Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[tsugomaru]

Exactly like that. Our class had this mile competition where we had to run "a marathon", except we would run a mile each weak and the top 5 with the fastest average would get a prize. The prize wasn't some cheap pencil either, it was something worth winning. There were people who cut corners, ran 3 laps instead of 4, or just lied about their times and they were the ones who won the prizes.

~Tsugomaru

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Squeek

Oh I get it now.

The point is to pwn n00bs!!111 m i rite lol

My whole beef with the "playing to win regardless of what it takes" stance is when you choose to utilize this technique. When you're playing a random match against people you don't even know, what the hell is the point of utilizing glitches and **** to win? Why not just play? You can save the glitch-fest for fighting against friends or competing in tournaments or whatever it is you all do.

It's the same with Snaking. You can do it. I can do it. I don't do it. Why don't I do it? Because if I Snake against my friends, I'm going to win. You know how boring it is to win 100/100 matches in a row? It's so boring that the game never gets played ever again. What good is a game if you can't play it with friends? Sure you could argue that they should learn how to snake, but really, why? Why continue to learn new glitches and ignore the core gameplay elements? The game is just as fun if you refuse to acknowledge that glitches exist to be exploited.

This article doesn't address the difference between people who play games and people who play games competitively. It seems to just assume that everybody plays games to pwn n00bs!!11

Use a different example. I don't know competitive mario kart. If you read the article then it should be pretty simple to comprehend. I guess you are in that "mindset" he was talking about.

As to what you said about why do it against "noobs". Why not just stand there and let the noobs hit you, if winning too much is boring. Also if your competitive the only reason you would play noobs is for a confidence boost. Competitive people play to improve. They play to be the best they can.

I play smash with my "noob" friends all the time. I would rape them with peach 2v1 and I thought damn my peach is pretty good! After last summer I went to my school and played with my good smash friends and used peach. I played my friend Mike who is the #3 in the state at melee skillwise. Peach vs Marth. He got me to 1 stalk without me being able to take 1% away =[[. Its not just because I didnt use "advance techniques" its because I didn't know how to counter the stuff he did. Whether it be the advance techniques or not. You guys act like wavedashing or anything else makes the game unfair when it doesn't. It just adds more DEPTH to the game. What is wrong with that?

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

Exactly like that. Our class had this mile competition where we had to run "a marathon", except we would run a mile each weak and the top 5 with the fastest average would get a prize. The prize wasn't some cheap pencil either, it was something worth winning. There were people who cut corners, ran 3 laps instead of 4, or just lied about their times and they were the ones who won the prizes.

~Tsugomaru

That my friend is called CHEATING. Not using advance techniques. A better runner would start off good, run consistent for the rest of his laps and break out on his last lap. Using TECHNIQUES like when you start you know how your leaning on one leg? Most people pick that same leg up again to push themselves off the line. Well they should be stepping with their next leg. Thats just 1 racing technique to using your energy efficiently. Or when running you should be bringing your leg up across your knee to get the most distance with less amount of energy. Those are techniques even though they may sound like common sense or dumb lol. What you said was CHEATING.

[Shamo0]

There's nothing wrong with it. People just like to complain when they lose because they aren't dedicated enough to take the time to learn what good people learned. All of those people who complain and lose are in for a rude surprise when they play brawl online- Brawl online is going to have freeeking fierce competition.

I can't wait ^.^;;

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Shamo0

There's nothing wrong with it. People just like to complain when they lose because they aren't dedicated enough to take the time to learn what good people learned. All of those people who complain and lose are in for a rude surprise when they play brawl online- Brawl online is going to have freeeking fierce competition.

I can't wait ^.^;;

That makes 2 of us man. I can finally practice while at home. I don't have to drive 20 minutes to my school for competition =]

[Squeek]

I already said what was wrong with that.

I read your article. You didn't read my post.

Don't do it against random people. Save it for friends and competition. The reason nobody plays Mario Kart online anymore is because people abused the snaking glitch. That's why when it was "confirmed" to be in Mario Kart Wii, a bunch of gamers were furious and refused to buy the game, knowing what it would mean if snaking were allowed in the game.

I don't care if you do it. Just choose when to do it. That's what my post said.

You don't know if people online are playing to have fun (about 99% of the people who play games) or are playing to compete (the rest).

[Relambrien]

You know, I'd really like to make a long in-depth post on the competitive vs casual mindset, why glitches aren't necessarily bad, placing the health of the game first, having fun through competition rather than recreation, etc, but there really is no point. This argument's been beaten to death probably five times within this thread alone.

Can we add a Godwin's Law to this thread? Basically, if things start to become an argument about competitive vs casual play, glitches, or anything of the sort, the entire discussion just ceases, everyone drops the subject, and something completely different is discussed.

Please?

[l2awr]

I think we should make another thread so the "casual" gamers can see where "competitive" gamers stand. Not a thread for arguing. A thread for discussion. As for your post squeek. I read it. I didn't understand why not to use "techniques" vs noobs? If they don't put in the time why should they have any chance of winning? So we don't hurt their feelings?

For example. Soccer. I'm 5 yards outside the 18. I play for Manchester United and I am playing an American college team. I have the ability to curve the ball around the wall and into the net. This team I'm playing isn't good though and can't do what I'm about to do. Should I just pass it back to a player so we can pass it around or bend it into the goal? Well a good player would put that ball right into the goal whether they are playing a good or bad team. What if you are giving that bad team a chance and they ACTUALLY win? You know how much that hurts, to lose to the inferior player or team? Pretty bad. You know what it will do to the non better team? Push them to be better(HOPEFULLY).

[tsugomaru]

So it is okay to use steroids and drugs to increase your running speed? Oh wait, it would be cheating because you're not suppose to abuse something to enhance your performance.

~Tsugomaru

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

So it is okay to use steroids and drugs to increase your running speed? Oh wait, it would be cheating because you're not suppose to abuse something to enhance your performance.

~Tsugomaru

That is cheating. Steroids is a drug not a technique.

[Squeek]

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Squeek

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

No one is flaming lol. Your just getting upset. I asked you a question and you didn't even answer it. I'm trying to see where you are coming from.

What is wrong with using techniques against people who do not know how to do them?

Please be mature about it too lol. Don't get upset.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by Squeek

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

Fine then. I'll go all-out then. And I'm not trying to quell debates. I'm trying to quell a flamefest that's been done so many times in this thread already that there's really no point in beating the flaming horse again.

Originally Posted by Squeek

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

And the one thing that angers me more than anything else is how YOU repeatedly flame everyone here who doesn't agree with you in your subtle little ways. In case you didn't notice, you're looking down on everyone who doesn't play your way. If you would just recognize that your way isn't the best way, then there wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem as there is.

Also, I don't think that l2awr is flaming those who play casually, but those who play casually and claim that it's the best way to play, condemning competitive play because it uses "illegal" techniques. I don't care how people play, but I care when they look down on others' playstyles because they don't play the same way.

Originally Posted by Squeek

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

A competitive player strives to get better using any methods deemed legal, to win. Because that's what's fun for them. They love competition. A casual player is someone to whom playing itself is fun, and places winning and self-improvement at a much lower level. You said that winning all the time is boring. It wouldn't be to a competitive player, thus you are casual. I beat my brothers pretty much 99% of all matches in SSBM, and I still have fun. Lots of it, because I'm winning.

There are two overarching groups of players of any game: casual and competitive. If you hate competition, you cannot call yourself anything but casual.

Originally Posted by Squeek

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

When wavedashing was introdcued to Melee, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

Originally Posted by Squeek

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

I'm not going to be playing against my 5-year old brother period, because that isn't fun. Unless I'm teaching him to play, where I will teach him to arc kicks as soon as I can.

And besides, that isn't even an accurate analogy. A better one would be like this. If you're playing in a soccer match both with and against people you don't know and have never seen before, are you going to handicap yourself? No, you're going to do everything you can.

You people who condemn so-called "advanced techniques" because they are glitches are so closed-minded about what a glitch is. You automatically think it's something bad, horrible, and illegal. Well guess what? It isn't. A glitch is merely an unintended result of game code. In the case of advanced techniques, it's a fortuitous mistake. The introduction of advanced techniques increased the depth and competitive value of Melee far beyond what it could've been otherwise, with absolutely NO game-breaking effects. There was no "Instawin" button. People had to learn advanced techniques and apply them properly to win, and the variety that exists within advanced techniques helped the game so much that it's mind-boggling. Why can't you see that? Why can't you see that glitches can be beneficial, and thus shouldn't be discarded simply because they're glitches?

You don't seem to realize that how the developers made the game isn't necessarily the best way to play. See: Half-Life 2 and Garry's Mod. And also, here's a quote from Masahiro Sakurai, head developer of SSBB:

Originally Posted by Masahiro Sakurai, translated by Nate Bihldorff

But still, it’s not like I want everyone to play through every single portion of the game. I think I’d rather you played small portions of the areas you find interesting a little at a time.

Whether you choose to go solo or play with friends, you’re covered, because Brawl is about playing the way you want to play.

Sakurai himself is endorsing competitive play. You cannot claim that the developers don't want a competitive atmosphere: they want the game to go in whatever direction the community takes it.

Now, I believe you also said that you don't want people using advanced techniques in random online play, correct? Well, why would people go online to play against RANDOM people if not to compete? If you're going to focus on just having fun, there is absolutely no better way to have fun than to play with your friends. By going online, you agree to be subject to whatever your opponents throw at you, and you have no right to claim they can't do something, so long as it isn't a game-breaking glitch or other form of cheating. Glitches which help enhance the competitive atmosphere need to be encouraged, not suppressed.

I have more to say, but I think it best if I just stop for now. I'll continue in another post later.

[l2awr]

Squeek, I think you need to look at things from a different point of view. Do it to learn because you know not everything you think is right, is actually right. Thats not meant for flaming. I think looking at things from a different point of view just turns you into a better/smarter person.

Nice post Relambrian. Your way better at expressing your ideas than I am lol =\

[blindreper1179]

i come here to read about ssbb and all i see is tl;dr.

[tsugomaru]

It's not a question of looking at more than one view, it's a question of preference. It's really insulting to see people say you suck at a game just because you don't think this or that character should be in the game or if you think that exploiting glitches, yes, that's right, I said exploiting glitches, should be used or not.

I'm pretty sure that there will be glitches in this game that people will exploit, giving them an unfair advantage in the game, but hey, if that ever happens, I'll choose not to play multiplayer or competitively. But there should be no reason to see people say I suck just because I don't exploit a glitch. Using my earlier analogy (a poor one, but you'll get it), I shouldn't have to hear from people that I suck at running because I don't take steroids for running faster or cut corners.

~Tsugomaru

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

It's not a question of looking at more than one view, it's a question of preference. It's really insulting to see people say you suck at a game just because you don't think this or that character should be in the game or if you think that exploiting glitches, yes, that's right, I said exploiting glitches, should be used or not.

This I agree with.

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

I'm pretty sure that there will be glitches in this game that people will exploit, giving them an unfair advantage in the game, but hey, if that ever happens, I'll choose not to play multiplayer or competitively.

Incorrect. Wavedashing (to use the most infamous example) is not a glitch that is exclusive to some group of people. Everyone has the option of doing it. The reason it isn't an unfair advantage is because it's available to everyone.

What you're saying is comparable to saying that if you use Guard Impact against someone in Soul Calibur who doesn't know how, then you have an unfair advantage. If you can pull together strings of combos that others can't, then you have an unfair advantage. These techniques are available to everyone, which is part of the reason they're fair.

The difference between this and your steroids example is that, while both advanced techs and steroids are available to everyone, only the former has been vetted as legal by the community that runs the related competition.

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

But there should be no reason to see people say I suck just because I don't exploit a glitch. Using my earlier analogy (a poor one, but you'll get it), I shouldn't have to hear from people that I suck at running because I don't take steroids for running faster or cut corners.

And here you fall back into the imaginary "moral" line, where you assume all glitches to instantly be bad. There is no reason to assume, upon hearing something is a "glitch," that it is unfair or gamebreaking. As I've said before, glitches can be, and in Melee, are, beneficial to the game. You can't assume something is evil just because the developers didn't intend to put it there.

[tsugomaru]

And here you are assuming my morals. Nowhere have I said I thought all glitches are bad and should never be used. I will more than willingly play with people who use these glitches and I won't complain if they are beating me because of it. However, when others start mocking me for sucking just because I'm not using the glitch, then we've got problems.

Take items, the second we turn it on, I suddenly become way better at the game and my friends have some trouble keeping up with me occasionally and they complain about me cheating and that it's unfair although they too can use the items that drop everywhere.

~Tsugomaru

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

And here you are assuming my morals. Nowhere have I said I thought all glitches are bad and should never be used. I will more than willingly play with people who use these glitches and I won't complain if they are beating me because of it. However, when others start mocking me for sucking just because I'm not using the glitch, then we've got problems.

Take items, the second we turn it on, I suddenly become way better at the game and my friends have some trouble keeping up with me occasionally and they complain about me cheating and that it's unfair although they too can use the items that drop everywhere.

~Tsugomaru

If you "suck", why not get better?

If your friends are hurting feelings then you need to sit down and talk to them about that or break their nose(kidding).

[plasmix]

Ok Squeek stop saying that snaking is a glitch. It is not.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by plasmix

Ok Squeek stop saying that snaking is a glitch. It is not.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8il3gbVE1zE

THATS what you were complaining about?!? WOWWW.

It looks like it is making you move faster. Correct me if I'm wrong. Who would not want to do that? And if you are saying it is wrong because some or most people do not know how to do it, then they obviously do not care enough about the game to go learn it. If they did then they would go learn more about competitive Mario kart. I never knew Mario kart was competitive before this lol..