Socialised Healthcare

[hayatewillown]

Originally Posted by kommisar[os]

i guess canada could be considered a little socialist

Lol and canada is trying to leave their system, or at least the health care minister wants to. It's funny how people don't understand what it's like living in this country, as afro stated to have your rights stripped from you.

hang on a second. are you arguing against nationalized healthcare being a good thing or against the policies Obama is enacting? Obama could do the ****tiest job in the world and it wouldn't be an argument against nationalized healthcare but the way Obama/the senate went about it.

Ok, first off, IF WE WANTED TO GO INTO SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE WE NEED TO FIX THE DAMN PROBLEMS WITH THE COUNTRY NOW.

LOOK: http://www.usdebtclock.org/

I'm preaching this for that fact that the way OBAMA is trying to fix the debt, which he has barely addressed in ANY of his speeches, is going to a SOCIALIZED health care. This drops an F bomb on medicaid, private insurance agencies, and on the FREE MARKET. Maybe Canada doesn't have a free market. I wouldn't know. But I'd be damn sure that if the Government gets big enough, it will interfere with the free market and competition would be eliminated because it's not "FAIR".

on't government jobs count as jobs as well, or do they have to be provided by the Freemarket to count? Under nationalized healthcare, the doctors don't go away, the payment system between doctor and client is simply mediated by different people.

Even Obama said he wouldn't go underneath our health care. Nor will his Senate.

, my personal experience is not changing my mind here.

That is completely ignorant, and the fact that you'd rather have lazy ass people living off the rich is asinine!

I'm arguing mainly with afrobean because you have nothing worth arguing against hayate. Poor people shouldn't be taxed as much as rich people. I don't see how electricity costs for providing healthcare could magically go up without any need to actually be running more electricity. If they do, it would only be because the free market would make them that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4


No they shouldn't be taxed as much. HOWEVER- Why should hardworking paid Americans (With real jobs..)have to pay more to support people who can improve their life but don't? Answer it, because clearly you have no idea how many people are actually at this state.

[squeesfan]

Originally Posted by eMVy

Think about nationalized health care this way:

You walk into a hospital to have an appendectamy.
The hospital takes a look at thier charts and says "Sorry, we're at a deficit of the proper type of stitching for that particular part of the body."
You get turned away with an erupting appendix.

There was a story in England about a man that had an appendectamy done twice, because the first time the doctor didn't care to actually take his appendix out.
That is what nationalized health care will do.

There are ways for people to get health care that can't afford it now - It's called Medicaid.

I'm sorry, but I have to call out this post as it's ridiculously close-minded and uninformed.

All you are doing here is highlighting a horror story, the sort of stuff that makes the news. I'm sure if I looked I could find just as many 'horrors' from the American healthcare system.
Your example is also ridiculous, that sort of **** doesn't happen, just because we have a government run health care system does NOT mean every hospital is some ****ty run-down garbage heap with lack of basic items.

My family and I have only had great experiences with the NHS. As have most of the people I know. Many years ago I had an extremley rare tumour in my leg which required the NHS to fly some crazy doctor from Europe over. They sorted this out, did the operation, and had me back home within three months of it being diagnosed, which is insane considering the tumour was not life threatening. My father had a serious illness when he was twenty. Even back then, some thirty odd years ago, the doctors fixed as much as they could, and now my dad recieves the health items he needs weekly from the NHS free of charge. This would have cost our family an unfathomable amount of money if it had been through a privatised system.

Yes, I know my example is the other end of the spectrum when it comes to highlighting the goods and bads, but my point is that a nationalised health system is nowhere near as bad as many people assume it is. I am appalled by the large scale of people that think places like England have terrible health care just by looking at what fox news or some equally **** reporting service pipe up. There are always going to be pro's and cons with ANY system of healthcare. I personally do not know enough about the intricate details of the American health service to comment, but I feel I had to point out that a nationalised health system is not the end of the world, and I am sick of seeing uninformed people assuming the worst from reading bias reports of rare occurences.

[fido123]

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Lol and canada is trying to leave their system, or at least the health care minister wants to. It's funny how people don't understand what it's like living in this country.

No we're not...if the health care minister said that it's probably a bs story or he's retarded. We're not leaving it. Nobody I know in this country doesn't like the healthcare system and it works fine.

That is completely ignorant, and the fact that you'd rather have lazy ass people living off the rich is asinine!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4


No they shouldn't be taxed as much. HOWEVER- Why should hardworking paid Americans (With real jobs..)have to pay more to support people who can improve their life but don't? Answer it, because clearly you have no idea how many people are actually at this state.

A lot of people have "real jobs" yet aren't wealthy. My dad is a mould maker and he works and insane amount of hours a week including weekends, about 80-90 hours a week. He's self employed and his work contribute a lot to society. I do not live in a wealthy family. Why should some guy who inherited a couple million from his parents or landed a cushy paper pushing job that pays 250K a year not have to pay as much tax as my father?



EDIT: Converting fossil fuel power plants will obviously cost money but to me it's worth it. Fossil fuels is probably the worst way to make electricity as it emits so many green house gases. This is a step in the right direction.

[kommisar[os]]

gonna agree with squees' story. my mother has crohn's disease and remicade shots are 4000$ and this is done every 6 weeks.

living in canada, she pays 20$

in america, she would recieve no treatment nor financial relief.

[Necros140606]

i live in italy and even though flawed, our medical assistance is way better than anything we could ever get with the american way. assuming that payment implies quality of the treatment is a crucial mistake. errors will come anyways from single individuals every now and then. and if you rely on media for the quantification of these numbers, you indeed are ignorant.

[Cavernio]

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Ok, first off, IF WE WANTED TO GO INTO SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE WE NEED TO FIX THE DAMN PROBLEMS WITH THE COUNTRY NOW.

Why? Having a debt and running a deficit isn't the end of the world.

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Even Obama said he wouldn't go underneath our health care. Nor will his Senate.

You keep bringing this up as if it were a serious problem. I definitely understand how it is elitist, however, if someone feels like paying more for health services in the US through some other means, then they're going to be allowed to, (even if whatever current bill says it's not allowed, people are bitching about it so much and it counters what Obama has said, it will be changed.) The fact that people will be allowed to do this, including the president, means that there is not going to be total control of the government over healthcare. I'm sure that even if Obama were to use the regular healthcare system, he'd get preferential treatment, (whether he personally would want it or not) which would look and be pretty bad. If he instead pays for his healthcare privately, no one can say that the healthcare system is bowing down to the commie rulers of the US. Of course, then there's people like you, and he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

That is completely ignorant, and the fact that you'd rather have lazy ass people living off the rich is asinine!

You must understand a few things here:
1) I believe very, very few people are just 'lazy'. The majority of homeless people have a mental illness or multiple mental illnesses. Even drug abusers, once they've become addicted, have to fight using a will that is destroyed, to simply stop using. I understand that many people don't hold this viewpoint, but I believe those people are ignorant.
2) Many people who use social programs YOU wouldn't even call lazy. Low wage jobs are still jobs, we still need people to do them, and yet to say that these people should pay 30% of their income in taxes because otherwise they're living off of the non-lazy people, is horrible. There's also tons of labor that people do that they don't get paid for. Raising children is the best example of this.
3) You're ignorant to not consider how the distribution of wealth in a free market can be unfair.

[Cavernio]

Fido123: Tons of canadians dislike the healthcare system. Allowing private healthcare companies was a hot topic 5 years ago. The main dislike about it is that wait time are too long.

afrobean: In response to my supposedly Big Brother suggestion about how private companies could charge for the roads people drive on, you missed the point of it. See, the point was to offer a way for PRIVATE industry to charge people for the roads they drive on. The only place government would be allowed in my make-believe system would be for legislation of where and how roads can be built. They would not have any access outside of criminal investigation for where someone has and hasn't been. Furthermore, if you still think that such a system is a total invasion of privacy....I see that you use the internet. I bet you have a phone too. *gasp* you mean the phone company can choose to see every, single number you call if they want? Do you think that's terrible? Are you going to stop using your phone? Do you think its against your rights? I've never heard you complain about it, so I gather you don't care one way or the other. Personally, in order for any sort of Big Brother scenario to concern me is if my rights are going to be impeded because of it, like for example, the US don't fly list. Just because a government or industry or person has access to information about you, doesn't mean they're stalking you or even going to use it. Privacy issues are a total downside to technology, but with proper laws and legislation and if the principals of free speech are kept, no one's going to be Big Brother.

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Fido123: Tons of canadians dislike the healthcare system. Allowing private healthcare companies was a hot topic 5 years ago. The main dislike about it is that wait time are too long.

I wasn't really very politically aware 5 years ago, however I do know people including I see problem in it like wait times, and idiots going in for stuffy noses. I don't think the majority of people now want to get rid of it, rather than have those problems fixed though. It's still MUCH better than privatized health care though IMO.

[devonin]

While it's true that there are long waits at the hospital if you go with stupid problems, the reason the wait is so long for your stubbed toe and your snuffy nose is that you're being put to the bottom of the triage list under people with legitimate problems.

The possibility of a long wait in exchange for guarenteed, free, health coverage and -immediate- attention if you are in a legitimate emergency is a trade-off I'm glad to make.

[dragonmegaXX]

My grandpa died because of the Canadian healthcare system because he needed a complex operation, but they wouldnt give it to him.

He would be alive if he was in america :/

[devonin]

Not necessarily. Could he have -afforded- the complex operation in America? Even if he had been able to pay for it, would he have then been so far in debt that he might have to decalre bankruptcy?

[devonin]

I'm going to go ahead and just remove the whole CO2 sideline here...if people really want to have a discussion about that in particular, they can make a thread about it.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by devonin

The possibility of a long wait in exchange for guarenteed, free, health coverage and -immediate- attention if you are in a legitimate emergency is a trade-off I'm glad to make.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Huge response from older posts coming later... it's only about half done right now.

[devonin]

Free at the time, and free of the actual cost of the procedure. I'm well aware of the fact that I'm paying more income tax than you in order to fund it, and that's fine by me. I'd rather more infrequent-but-high cost items be subsidized personally.

[Cavernio]

I've been waiting over 3 years for a family doctor

I am still in support of our healthcare system though. I'm in support of putting more money into it since that's clearly what's needed.

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

I've been waiting over 3 years for a family doctor

I am still in support of our healthcare system though. I'm in support of putting more money into it since that's clearly what's needed.

Where in Canada do you live?

[Coolgamer]

I support single-payer healthcare. This will never happen in America thanks to lobbyists and corporate money.

To those that claim that paying a tax for healthcare is socialism, you can stop using highways, libraries, ambulances, fire services, police, national parks, and the national guard... cause, you know, your taxes pay for those too.

[devonin]

Right, but people opposed to healthcare on the grounds that they don't want to have to pay tax into services for others to use them often would argue that they'd like most of the above things you listed to -also- be privatized. So your objection of "Well what about all these things" is usually answered with "Yeah those too"

[rqm]

next time you hear a government official railing on about how terrible providing government health care for those who cant afford any private health care is, write them a letter asking if theyd like to trade health care plans with you.

anyone who wouldnt accept long waits to resolve miniscule problems while being offered essentially free, quick treatment for life threatening ailments is not the brightest. i completely support health care reform in america. i dont see how anyone who doesnt work for an insurance company can be against the proposed reform.