Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

[OmniOstrich]

Just to spite you guys:

This tier is based on a point system and tournament results, if you want links to all the tournaments I'll be happy to oblige.

top8=1/2pt
top4=3pts
win.=5pts


S Rank
1 Snake (41 top8, 35 top4, 24 wins, 245.5 pts)
2 Meta Knight (43 top8, 46 top4, 12 wins, 219.5 pts)

A Rank
3 King Dedede (14 top8, 24 top4, 13 wins, 144 pts)
4 Marth (27 top8, 29 top4, 3 wins, 115.5 pts) <6>
5 Mr. Game & Watch (29 top8, 15 top4, 8 wins, 99.5 pts) <4>
6 Wario (5 top8, 11 top4, 12 wins, 95.5 pts) <5>
7 ROB (22 top8, 19 top4, 3 wins, 83 pts)

B Rank
8 Wolf (16 top8, 15 top4, 3 wins, 68 pts) <10>
9 Pikachu (4 top8, 15 top4, 4 wins, 67 pts) <8>
10 Donkey Kong (10 top8, 8 top4, 6 wins, 59 pts) <11>

C Rank
11 Falco (11 top8, 9 top4, 3 wins, 47.5 pts) <9>
12 Ike (12 top8, 8 top4, 3 wins, 45 pts) <13>
13 Pit (8 top8, 8 top4, 3 wins, 43 pts) <15>
14 Kirby (3 top8, 10 top4, 2 wins, 41.5 pts) <16>
15 Toon Link (6 top8, 9 top4, 2 wins, 40 pts) <14>
16 Fox (8 top8, 10 top4, 1 win, 39 pts) <12>
17 Olimar (13 top8, 9 top4, 33.5 pts)
18 Lucario (5 top8, 5 top4, 3 wins, 32.5 pts) <20>
19 Lucas (6 top8, 8 top4, 1 win, 32 pts) <22>
20 Sonic (5 top8, 4 top4, 3 wins, 29.5 pts) <21>
21 Ice Climbers (5 top8, 7 top4, 1 win, 28.5 pts) <18>
22 Peach (4 top8, 7 top4, 1 win, 28 pts) <19>
23 Zero Suit Samus (5 top8, 6 top4, 1 win, 25.5 pts)

D Rank
24 Luigi (3 top8, 4 top4, 1 win, 18.5 pts) <25>
25 Sheik (2 top8, 4 top4, 1 win, 18 pts) <24>
26 Diddy Kong (8 top8, 3 top4, 13 pts)
27 Zelda (4 top 8, 3 top4, 11 pts) <28>
28 Bowser (2 top8, 3 top4, 10 pts) <27>
29 Ness (4 top8, 1 top4, 1 win, 10 pts)

E Rank
30 Mario (4 top8, 2 top4, 8 pts)
31 Jigglypuff (3 top8, 2 top4, 7.5 pts)
32 Captain Falcon (2 top4, 6 pts)
33 Ganondorf (5 top8, 1 top4, 5.5 pts)
34 Link (2 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
34 Pokémon Trainer (2 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
34 Samus (2 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
37 Yoshi (1 top4, 3 pts)


Here is the tier list based on popular belief of CURRENT metagame:

God Tier
Snake
Meta Knight

Top Tier
Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Wario
ROB
Ice Climbers

High Tier
King Dedede+
Wolf
Falco
Pikachu +
Donkey Kong

Mid Tier
Fox+
Ike
Diddy Kong+
Pit +
Kirby -
Toon Link +
Olimar
Lucario
Lucas -
Ness-
Yoshi
Peach
Zero Suit Samus -

Low Tier
Luigi +
Sonic-
Sheik +
Zelda +
Samus
Bowser -
Mario +
Jigglypuff-

Bottom Tier
Ganondorf +
Link
Pokémon Trainer
Captain Falcon -

A plus indicates possibility of climbing, a minus indicates possibility of falling.

I'd be happy to discuss any of these things with anyone who wants to debate, but I must warn you I'm armed with a 90+ page thread discussing all of this.

[DarkManticoreX2]

The bottom rankings right there is why your first teir list is off basis.

E Rank
30 Mario (4 top8, 2 top4, 8 pts)
31 Jigglypuff (3 top8, 2 top4, 7.5 pts)
32 Captain Falcon (2 top4, 6 pts)
33 Ganondorf (5 top8, 1 top4, 5.5 pts)
34 Link (2 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
34 Pokémon Trainer (2 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
34 Samus (2 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
37 Yoshi (1 top4, 3 pts)

Ever played my Samus? every played korny's jigglypuff? If you have you'd know that #1 Samus is definatley not the second worst charachter in the game, and #2 Jigglypuff has massive priority with it's pound attack that can lead to huge combos.

Just because these charachters don't perform at tournaments doesn't mean their bad. It simply indicates the lack of skill the people using them have.


As far as the popular belief teir list, theres several things wrong with it.

Sonic is too low. should at least be mid teir.
Zelda is way too low. WTF are they on crack. She's easily high teir
Olimar, toon link, pit and diddy kong should all be high teir.

Pikachu (no offense afro) is a mid teir charachter definatley not a high teir with the chance of going up.
Lucario is definatley low teir.

And to top it all off

Captian falcon is at the bottom of the list with the chance of falling? wheres he going? Underground? LOL.

[KyokiBPM600]

After my accidental Falcon Punch straight into Brandon's MetaKnights face, I vote him mid tier D<

J/kj/k :3

[OmniOstrich]

Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2

Sonic is too low. should at least be mid teir.
Zelda is way too low. WTF are they on crack. She's easily high teir
Olimar, toon link, pit and diddy kong should all be high teir.

Sonic
I'm not sure why you think this. He is fast, but all his smash attacks are not. He is a light character, has low priority, and has a serious lack of kill moves. Uair, fsmash, bair. Thats it, and thats a problem. Lucky is the only good sonic out there right now and he wins through careful spacing and shieldgrabs to combo and rack up damage. Basically if you are smart you can do that with any character.

Zelda
I would be inclined to agree with you their, strong smashes and tilts, very useful specials, although 'easily high tier' part is a bit much. I've had my skills tested by my fair share of talented zelda players, but the problem is she has a lot of bad matchups, and with the top tiers no less. MGay, Marth, G&W, Snake, all of these give Zelda AND Sheik a really hard time. She is also a relatively light character, I can find the thread with specifics if you want.

Olimar
You must recover! Serious problem there. Olimar has one of the single worst recoveries. He also has a problem approaching, meaning strong projectile characters > Olimar. His game is also very predictable, and he can be outspaced and outprioritized. Wolf, Falco, Marth, MGay, Snake, D3, Ganon, TL, all of these characters can mess up Olimar's game, and can gimp him effecively as well. Even something as simple as Kirby's cutter attack is a serious detriment to Olimar.

Toon Link
There is potential there but thus far he isn't being represented well. The strong projectile game could work in his favor for a lot of things. Range and again lack of KO moves and light weight are the things that hinder this sword holder. He does have higher priority most of the time, problem is he can't get close enough to use it. G&W, Marth, MGay, Snake, D3, Fox, Wolf, Falco (seeing a pattern here) all of these characters are very bad matchups for the cell shaded.

Pit
He could be high tier, but he has bad matchups with all the same characters (Marth, MGay, Snake, Wolf, adding Ike, and to an extent Bowser) and therefore gets knocked out early. Your other main problem is there isn't any really good players representing him. Pit is also light, and lacks KO moves. You have your Fsmash, where the 2nd hit is somewhat escapable, his bair, and then at high percentages dsmash, ftilt and fair. Really good specials, Angel Ring, shield, best projectile in the game, and then the completely awful wings of Icarius. You must recover! Ya he needs to learn to, you cant glide from low hits, and one tap clips the wings. There are a lot of ATs with pit and Undrdog is the only one that can do them all really, and thats also a problem.

Diddy Kong
dsmash and fsmash can at like 130, fair kills in the 150s if not diminished, bair nair and uair will almost never kill, dair can't kill on the stage. Ummm ya thats a MAJOR problem. The only high tier with this problem is MGay and if you think he has trouble putting on that damage then go to a scrub tournament and see what happens when you come up against a tier hugger MGay. Diddy has a very good recovery, good approaching skills, good camping skills, good aerials, decent tilts, problem is thats all he is. Good. Good is mid tier folks, because he doesn't stand out. Diddy Hump will happen to you once, after that you will always avoid it, and its really not hard to do. Nanners are good, until you start getting them used against you, which will happen, because like every other projectile you can powershield them. Except this time there are only two. Thats not going to go over well. Admittedly, Diddy also has a steep learning curve and there are still ATs being discovered for him so there is a chance for him to become more, but right now its not looking good.

Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2

Ever played my Samus? every played korny's jigglypuff? If you have you'd know that #1 Samus is definatley not the second worst charachter in the game, and #2 Jigglypuff has massive priority with it's pound attack that can lead to huge combos.

Just because these charachters don't perform at tournaments doesn't mean their bad. It simply indicates the lack of skill the people using them have.

Yes I have played korny's jiggs and yes he gave me trouble, but we had insane lag and so idk if you should count that. Any sword user is going to have more priority than jiggs, flat out.

And I never said 'low tier is garbage' all I'm saying is a top tier is naturally going to stand a better chance than a low tier.

And as far as the 'lack of skill' goes. It really isn't that. Hugs and Mango were reknowned for their samus and jiggs in melee, but what happened in Brawl? The characters weren't as good as there predecessors and so the pros switched off in favor of better chances with higher tiers. There is potential, yes, but we have no evidence to say 'jiggs and samus are better than that.'



Any more questions?

[WTFBrandon]

There is a tier, it depends if you know how to play or not.
Samus can be good if used properly, but if your facing someone that knows how to use Snake thats just as good as you, your pretty much going to get your ass raped.
Which is what hes trying to put down.
There moves have better advantages depending on the characters

But if someone wants to play?
Let me know?
I'm online right now bored out of my mind...

[Fire Lilly]

Can we PLEASE drop the subject?

We do NOT need a flame war here.

- Fire Lilly

[Gray Fox]

Opinions are awesome =] but yeah, this is for the brawl discussion thread.

[WTFBrandon]

Gray, play me :]
Games for fun?
I'm trying to get good with Luigi now so yeah.

[OmniOstrich]

Originally Posted by WTFBrandon

Samus can be good if used properly, but if your facing someone that knows how to use Snake thats just as good as you, your pretty much going to get your ass raped.

Yes, Tiers are created with the hypothetical situation of two players of the highest caliber having equal skill levels. In this situation which character would be the best? Thats what we want to know, and Tiers are a way of organizing our opinions/predictions.

[WTFBrandon]

Well, tier...
I just think it all depends on the characters.
Some characters are better against others.
All characters should have a list of who would be there biggest weakness instead of tier.
For Metaknight im pretty sure everyone knows his weakness. Same for Samus.
Anyone who can hit hard and fast.
Ganandorf for example.
4 hits from him and at around 70% we could be killed
So it all just depends on whos v.sing who. IMO

Jesus lordy, someone go online D:

[OmniOstrich]

Originally Posted by WTFBrandon

Well, tier...
I just think it all depends on the characters.
Some characters are better against others.
All characters should have a list of who would be there biggest weakness instead of tier.

What you are describing is more along the lines of matchups, which are taken into account with tier lists, but ultimately there will be a character with the fewest amount of bad matchups/weaknesses that is the best character.

[WTFBrandon]

Wanna play Omni? :]

I'm bored out of my mind...

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2

Pikachu (no offense afro) is a mid teir charachter definatley not a high teir with the chance of going up.

I would expect that massive quick attack cancel abuse would make the character more worthy of being a higher tier. Not highest, but above mid.

Don't take me as an example of what tier location my character should be. I openly admit to actively avoiding this tactic that I would expect 100% of serious Pika players would employ at tourneys.

Zelda is way too low. WTF are they on crack. She's easily high teir

Yeah, Zelda can be cheap as ****. Don't know what tier she'd be in, but she can definitely be damn cheap.

Also:

Just because these charachters don't perform at tournaments doesn't mean their bad. It simply indicates the lack of skill the people using them have.

This is what I was trying to point out. Tiers are representations of how people play them, not the actual character.

all I'm saying is a top tier is naturally going to stand a better chance than a low tier.

NO. THAT IS NOT WHAT TIERS ARE. TIERS ARE REPRESENTATIONS OF HOW THE CHARACTER TYPICALLY PERFORMS IN COMPETITIONS, NOT THE LIKELIHOOD OF THEM BEING ABLE TO WIN ANY GIVEN MATCH. They are not predictive, they are post-dictive, if that makes any sense at all. And obviously when everyone hops on certain characters that are viewed as "the best" those are gonna be the ones winning competitions, regardless of whether the advantage is real or perceived.

[OmniOstrich]

Originally Posted by WTFBrandon

Wanna play Omni? :]

I'm bored out of my mind...

Chicks coming over to swim in like 10-15min bro sorry =\

[WTFBrandon]

Soffft. :[

[Shamo0]

Well high tier characters, usually have a better developed metagame than the lower played characters. So if no one knows the good techs of a certain character and whats it capable of as opposed to alot of good techniques with another more developed character it kinda does make the other character better if only because things have been discovered.

[dogdude84]

OP updated with new rankings according to PMs I received. Working on Haiku winner now. Next contest to be announced shortly.

Sorry I haven't been on as much recently. To be honest, my social life has picked up quite a bit. I'll still try to update this as much as possible. (I'm not playing SSBB or MK on Wi-Fi right now to work on this )

[WolfXhunter]

i challenge Terminus

[WTFBrandon]

Btw, anyone with red connection for me im not playing them
Fix the connection or buy a wired one :]
If its yellow I can cope but red nodeal.
Sorry.

[dogdude84]

Poetry Contest winner announced! Check the OP to see the winning Haiku.