TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

[dAnceguy117]

KgZ

Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2

So I thought of a way to ruin this game

does it involve you playing ninja gaiden?

[thesunfan]

alright manti, I'll bite, what is it?

[DarkManticoreX2]

I think I'm going to run it by fojar before I put it in the thread. It would very much take away the spirit of the game so to speak.

[thesunfan]

figured this was a *~Mantiploy~* to gauge reactions, but if you think you've actually found something, then yeah, run it by FoJaR.

[FoJaR]

you can do whatever you want.

[FoJaR]

so i'm realizing that all the powers are just as good, so i'm removing the major/minor distinction.

[FoJaR]

it's all one big power pool ladies and germs.

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by thesunfan

figured this was a *~Mantiploy~* to gauge reactions

hahaha I thought so too

[DarkManticoreX2]

Na day 1 strats are usually legit. It's not quite as good now since Fojar removed the major/minor distinction.

Anyway here's the idea: The main difficulty with this game is knowing when to trust/betray your teammate. If we can maximize the powers we get out of that scenario we stand a pretty good chance at winning.

That being said how do we maximize powers? We don't know who's going to be paired with who and we can't talk to them once we do!

We create a hierarchy. ex: the player list.

1. V
2. jrodd
3. dAnceguy
4. BDN
5. KgZ
6. Manti
7. mellon
8. TPS
10. CHARU
12. Riot
13. lito
14. rune
15. Gradiant
16. sunfan
17. Tokzic
18. YMIA
19. Guest
20. psychoangel

The thought here is to plan for the future. It is my opinion when two players get paired up, they look at this list and whoever has the higher number betrays, while whoever has the lower number trusts. This guarentees powers get out into play. The more powers that get into play, the more likely it is for the humans to be successful, because as a whole we have more players and should win more of these battles then we loose.

[DarkManticoreX2]

And obviously we flip the list the next day phase so if V was a wolf he wouldn't be guarenteed two powers.

[dAnceguy117]

that's the game-ruining strat? more like "gives a slight edge maybe sort of"

humans would get roughly 3/4 of the powers, sure, but who's to say those powers will be used effectively?

what if some humans don't comply?

why give a power to someone who looks really wolfy?




I don't hate this idea but I'm not even so sure it's optimal

[DarkManticoreX2]

Originally Posted by dAnceguy117

that's the game-ruining strat? more like "gives a slight edge maybe sort of"

humans would get roughly 3/4 of the powers, sure, but who's to say those powers will be used effectively?



what if some humans don't comply?

why give a power to someone who looks really wolfy?




I don't hate this idea but I'm not even so sure it's optimal

I toned it down from ruin to "breaks the spirit of the game". Yes this isn't going to catch the wolves, but it should skew powers to the humans. Which in the end should result in the same thing.


If humans don't comply, obviously it doesn't work. We can always tweak who gets the power though in one situation by saying something like we don't want sunfan to have a power because we think he's a wolf. whoever's partnered with him should betray him and he should trust.

[Vendetta21]

the problem with game theory strategies is that as soon as someone reveals the strat it becomes highly gameable.

people need to take into account that there exists a collective action problem wherehumans need powers and therefore need to trust, but i think it ultimately comes down to a personal decision of "do i feel i can trust this person?"

trying to get into it much more than that will cause people to lose sight of the bigger picture

yes i understand the desire to alainbryden this situation but i garuntee any publicly stated strategy will be flawed.

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by DarkManticoreX2

We can always tweak who gets the power though in one situation by saying something like we don't want sunfan to have a power because we think he's a wolf. whoever's partnered with him should betray him and he should trust.

smart. I think I like this.

Originally Posted by Vendetta21

trying to get into it much more than that will cause people to lose sight of the bigger picture

yes i understand the desire to alainbryden this situation but i garuntee any publicly stated strategy will be flawed.

I wanna say I get what you mean, but the strat is pretty simple. if anything I think it puts less focus on the dilemmas and more focus on normal-style day phases. it doesn't really seem game-able for a wolf team, because as long as the humans comply, there's no counter in terms of powers.




if this is gonna be a big deal let's decide "for or against" quickly please. too much discussion about this seems like a waste of time.

[Vendetta21]

Originally Posted by dAnceguy117

if this is gonna be a big deal let's decide "for or against" quickly please. too much discussion about this seems like a waste of time.

Yes to waste of time. And no to simple. I barely got through everything Manti said before I knew it was somehow gameable by wolves. I know the problem trying to be solved is complicated enough that one can make a pretty quick Bayesian inference that a publicly stated strategy will have a loophole of some sort, even if I can't find it immediately.

[Tps222]

I was Jrodd's partner and I trusted him.

[Vendetta21]

My point is the two classes of problems we deal with in this game are pretty complicated. And you have the problem of getting everyone to adhere. What if someone defects from the group strat on the basis that they don't trust the rankings provided by Manti because they don't trust Manti? I think idealist players have this vision that you can get the whole group to rally behind a strategy. You can't unless it literally ensures victory, I have so rarely seen it happen.

It seems much simpler to advise people to make a case-by-case trust call if they think their partner is human and then focusing on things that seem weird or out of place over time.

[mellonxcollie]

I can see where both V and Manti are coming from. It does seem like we might need some sort of system, considering that almost no players got powers when we just trusted/betrayed at random. At the same time though, this plan does seem very open to wolf attack, and sticking to a strict list format might be a bad idea if we've got players who are obviously wolfy.

[Charu]

I have to go with V on this. I think controlling the betray and trust aspect isn't going to be beneficial or as clear cut because of what V brought up. How do I know this list isn't made by a wolf wanting to lure the humans so that they would be giving powers to the wolf? How do I know that the person I'm paired up with will stick to the plan?

[DarkManticoreX2]

The whole point of the plan is for everyone to stick to it so we accumulate the most powers possible.

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie

At the same time though, this plan does seem very open to wolf attack, and sticking to a strict list format might be a bad idea if we've got players who are obviously wolfy.

How is it open to wolf attack? You put a blanket statement over the idea without offering any counterpoints or areas to improve. Take the extra step and support your point so I can address issues with the plan and fix them (or say yeah this isn't going to work). You're just naysaying and it adds nothing to the conversation except saying hi.

like I already told dance, If we have a player we see as highly suspect we can designate them as a "forced truster" in whatever relationship they show up in. We can only do this once or twice per phase though because what happens if those two people show up in the same dialemma.

Originally Posted by Charu

How do I know this list isn't made by a wolf wanting to lure the humans so that they would be giving powers to the wolf?

Because Fojar made that list.

Originally Posted by Charu

How do I know that the person I'm paired up with will stick to the plan?

You don't, but if you're supposed to get a power and you don't get one, you report the shit out of your dialemma partner and we investigate.