Non-animal protein sources are viable, and soy isolate does not estrogenize

[Arch0wl]

I am not vegan or even vegetarian, and I find animal welfare arguments unconvincing. But I hate having to rely on animal products because the process of obtaining protein from an animal is extremely inefficient on a societal scale, and time consuming on a practical scale. I don't like buying groceries often if I can help it, and animal products require that you buy groceries every week or two, because milk goes bad quickly and so does yogurt and eggs and pretty much every other meat/dairy product. You can buy dried milk, but you're shit out of luck if you're trying to buy meat.

So, because of my obsession with efficiency and hatred of going to the store, I've looked into non-animal proteins. I also hate spending money, and my time is also my money, which is why I hate going to the store in the first place. Ideally, it'd be (a) not dependent on an animal (b) something I don't have to go to the store to get and (c) something that doesn't cost much.

Rice protein satisfies (a) and (b), but it's not the cheapest kind of protein. http://www.amazon.com/NAKED-RICE-Org...dp/B00NBIDHP8/ This is actually a great deal, and comparable in price to Optimum 10lb protein bags, but with one caveat: grains are said to be not as 'complete' as animal protein or soy protein, i.e. their amino acid profile is not as thorough. This product actually lists its amino acid profile though, and it compares favorable to their casein product.

However, it fails (c), because it costs more than whey. Granted, whey is probably so cheap because of existing agricultural infrastructure and subsidies, but nonetheless currently a frugal person can just buy 10lb of whey protein for about $110 with free shipping.

Initially, I was worried about the viability of rice protein because the PDCAAS rating was not good. This is the digestability of the protein; you can read the concept here, with a table of rankings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein...ino_Acid_Score

I'll get back to rice protein in a minute, but notice that soy protein and casein both have a 1.0 score. Casein is usually regarded as a high-quality animal protein; unwarranted perhaps, as reason stands to show that whey is just as good, but to be on par with casein is great nonetheless.

This study compares the protein utilization of various protein sources. Soy protein has a net protein utilization of 61% while beef protein is 73% and casein is 76%. However, whey protein is 92% while milk is 82%, which would suggest this data doesn't distinguish between concentrations of protein, which would mean soy protein isolate is just as good if not better.

The upsides and downsides of soy have been hyped up by bodybuilders and pop-nutrition articles to the point where finding reliable information is difficult. The most talked-about downside is the presence of phytoestrogens (literally "plant estrogens") in soybeans; the kind of phytoestrogens found in soybeans are isoflavones. The fear of phytoestrogens is exacerbated by a few case studies where a few men ate 9-10 times the normal servings of soy and experienced effects associated with higher estrogen in men.

It took me a while to find out what a "normal serving" of soy was, but I found a conservative estimate at 1/2 cup of soybeans. A full cup is 189g. Here's the interesting thing: gram-for-gram, soy protein isolate does not have the same isoflavone content as soybeans. This chart puts it at roughly 76%.

So if 189g is two servings, you could get 249g of soy protein isolate and have the same isoflavone amount. And since soy protein isolate is nearly pure protein on a gram-for-gram basis, 29g of soy protein isolate is about 25g of protein. You could take in 214g of soy protein isolate and be within two "normal servings" of soy in terms of isoflavone content.

I've read that isoflavones may actually provide a SERM-like effect in low amounts. But this could be bullshit, because the same source repeated broscience about needing to take extra protein every 2.5 hours, when many studies show protein is in the system longer than that. Nonetheless, here it is:

"Daidzein is a key isoflavone found in soy that acts as a potent phyto-estrogen. It is structurally a very weak "pseudo-estrogen" (about 1000 times weaker than the body's primary estrogen estradiol). This is good news to the bodybuilder because weak estrogens like daidzein will compete with stronger estrogens like estradiol for available receptor sites to "bind" to. By binding to the receptor sites daidzein then "blocks" the stronger estrogens from binding to and activating receptor sites. With the daidzein isolflavone attached, estrogen receptor sites remain inactive. This inactivity further minimizes the negative effects of estrogen in the body. Many researchers believe this effect is the reason soy protein is linked to a reduction in the risk for many forms of breast, endometrial, and prostate cancer. This mechanism works similarly to the prescription drug Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate)--an anti-estrogen staple in the bodybuilding community."

The only time anyone would need to go above 250g+ of protein per day is if they were using performance enhancing drugs like nandrolone, trenbolone, supraphysiological doses of testosterone and so on. This is because these drugs can use far more protein for protein synthesis than the natural bodybuilding recommendation of 1g per lb of bodyweight. I've heard 1.5g to 2g per lb of bodyweight as a recommendation, and have read cycle logs by some lifters who chose to go as high as 3g per lb of bodyweight. This is a preposterous amount of protein and if you took in this much soy isolate per day you'd be approaching 5x or 6x the normal serving.

However, steroid users shouldn't be concerned about soy, and if anything benefit from it. First, any responsible male steroid user (female users will follow different protocol) will be controlling estrogen via an aromatase inhibitor, so estrogen is likely low to begin with. Second, steroid use makes a person far more sensitive to blood pressure elevation than a normal person, and soy is a food that can resist high blood pressure. The phytoestrogen concern is a minor issue for natural bodybuilders, but anyone using chemical enhancement has control over their hormone levels, so they don't need to worry about that.

Even if someone were worried, though, a single serving of soy (in terms of soy isolate) is about 105g of protein, so if you are a natural bodybuilder you could supplement with additional rice protein, though two servings of soy a day is not even remotely worrisome.

Lastly, soy isolate is cheap. Ridiculously cheap. TrueNutrition.com sells unflavored bulk protein powders, so I'm going to use their median prices as a reference:

Whey concentrate: $8.67/lb
Pea isolate: $8.67/lb
Rice concentrate: $8.18/lb
Pea concentrate: $7.70/lb
Soy isolate: $6.14/lb

(The soy isolate here actually lists their isoflavone content. In comparison to that chart, 225g of protein = three normal servings, not two, but that's a far cry from nine.)

Also, truenutrition's bulk orders reduce soy isolate to 5.98 per lb after ordering 15lb. So assuming ~$20 for shipping, I can get 16lb of soy isolate for the same price I could get 10lb of optimum whey -- at the 30lb level this effectively becomes another 10lb for free. I'm down with that.

What you should take away from this though is that the cheapness of plant protein does not indicate lower quality; it's as viable as animal protein, and the deleterious side effects purported from high soy consumption are not likely to be seen from soy isolate supplementation, especially if that's your only source of soy.

[Xx{Fallen}xX]

ya, but how does that stuff taste

[Arch0wl]

taste is subjective so I don't factor it into shit like this, you can get over taste anyway

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

taste is subjective so I don't factor it into shit like this, you can get over taste anyway

^ this

[Wayward Vagabond]

I'll go vegetarian and load up on soy isolate.

[SCWolf]

I take beef protein isolate and it's actually really tasty. The best tasting alternative to whey that I've had.

[kommisar]

I would need 100% dairy/casein free protein. hella $$$$$$$$$


idk how I feel about soy protein. how would it affect someone who isn't on steroids

[SCWolf]

Just get beef protein. It's not too much more expensive and there are Canadian websites like ProteinCo.ca that shit mega cheap and fast.