largiloquent's jack if I really focus. It's either I AAA it or I miss in it. >.>

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