05-17-2019, 02:39 AM | #141 |
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Re: fuck Georgia
internalized misogyny is a thing
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05-17-2019, 03:38 AM | #142 |
Kawaii Desu Ne?
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Re: fuck Georgia
Siding with sun fan here in that I don't think a typical pro-lifer lays down in bed at the end of the day and thinks "Hmm... what are some ways I can actively subjugate women tomorrow?"
Just because an action has a certain consequence (e.g. women being subjugated due to anti-abortion laws being passed) doesn't necessarily imply that that consequence is the motivation of those that do or support such actions. In addition, the exact motivations are going to vary depending on what subgroup of people are being looked at. The motivations and exact belief system of a typical low/middle class that self-identity as a pro-lifer is going to be different than a politician in a position of power to push forward anti-abortion legislation. Similarly, there are going to be differences if you compare atheists, typical church goers, and those in a position of power in their religion. Looking at a typical person, they are going to be socialized to think that "Murder is bad!" in general. And many people are socialized to picture abortion as the "murdering" of an unborn "baby" (the quotes are intentional). This view of abortion makes it clearly "bad" if someone takes the belief "murder is bad" unconditionally without any additional thought. However, we "murder" bacteria, plants, pests, other animals for food, etc. Of course, we really know that these things typically "don't count" as murder. So I think that most self-proclaimed pro-lifers either (1) haven't really thought much about the "conditionally" of murder or (2) have thought about it and have reason to believe that abortions still "count" as murder. These reasons might not make sense, might be self-contradictory with their current belief system, whatever. I think I'm rambling and I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I guess I'm trying to say that I was once young, dumb, and naive and growing up, the notion of "murder is bad" + "abortions are murder" together gave me the belief that "abortions are bad" upon first thought when I was much younger. I know this is primarily anecdotal and doesn't speak for everyone's experiences, but like sunfan, I find it very difficult to believe that subjugating women is the primary motivation of typical people that identify as pro-life when there are much more simpler explanations. |
05-17-2019, 03:39 AM | #143 |
Kawaii Desu Ne?
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Re: fuck Georgia
Oof, almost forgot...fuck Georgia.
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05-17-2019, 07:05 AM | #144 | |
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Re: fuck Georgia
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Church going type people in general want to give off this air of naive innocence, "I just have my own innocent beliefs", but a lot of the time its a facade. They get it. I think if they really believed abortion is murder, they wouldn't use such bullying tactics and instead would offer compassion. They don't want to help the women prevent pregnancy, they want to punish them after the fact. Anyone who can't or won't think critically about this issue doesn't get a pass from me just because "they really believe it" anyway but honestly, that's not as common as you guys are making it out to be. Religious people are very subtle like this on purpose |
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05-17-2019, 07:45 AM | #145 |
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Re: fuck Georgia
Theres an execution scheduled in Alabama today that the Governor is overseeing. That's about as much as I believe that most of these people "really believe in" abortion being murder
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05-17-2019, 08:09 AM | #146 | ||||
T-Force's Rival
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Re: fuck Georgia
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and i speak as an immigrant communitiy's nightmare, dissociating from culturally/religiously held beliefs are difficult, and condemning people for not doing so is not how you solve the problem in other words, listen to your bud sunfan. |
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05-17-2019, 08:18 AM | #147 | |
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Re: fuck Georgia
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when it comes to controversial stuff I think most people here can be respectful enough about a topic without acting like a complete idiot... most of the time |
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05-17-2019, 09:33 AM | #148 |
Local Teenage Wastebasket
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Re: fuck Georgia
It's worth remembering that the Alabama bill was sponsored by a woman and signed by a woman. I've got no doubts that huge factions of men "want to control women's bodies" but framing it like that on a widespread level instead of as a political power move is really counterproductive IMO
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05-17-2019, 09:35 AM | #149 | |
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Re: fuck Georgia
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still tho its lame to compare religous intolerance to racism lol
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05-17-2019, 09:44 AM | #150 | |||||
Very Grave Indeed
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Re: fuck Georgia
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The same percentage of men and women appear to support banning abortion according to Funny's poll results there. How many of those women do you think are currently married to those men? I would put money down that it is at least half of them, probably more. Poor people frequently elect leaders whose policies directly harm poor people. This is not new, or especially compelling as some kind of argument. Quote:
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Men in power want to keep power. Empowering women creates a whole new subset of people in competition with them. I mean...you've got people passing as intellectuals with huge followings of almost entirely men saying things like, the biggest damage done to our entire modern society was the creation of birth control, because it gave women control over their own reproduction, allowing them to take that control away from men. |
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05-17-2019, 09:56 AM | #151 | |||
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Re: fuck Georgia
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05-17-2019, 10:11 AM | #152 | |||
Very Grave Indeed
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Re: fuck Georgia
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"The Catholic Church is inherently oppressive to women, and has always taken steps to ensure the subjugation of women in the Church and therefore in wider society." is a statement that I, as somebody raised, baptized, confessed, and confirmed Catholic who had 15 years of Catholic education absolutely believe to be the case. To say "Well if you substitute "The Catholic Church" for say..."Pick a race" you'll see how that statement magically becomes racist!" and like...okay, except the statement was about the group that actually does the thing the statement was about. Replacing it with a group that -does not do that- making the analogy fall apart is not actually a criticism of that analogy. Quote:
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05-17-2019, 10:45 AM | #153 | ||||
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Re: fuck Georgia
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anyway i still think it's a good thought exercise :shrug: Quote:
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Last edited by Funnygurl555; 05-17-2019 at 10:48 AM.. |
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05-17-2019, 11:23 AM | #154 |
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Re: fuck Georgia
just wanna say i stole my last point from a communist acquaintance of mine lol
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05-17-2019, 02:11 PM | #155 |
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Re: fuck Georgia
this is from alabama Yes, intersectionality is a thing and power structures are complicated. But we can't say men aren't in more control, and ultimately deciding what is happening. None of the women who voted in the alabama vote voted yes. So yes, these specific men are actually pushing this idea onto women. We can argue about theoretical blame all day but I'd rather keep that for when real people aren't having their rights fucking stomped all over This pic says all it needs to say |
05-17-2019, 02:16 PM | #156 | |
Constantly Improving!
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Re: fuck Georgia
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05-17-2019, 02:33 PM | #157 | ||
[Nobody liked that.]
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Re: fuck Georgia
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Also again, fuck those people |
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05-17-2019, 03:01 PM | #158 |
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Re: fuck Georgia
likewise
keep doing you man |
05-17-2019, 06:01 PM | #159 |
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Re: fuck Georgia
There's a bunch of things being conflated
1) Nobody is saying that all proponents of pro-life are bigots or are consciously aware of any misogynistic bias. Such bias is unconscious. We live in a patriarchal society. Certain people benefit from this in explicit terms and are aware of this. These people, I suspect, are religious officials and elected politicians, as well as (potentially) business executives. People in power seek to remain in power; this is why progressive outlooks and revolutionary thinking are scary to them. To stay in power, these people condition the rest of the populace to think a certain way. In other words, Bob and Jill from Alabama might not wish to subjugate women, but they do express political views that further the patriarchal objectives. "Life is precious" is a form of conditioning that leads people to reject abortion without explicitly confronting the misogynistic undertones behind pro-life stances. It's a simple mantra that seems unpolitical even if the discussion for the past several decades has historically been rooted in political and religious agenda. If you are pro-life you are complicit in patriarchy whether you realize it or not. 2) Women being pro-life means nothing w/r/t to this discussion because, as mentioned above, misogyny can be internalized. "Women should stop being sluts, I will never need an abortion because I am chaste." ---- she says until she accidentally gets pregnant. It is well-documented that these women will view their own unwanted pregnancy as an exceptional case that does not contradict her held beliefs (which prevents cognitive dissonance). Numerous women in the Kavanaugh case called Blasey-Ford a liar and that sexual assault as a political issue was artificially inflated by liberals. Numerous women were anti-LGBT until either they or a loved one came out. Does that make these issues any less about gender and oppression? No, both genders are complicit in upholding patriarchal beliefs. 3) No one is denying the religious experience. Religion holds valuable function in social outreach and community engagement. We are suggesting that religion is no longer needed in a modern system of morality and that religious appeals to pro-life stances should categorically be disregarded. "Thou shalt not kill" is an axiom that emerged from the Old Testament, we can't deny that. But "thou shalt not kill" is not a moral precept because it's in the Bible, it's a moral precept because it allows society to function and increases the quality of life for everyone. You can justify this commandment outside of its function in the Bible. An appeal to religion only works if you can demonstrate that the stance you take is worthy outside of the dogma of religion. "God says that life is precious because He created us" is not a valid argument because it holds no water outside of the dogma of Abrahamic faith.
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Last edited by DaBackpack; 05-17-2019 at 06:02 PM.. |
05-17-2019, 06:08 PM | #160 | ||
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Re: fuck Georgia
Internalized misogyny examples:
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-ca...QJcJFQEtegCzAs Quote:
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Last edited by DaBackpack; 05-17-2019 at 06:15 PM.. |
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