Atheism/Theism thread

[rushyrulz]

You're basically saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people." But a gun is the weapon that is used to kill the other person. The same can be said about religion. It's true that people do bad things sometimes without any religious motive, but there also exists people that do bad things because their religious doctrine commands them to do so. This is definitely a problem. A gun itself won't do any harm, but depending on how it's used it can be used for good purposes (protection/hunting etc), bad purposes (murder), and even self-detriment (suicide). I feel this is a very close metaphor to religion. Villains that commit gun crimes need to be stopped as do religious extremists who use their religion as an excuse to harm others.

[Cavernio]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

You're basically saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people." But a gun is the weapon that is used to kill the other person.

A gun makes it stupidly easy to kill someone and innocent people, and the only purpose of owning a handgun is to intimidate (even for your own protection it works via intimidation, a negative thing) or kill others. Religion gives no boost to killing people, nor is its sole purpose negative. I think a better analogy would be saying knives kill people, not that I think either is very good. Knives are tools used everyday, but can be used to stab someone. Religion is a tool to make people happy and, generally, only inspires people to do good. That the opposite can happen in a religion doesn't make it all bad, and does not mean that religion is like guns.
One flaw of either analogy is because most religions that I know of, at least all major religions, have a built-in safety measure of putting love first. Anyone who's a christian who says such things like homosexuality is wrong and who hounds people about it or treats them as outcasts, I would say aren't really being christian. The enemy is not religion, but ignorance and failure to be objective and putting your own ideas above someone else so much that you feel you need to persecute them.

A think pretty strong argument to what I've been saying I think would be that religion breeds ignorance and might cause people to be less empirical about ALL things, to start to place faith in things that are outside the scope of their faith. I could see that quite obviously causing serious lag in scientific advancement, which in a grand sense -and I think most people would agree- ends up causing a lot more strife. In the short term I think it's debateable what would cause the most hurt.

However, the ideas of us versus them, protecting your sense of belonging, thrusting your ideals onto someone else in a small sense or a massive scale, and taking these things so far as to cause war, doesn't stem from religion and never has. Yet these are the things that so many atheists site as to why religion is bad and wrong. Religion helps cause wars as much as any culture causes wars.
I'm not sure I see much of a difference in saying religion causes wars to saying (most) religion prevents wars by virtue of the harmonious values they all teach, in terms of misrepresenting the impact religion itself has on the world.
I think that if you could magically remove, and keep removed, all religion you'd have more peace for about a generation before the world would settle down and create new, non-religious groups to become strongly associated with because that's what people do, and shit would hit the fan.

[Syhto]

This is painful to my eyes.

[Choofers]

Some mormon missionaries came to my house today. I was still half asleep when I talked to them, but now I own a copy of the book of mormon. Time to read this beast.

[JJTrixX]

@ rushy: I agree blind-faith isn't justifiable. My faith is based on knowledge, truth, and feeling, not because I am loyal to a religious establishment or human authority but because i understand what God is. The meaning behind God's true essence and message is more important then the actual term "God". A word is just a word. I do not believe in forcing ideologies of any kind on anyone because not only is it wrong, but it's uneffective. People must come to an understanding themselves(voluntarily), only then will they reach a higher plane in life.

What i find fascinating about most atheists is that they claim to be so intelligent and so superior to everyone else when really, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Atheists look down on people because they put themselves on a pedestal. They have yet to surrender their ego. It seems that they have an insecurity with authority in general, not just a Godly-authority, but any authority for that matter. For this reason, it's harder for them to understand the importance of putting others before themselves. They don't believe in God because they do not understand God. They have not found God because they do not search for God. They might have searched at one point and gave up searching(maybe due to a drastic dissapointment or unfortunate experience in which they put blame onto God), or just don't care enough to do so. This doesn't mean that God does not exist inside of them. God exists in everyone. Do I think atheists are bad people? Absolutely not. Do I think they are currently lost? Absolutely.

I try my best not to judge others for what they believe or what they do, but when i understand a certain truth, it is my obligation as a 'good' human being to help and share this truth with others so that one day they may come to a realization for the better. I will share what I know and those who chose to listen, will do so. Those who chose not to listen, will do just that. This is everyones God-given right to freedom: freedom of choice. I will still love you either way because you are all my brothers and sisters.

Atheists are just one step behind because they look for 'what they think' is definitive evidence and 'their idea' of detailed science to answer all their questions and to fill their empty void. One day they will realize that all of it comes from God. God is the evidence and the science. Everything in all corners of every dimension within the universe was created by God. God is the ultimate Creator. When you become closer to God, the rest will fall into place and everything will make more sense to you.

I understand that atheists and theists are the same because they all came from the same source. We were created as equals and in Gods image with the incredible gift of free will. Free will is what creates the illusion of individualism and it is only through faith can you become one with the source. We will never know everything, and we were created that way, not to know everything. You can learn mass amounts of information every day, more so then the most knowledgable human on earth, and still you will only know but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the amount of information known in the universe. This is why faith is not only beneficial, but necessary. Do not confuse blind-faith with knowledge-based faith. The good will come with the bad, as do the highs with the lows. Open your minds and you will see. Seek and you will find. Ask, and you shall recieve. Think with your minds and feel with your hearts. Then, will you be guided onto the path of the highest level of consciousness.

-I agree with everything Cavernio has said in posts #161 and #164 and she claims to be an atheist.

[Choofers]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

@ rushy: I agree blind-faith isn't justifiable. My faith is based on knowledge, truth, and feeling, not because I am loyal to a religious establishment or human authority but because i understand what God is. The meaning behind God's true essence and message is more important then the actual term "God". A word is just a word. I do not believe in forcing ideologies of any kind on anyone because not only is it wrong, but it's uneffective. People must come to an understanding themselves(voluntarily), only then will they reach a higher plane in life.

What i find fascinating about atheists is that they claim to be so intelligent and so superior to everyone else when really, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Atheists look down on people because they put themselves on a pedestal. They have yet to surrender their ego. It seems that they have an insecurity with authority in general, not just a Godly-authority, but any authority for that matter. For this reason, it's harder for them to understand the importance of putting others before themselves. They don't believe in God because they do not understand God. They have not found God because they do not search for God. They might have searched at one point and gave up searching(maybe due to a drastic dissapointment or unfortunate experience in which they put blame onto God), or just don't care enough to do so. This doesn't mean that God does not exist inside of them. God exists in everyone. Do I think atheists are bad people? Absolutely not. Do I think they are currently lost? Absolutely.

I try my best not to judge others for what they believe or what they do, but when i understand a certain truth, it is my obligation as a 'good' human being to help and share this truth with others so that one day they may come to a realization for the better. I will share what I know and those who chose to listen, will do so. Those who chose not to listen, will do just that. This is everyones God-given right to freedom: freedom of choice. I will still love you either way because you are all my brothers and sisters.

Atheists are just one step behind because they look for 'what they think' is definitive evidence and 'their idea' of detailed science to answer all their questions and to fill their empty void. One day they will realize that all of it comes from God. God is the evidence and the science. Everything in all corners of every dimension within the universe was created by God. God is the ultimate Creator. When you become closer to God, the rest will fall into place and everything will make more sense to you.

I understand that atheists and theists are the same because they all came from the same source. We were created as equals and in Gods image with the incredible gift of free will. Free will is what creates the illusion of individualism and it is only through faith can you become one with the source. We will never know everything, and we were created that way, not to know everything. You can learn mass amounts of information every day, more so then the most knowledgable human on earth, and still you will only know but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the amount of information known in the universe. This is why faith is not only beneficial, but necessary. Do not confuse blind-faith with knowledge-based faith. The good will come with the bad, as do the highs with the lows. Open your minds and you will see. Seek and you will find. Ask, and you shall recieve. Think with your minds and feel with your hearts. Then, will you be guided onto the path of the highest level of consciousness.

-I agree with everything Cavernio has said in posts #161 and #164 and he claims to be an atheist.

Cavernio is a female.

ps

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[JJTrixX]

My apologies to Cavernio, I meant "she".

Choofers, what do you mean by "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods..."?

I can't dismiss that which I do not fully understand. I have not studied any one religion to the fullest to be able to discredit or dismiss any God associated with it. I am a monotheist, and if multiple religions are also monotheisms, then maybe they all believe in the same God but worship that God a different way due to conflicting practices brought up by different cultures. People of different religions always dispute on the semantics of God because most religionists are loyal to their particular religion and aren't open to listen to other beliefs if it doesn't perfectly coincide with thier own. That's not to say that all people of that religion are this way. Nobody is perfect, so there will always be a handful of those that are part of a religion that do things the 'wrong way'. And because those 'wrong-doers' are associated with a particular religion, the naive put the blame of that one person onto the entire religion and make that religion look horrible or 'wrong'.

This going back to what Cavernio was saying, It isn't the religion that causes the deaths of countless people, but the people are the cause of their actions. Rushy also touched on this by mentioning that guns don't kill people, people kill people. This is exactly the case. The guns aren't to blame, for the guns are inanimate objects. The people who(with clouded moral judgment) used the guns to kill are to blame. Not to be funny but this why you never see a 9mm being prosecuted in a court of law stand trial before a judge waiting to be anounced its verdict. Instead, it is always the man or woman behind the shooting of the 9 mm that is put on trial.

Besides, all I have spoken on was the position of atheism and theism, which is the focus of this thread, is it not?

I believe, nay...I know a true theist is closer to the answer in life he/she is looking for then a true atheist is. Although neither is any better of a person then the other is.

Another thing to point out that we all can agree on is that atheists have much less restrictions then theists do. Think about that....i will expand on this statement upon request if need be

[Choofers]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

My apologies to Cavernio, I meant "she".

Choofers, what do you mean by "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods..."?

I can't dismiss that which I do not fully understand. I have not studied any one religion to the fullest to be able to discredit or dismiss any God associated with it. I am a monotheist, and if multiple religions are also monotheisms, then maybe they all believe in the same God but worship that God a different way due to conflicting practices brought up by different cultures.

Except you're understanding the quote backwards.

You're a Christian, so I'm assuming you believe in Yahweh? Why don't you believe in, say, Allah, or any Hindu gods? Is it because your faith requires you to believe in the single Christian god? Or is it for some other reason? And this works inversely for any other religion. If you believed in the Islamic god, you would not believe in the Christian god.

Not every monotheistic religion believes in the same god. If you were to walk to a Muslim and say that your Christian god is the same as their Islam god, they would most likely be offended.

[Mollocephalus]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

I believe, nay...I know a true theist is closer to the answer in life he/she is looking for then a true atheist is. Although neither is any better of a person then the other is.

And this is yet another completely baseless assumption. Can you please explain what is the meaning of life? Do you actually believe that there is a specific meaning for life - a meaning which you are already well aware of - and not one that people have to discover inside themselves, changing from person to person, based on their different experiences with life...? because for being someone who likes to follow the comforting stances of religion diktats, this is a pretty sad and massificating thought.

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

Another thing to point out that we all can agree on is that atheists have much less restrictions then theists do. Think about that....i will expand on this statement upon request if need be

I'm not really getting what you want to say here, try to elaborate.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

What i find fascinating about most atheists is that they claim to be so intelligent and so superior to everyone else when really, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Atheists look down on people because they put themselves on a pedestal. They have yet to surrender their ego. It seems that they have an insecurity with authority in general, not just a Godly-authority, but any authority for that matter.

I'd argue that this is totally wrong -- if atheists tend to get snippy, it's because they get fed up trying to argue with people who aren't interested in argument, or who argue that facts are just opinions and ignorance is as good as knowledge. It's not.

Lots of good points were offered to you earlier and you disregarded them completely. That's going to upset people who are interested in having an honest debate.

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

For this reason, it's harder for them to understand the importance of putting others before themselves.

This couldn't be further from the truth, and if anything, there are plenty of cases of religion leading to extraordinarily levels of selfish justification and oppression of others (not to mention hypocrisy). Being an atheist doesn't prevent one from putting others before themselves because, again, we don't get our morals from any "God" but through purely secular means (as does everyone else in the end, whether they realize it or not).

I'd argue that if you're acting moral to others only because of your religion (as opposed to something intrinsic to simply getting along as fellow humans), that's a notch below ideal par.

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

They don't believe in God because they do not understand God. They have not found God because they do not search for God. They might have searched at one point and gave up searching(maybe due to a drastic dissapointment or unfortunate experience in which they put blame onto God), or just don't care enough to do so. This doesn't mean that God does not exist inside of them. God exists in everyone. Do I think atheists are bad people? Absolutely not. Do I think they are currently lost? Absolutely.

They don't believe in God because there is no evidence for God, and the things you think God is needed to explain can actually be explained through better means. God is a logical construct we understand very well, and it poses some serious problems when it comes to the truth value of things. Again, read the link I posted earlier about the dragon.

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

I understand that atheists and theists are the same because they all came from the same source. We were created as equals and in Gods image with the incredible gift of free will. Free will is what creates the illusion of individualism and it is only through faith can you become one with the source. We will never know everything, and we were created that way, not to know everything. You can learn mass amounts of information every day, more so then the most knowledgable human on earth, and still you will only know but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the amount of information known in the universe. This is why faith is not only beneficial, but necessary. Do not confuse blind-faith with knowledge-based faith. The good will come with the bad, as do the highs with the lows. Open your minds and you will see. Seek and you will find. Ask, and you shall recieve. Think with your minds and feel with your hearts. Then, will you be guided onto the path of the highest level of consciousness.

This argument is silly and I'm not even going to bother addressing it because I don't care enough -- but you say we're all created as equals in God's image. Does this imply you don't accept evolution or that Earth was formed via accretion?

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

Atheists look down on people because they put themselves on a pedestal. They have yet to surrender their ego. It seems that they have an insecurity with authority in general, not just a Godly-authority, but any authority for that matter. For this reason, it's harder for them to understand the importance of putting others before themselves,

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

Nobody is perfect, so there will always be a handful of those that are part of a religion that do things the 'wrong way'. And because those 'wrong-doers' are associated with a particular religion, the naive put the blame of that one person onto the entire religion and make that religion look horrible or 'wrong'.

I'm surprised that you would generalize atheists like this, but then in your next post talk about religious generalization as a bad thing. Your preconceived notions about how atheists act are not really much better than the generalizations others have against a various religion.

Atheism is nothing but a lack of a belief in a higher power, which in and of itself is just as harmless as theism. They are nothing but concepts, and everyone who has an opinion for a certain concept does not think the same way. It should be obvious to anyone that just because you have a stance on a certain idea, that everyone else who shares that similar stance is not a mere clone, and that judgements on people should be on a case by case basis. It really doesn't help either party to judge each other just by the beliefs they have on a single concept, if anything, it just pulls people apart.

[adlp]

Originally Posted by Choofers

Some mormon missionaries came to my house today. I was still half asleep when I talked to them, but now I own a copy of the book of mormon. Time to read this beast.

awesome dude i know some Elders right now that are serving in the Las Vegas west mission that were in my congregation from last year in DC. i can't remember their names though :/

this is probably what they are going to do now: since they planted a BoM on you (and probably gave a pass-along card that says mormon.org/faq on it too) they will come back again in like a week or so to follow up and ask if you read anything or have any questions

hopefully these guys are all star missionaries that have studied hard so they can answer all the tough questions you probably have as well as they can.

also protip: make them do service for you. sometimes during my mission my companion and i would get really bored while knocking doors and getting turned down that we started volunteering to mow lawns or to wash cars or something. even if the person wasn't interested in the message, we were still providing service and that's what was fun.

[Choofers]

Originally Posted by adlp

awesome dude i know some Elders right now that are serving in the Las Vegas west mission that were in my congregation from last year in DC. i can't remember their names though :/

this is probably what they are going to do now: since they planted a BoM on you (and probably gave a pass-along card that says mormon.org/faq on it too) they will come back again in like a week or so to follow up and ask if you read anything or have any questions

hopefully these guys are all star missionaries that have studied hard so they can answer all the tough questions you probably have as well as they can.

also protip: make them do service for you. sometimes during my mission my companion and i would get really bored while knocking doors and getting turned down that we started volunteering to mow lawns or to wash cars or something. even if the person wasn't interested in the message, we were still providing service and that's what was fun.

they actually came by to talk to my roommate, who is a member of the mormon church rofl. if I was more awake at the time, I would have talked to them but I woke up literally 10 minutes before they got there.

[Reincarnate]

lol, complete bullshit, dude

[devonin]

Oh God, this thread.

[BahamutZER0]

I didn't do any more than barely glancing at this page.

Whether or not a deity actually exists has no impact whatsoever on whether or not people choose to behave morally, which is what actually matters. All the other ambiguities about how you're going to define morality aside.

What that argument is actually about then is that believing in a deity (presumably, your deity in particular, in the general sense and not actually calling someone out) causes people to act morally. This is something akin to pascal's wager, where we should choose to believe something for utilitarian benefit.

As soon as you introduce the ambiguity of what is 'moral' into this question, all the problems with pascal's wager apply here. The easiest ones being: 1) belief is not a conscious choice, 2) utilitarian benefit to a belief does not render it true

[devonin]

Believing in a deity has been used as a justification for more immoral behaviour than enlightened self-interest ever did.

And even the positive moral choices that people adopt because of religion aren't being done out of a sense of understood rightness, they are being done because they have been threatened with damnation if they don't follow the rules.

[Poison-]

Originally Posted by devonin

Believing in a deity has been used as a justification for more immoral behaviour than enlightened self-interest ever did.

And even the positive moral choices that people adopt because of religion aren't being done out of a sense of understood rightness, they are being done because they have been threatened with damnation if they don't follow the rules.

THIS. Holy shit.

[JJTrixX]

Originally Posted by devonin

Believing in a deity has been used as a justification for more immoral behaviour than enlightened self-interest ever did.

Summary List Of The Commandments Of Jesus Christ
I. The Universal Moral Law
A. The Law Of Love
"First, love God your Creator more than anything
else. Then, love all other people the same as you
love yourself."
B. The Ten Commandments
1. "Do not put anything ahead of God your Creator."
2. "Do not make or worship idols."
3. "Do not take the name of God in vain."
4. "Take one day of complete rest each week, in honor of God."
5. "Honor your father and your mother."
6. "Do not commit murder."
7. "Do not commit adultery."
8. "Do not steal."
9. "Do not tell lies against anyone."
10. "Do not covet other people's possessions."
C. The Golden Rule
"Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated."
II. The Other Commandments Of Jesus
1. "FORGIVE EVERYBODY OF ALL THEIR OFFENSES AGAINST YOU."
(Forgive, and be forgiven.)
2. "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN."
3. "ABIDE IN ME, AND LET ME ABIDE IN YOU."
4. "LET PEOPLE SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS." (Do not hide your light
under a basket.)
5. "END DISPUTES QUICKLY."
6. "WHATEVER CAUSES YOU TO SIN, GET RID OF IT."
7. "DO NOT SWEAR OATHS AT ALL."
8. "DO NOT RETURN OFFENSE FOR OFFENSE." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "GIVE WHAT PEOPLE ASK OF YOU, AND GIVE MORE THAN IS REQUIRED."(Go the extra mile.)
10. "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES AND THOSE WHO WORK AGAINST YOU."
11. "GIVE TO THE POOR TO PLEASE GOD, NOT TO GAIN APPROVAL
FROM OTHER PEOPLE."
12. "PRAY PRIVATELY AND SIMPLY, NOT TO IMPRESS OTHER PEOPLE."
13. "MAKE YOUR PRAYERS BE LIKE THE LORD'S PRAYER."
14. "WHEN YOU FAST, DO IT SECRETLY, NOT FOR SHOW."
15. "STORE UP YOUR TREASURES IN HEAVEN, NOT ON EARTH."
16. "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT YOUR MATERIAL NEEDS."
17. "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE FUTURE."
18. "MAKE GOD YOUR HIGHEST PRIORITY, AND HE WILL TAKE CARE OF ALL YOUR NEEDS."
19. "DO NOT JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "DO NOT GIVE HOLY THINGS TO DOGS OR CAST YOUR PEARLS
BEFORE SWINE."
21. "ASK GOD FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO HAVE." (Seek, and ye shall find.)
22. "FEED THE HUNGRY, CLOTHE THE NAKED, SHELTER THE HOMELESS, COMFORT THOSE IN DISTRESS."
23. "FOLLOW THE NARROW PATH TO LIFE." (Enter by the narrow gate.)
24. "BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS."
25. "EXERCISE POWER OVER UNCLEAN SPIRITS."
26. "LOVE LITTLE CHILDREN, DO NOT DESPISE THEM."
27. "DO NOT TAKE THE TITLES 'MASTER' OR 'FATHER' FOR YOURSELF."
28. "RESOLVE DISPUTES IN AN ORDERLY WAY, LIKE THIS . . . "
29. "DO NOT OPPOSE OTHER BELIEVERS IN CHRIST WHO ARE NOT IN YOUR GROUP."
30. "HAVE TOTAL FAITH IN GOD FOR EVERYTHING."
31. "BE LIKE THE GOOD SAMARITAN." (Go, and do likewise.)
32. "LOVE OTHER PEOPLE AS I HAVE LOVED YOU"
33. "EAT BREAD AND DRINK WINE IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME."
34. "WASH ONE ANOTHER'S FEET."
35. "BE MERCIFUL."
36. "GO AND TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM."
37. "KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
38. "BE PREPARED FOR YOUR MASTER TO RETURN."

Speak for yourself my naive friend. devonin, I ask of you to name but one of the teachings of Jesus Christ listed above in which you honestly consider "immoral behaviour".

I would expect such an intelligent atheist such as yourself to understand that surely there are people in this world that do not hold true to the moral teachings of God, but yet publicly boast about how much of a Christian/Judiast/Islamist they are. Most(not all) religions preach a "morally just" and "positive" message that is spiritually enlighteneing because it does not come from man, it comes from God.

When a member of the U.S. Senate takes a bribe of $6 million to vote on a bill against the peoples' interest, but for the profit of a fortune 500 company, the entire Legislative branch is not to blame. The greedy Senator who illegally took a bribe for his own selfish benefit is to blame.

When you shoot and kill an innocent man with a gun, the gun is not to blame. The person who shot and killed the innocent man is to blame.

When a man decides to ingest a gallon of Clorox bleach to end his life, the gallon of Clorox bleach is not to blame, but the man who made a choice to give up on life and (possibly) commit suicide is to blame.

Religion is not to blame, people who commit immoral acts(that usually contradict their religious beliefs) are to blame.

Something you and many others can learn is that it is OK not to know something. It's OK not to know everything. It is OK to make mistakes. You can admit not knowing by saying "I don't know" and it doesn't make you any less of a person. You can also make mistakes because EVERYONE makes mistakes without exception. The key is admitting when you've made them because when you do, you are realizing that you have made a mistake and you know that you shouldn't repeat it, for the benefit of yourself and for others. If you can't admit your mistakes, you just keep repeating them and the world does not become a better place because of it.

Your so-called "enlightened self-interest" is exactly what you say it is, "self-interest". I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your position but I'd rather live in a world with "collective interest" where I can be amongst friends and family then live in a world where everyone is focused on their own personal "self-interest".

[devonin]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

Speak for yourself my naive friend. devonin, I ask of you to name but one of the teachings of Jesus Christ listed above in which you honestly consider "immoral behaviour".

You've listed a bunch of positive things, and said 'There, show me one of those that aren't positive' which is ridiculous, and unfalisifiable and has no place in CT. You want to see a teaching of Christ that I consider immoral?

Ephesians 6:5-6

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

There's one. It's even New Testament.

Your so-called "enlightened self-interest" is exactly what you say it is, "self-interest". I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your position but I'd rather live in a world with "collective interest" where I can be amongst friends and family then live in a world where everyone is focused on their own personal "self-interest".

You don't understand my position. Enlightened Self-Interest is a 'thing' not just a couple words strung together. The 'Enlightened' part is the part you aren't including in your condemnation of my position. Enlightened Self-Interest has no problem with your collective interest, that's basically what it is: If you acted from pure self-interest in isolation, decision to decision without considering the long-term consequences, you would swiftly find yourself in a very poor position indeed.

Part of Enlightened Self Interest includes making selfless sacrifices yourself, because of the long term benefits of doing nice things for those you care about, and by doing nice things, encouraging people to be nice to you in turn. It is the secular version of 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'

Something you and many others can learn is that it is OK not to know something. It's OK not to know everything. It is OK to make mistakes.

There is a difference between 'it is okay to not know everything' and 'it is expected for you to accept that some things are UNKNOWABLE and also to believe them anyway.'

And secular humanism is far more forgiving of 'mistakes' than the church is. Even the worst damnations we can visit upon someone in their earthly self pales in comparison to an eternity.

I would expect such an intelligent atheist such as yourself

I'm not an atheist.